Should I become Lutheran?

[JonNC]

JonNC:

explore the Lutheran Confessions, particularly the Augsburg Confessions and the Apology, and the Small Catechism

These confessions are analogous to Peter standing in front of Jesus to block him from going to Jerusalem and to the cross; they are redefinitions of how He ought to be, because the Protest is that Jesus is making a mistake with Catholicism / Orthodoxy.

That’s an oddity considering that lutheran theology is a theology of the cross, but you are welcome to your opinion.

No crucifixes in Lutheran or Protesting churches - symbolically their schema does not seem to follow Jesus onto the cross but turned salvation into a judicial rendering.

You’re welcome to your opinions, but not to your own facts. Lutherans regularly have crucifixes in their sanctuaries and in their homes. My most treasured possession from my dad is the crucifix he wore each Sunday as a pastor.
I will not contribute into any attempt to make this thread a debate, but I will dispute false statements such as yours here.

 

[lilypadrees]

@John_Martin, the one Lutheran church I went into did have a crucifix in their sanctuary.

 

[John_Martin]

You’re welcome to your opinions, but not to your own facts. Lutherans regularly have crucifixes in their sanctuaries and in their homes. My most treasured possession from my dad is the crucifix he wore each Sunday as a pastor.

Again notice the appeal to opinion rather than to Authority.
Then there is the assertion of “facts” as if facts were a substitute for authority which properly interprets facts.
Crucifixes regularly present in Lutheran Churches would mean Presence by regulation, whether regulated to be in every Lutheran Church or in every other Lutheran Church or in every fifth Lutheran Church at some type of regular interval.

It is private preference that would bring a Lutheran Pastor to wear a crucifix rather than the obedience of following which is part of religious order.
And an opinion is of little value if one gives up a Lutheran opinion for an Anglican opinion and abandons one’s father’s opinions, taught as opinions rather than with authority to a son who believes the authority of the one who was sent to him.

 

[Wannano]

JonNC:

explore the Lutheran Confessions, particularly the Augsburg Confessions and the Apology, and the Small Catechism

These confessions are analogous to Peter standing in front of Jesus to block him from going to Jerusalem and to the cross; they are redefinitions of how He ought to be, because the Protest is that Jesus is making a mistake with Catholicism / Orthodoxy. No crucifixes in Lutheran or Protesting churches - symbolically their schema does not seem to follow Jesus onto the cross but turned salvation into a judicial rendering.

JonNC asked for people to choose what seems the best opinion. However, in Catholicism and Orthodoxy we follow and receive what we are given from the faithful Apostolic witness.

John Martin

I do not see in Jons’ suggestion where he said that at all. I thought he was saying study, pray and ask the Holy Spirit for guidance.

 

[Wannano]

Then why are you here?

It is impossible to determine with which attitude your question was asked. Are you saying we are not welcome? In my experience here, this is a great way for me to determine if there is any incentive to joining the CC.

 

[TTLE127]

No. Become Catholic. Protestantism is just watered down Christianity.

 

[Wannano]

No. Become Catholic. Protestantism is just watered down Christianity.

It is these kinds of comments that erode incentive. Truth doesn’t require this kind of support.

 

[John_Martin]

Are you also aware that the Theology of the Cross is a denial of human free will, yet JonNC is suggesting a person study and (via free will) choose what the (now educated) opinion by “free choice” chooses?
He did not suggest you read the Heidelberg Disputation where the so-called Theology of the Cross was defined and Free Will is denied.
It is all an unthinking attempt to use sentimental so-called logical arguments to lure you away from your authoritative teachers, to not trust the ones the Lord has sent to you.

 

[ChristMyLife]

My advice to you:

Ideally become a Roman or Eastern Catholic…

Otherwise go back to your ancestral tradition and rediscover Holy Orthodoxy.

But your only real choice is either to become Catholic or rediscover your ancestral tradition and devote yourself to Eastern Orthodoxy.

The reason is simple: the Eucharist and sacramental Grace.

Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism will both give you access to all the Mysteries/Sacraments and the great sacramental Grace accompanying them.

There IS much grace and even sanctifying grace to be found in Lutheranism, this is true. This is the grace which has reignited your faith and interest in the Church. However, Lutheranism is unable to convey sacramental grace, because the Sacraments don’t exist in Lutheranism in the way they do in the Catholic Church and various Eastern Orthodox Churches (it’s kind of a misnomer to refer to it as the Eastern Orthodox Church - it’s actually a very loose conglomeration of about 20 different Churches which are sometimes in and sometimes not in communion with each other who share a common Byzantine culture and tradition amongst themselves.)

 

[MagdalenaRita]

It is these kinds of comments that erode incentive. Truth doesn’t require this kind of support.

In all charity, what TTLE127 said may be hard to hear but what Catholics are called to do is speak truth, so to help shed light in the darkness.
The Catholic church is the Church that Christ founded. It holds the fullness of truth. As someone who was once protestant, I realize these statements may be hard to hear but protestantism does not hold the fullness of truth and it is watered down.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

I have much reverence for Lutheranism and there are many aspect of Lutheran theology I find in line with my relationship towards Christ,

So, my suggestion would be to ask yourself several questions.

Are you considering Lutheranism just because you have reverence for this particular protestant denomination?

Do you believe everything Lutheranism teaches? If you do believe everything Lutheranism teaches, do you believe it because you have found historical and biblical evidence that this particular denomination is speaking God’s truth and this is where truth and (most importantly) salvation are found?

Do you want to join this denomination because it lines up with what you feel or think at the present time are Christian truths and so are looking for a church that agrees with what you believe Christianity is?

And lastly, do you want to join Lutheranism because a friend and his pastor are wanting you to join and it is a comfortable place?

It started with a friend inviting me to his Lutheran church and now I attend there often. I’ve gotten to know the Pastor and he has been urging me to come into full membership.

What you should be seeking out is truth. God’s truth, historically and biblically. I suspect there is a reason you asked this question here on a Catholic forum and have received the answers you are recieving. I will keep you in my prayers.

God bless.

 

[Wannano]

YHWH_Christ:

I have much reverence for Lutheranism and there are many aspect of Lutheran theology I find in line with my relationship towards Christ,

So, my suggestion would be to ask yourself several questions.

Are you considering Lutheranism just because you have reverence for this particular protestant denomination?

Do you believe everything Lutheranism teaches? If you do believe everything Lutheranism teaches, do you believe it because you have found historical and biblical evidence that this particular denomination is speaking God’s truth and this is where truth and (most importantly) salvation are found?

Do you want to join this denomination because it lines up with what you feel or think at the present time are Christian truths and so are looking for a church that agrees with what you believe Christianity is?

And lastly, do you want to join Lutheranism because a friend and his pastor are wanting you to join and it is a comfortable place?

It started with a friend inviting me to his Lutheran church and now I attend there often. I’ve gotten to know the Pastor and he has been urging me to come into full membership.

What you should be seeking out is truth. God’s truth, historically and biblically. I suspect there is a reason you asked this question here on a Catholic forum and have received the answers you are recieving. I will keep you in my prayers.

God bless.

Bravo to you for this! A well thought thru charitable response missing the slurs some enjoy so much. I found your questions well positioned.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Thank you. They came to me when I first read the post because these were the questions I had to ask my own self on my journey back home to the Church.

 

[CatholicDetroit]

Also, don’t mind people asking why are you asking this here. You’re more than welcome because what they fail to realise is that this is the non- Catholic religion sub of the forum. Nonetheless, I hope whatever you choose it brings you peace through Christ.

 

[JonNC]

JonNC:

You’re welcome to your opinions, but not to your own facts. Lutherans regularly have crucifixes in their sanctuaries and in their homes. My most treasured possession from my dad is the crucifix he wore each Sunday as a pastor.

Again notice the appeal to opinion rather than to Authority.
Then there is the assertion of “facts” as if facts were a substitute for authority which properly interprets facts.

Mr. Martin seems to want to refer to me as if I am not here. So be it.

Notice the twisting of words here. In my post I made no appeal to opinion. Rather I dismissed Mr. Martin’s as nothing more than that.
The assertion of facts I made was in response to the falsehoods of Mr. Martin’s previous post, where he asserted that crucifixes cannot be found in Lutheran churches.

Crucifixes regularly present in Lutheran Churches would mean Presence by regulation, whether regulated to be in every Lutheran Church or in every other Lutheran Church or in every fifth Lutheran Church at some type of regular interval.

Notice now that since Mr. Martin has been caught in the falsehood, the tactic shifts to parsing of words. In American casual language, the term regularly can mean commonly, frequently, etc. It does not necessarily mean by regulation.
Mr. Martin also seems to want to apply the RC form of polity on Lutherans. That, too, does not cover up the false accusation that Lutherans do not use crucifixes.

And an opinion is of little value if one gives up a Lutheran opinion for an Anglican opinion and abandons one’s father’s opinions, taught as opinions rather than with authority to a son who believes the authority of the one who was sent to him.

And now Mr. Martin goes into a personal attack, an ad hominem.

 

[John_Martin]

Notice now that since Mr. Martin has been caught in the falsehood, the tactic shifts to parsing of words.

Caught in a falsehood? I had stated earlier that I was a former Lutheran; Perhaps it is necessary now to state that I was actually a Lutheran pastor and understand where and when crucifixes are used or not used based on personal choices, more often than not harshly contradicting the use of crucifixes. They are by no means regularly used whether colloquially or in the technical meaning of the term regular.

Being the non Catholic religion portion of the forums does not mean that here non Catholic religions are good; it simply means this is the place where Catholics, and whoever wishes to join, discuss non-catholic religions.

In the philosophy Forum we discuss philosophy; in the sacred scripture forum we discuss Sacred Scripture; here in the non Catholic religion Forum we discuss non-catholic religions - it doesn’t mean we approve of them.

 

[JonNC]

YHWH_Christ,
I am exiting your thread to avoid it being hijacked by a poster who seems intent on turning it into a polemical fight. I do not think that serves you well.
More than one poster has encouraged you to become Catholic. I think you would do well to explore that option, as well. Know that there are many good reasons to consider it, and ignore some of the apologists you might find here.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

To the original poster:

I would suggest you read From Conflict to Communion.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p...doc_2013_dal-conflitto-alla-comunione_en.html

If you are an American, you also might find helpful Declaration on the Way, which you will find along with further information here:

Catholics and Lutherans Release ‘Declaration on the Way’ to Full Unity | USCCB

The former document is from the Holy See. The latter document came into being under the supervision of the Holy See but was conducted by the American Bishops with their Lutheran counterparts and is published by the American Bishops.

 

[JonNC]

JonNC:

Notice now that since Mr. Martin has been caught in the falsehood, the tactic shifts to parsing of words.

Caught in a falsehood? I had stated earlier that I was a former Lutheran; Perhaps it is necessary now to state that I was actually a Lutheran pastor and understand where and when crucifixes are used or not used based on personal choices, more often than not harshly contradicting the use of crucifixes. They are by no means regularly used whether colloquially or in the technical meaning of the term regular.

Here is what you posted:

No crucifixes in Lutheran or Protesting churches - symbolically their schema does not seem to follow Jesus onto the cross but turned salvation into a judicial rendering.

This is patently false.
Crucifixes are regularly used in Lutheran churches. In all Lutheran churches? No. But they are used, and regularly, in Lutheran churches. As a former Lutheran pastor, you should know this.

Perhaps a source would help:

https://www.glctulsa.org/hallblog/?p=2405

Many Lutherans and Lutheran congregations use crucifixes. Crucifixes are used in the chapels of both of our seminaries and our International Center. Lutheranism has always considered the crucifix to be a powerful reminder of the sacrifice our Lord Jesus made for us and our salvation, on the cross. A crucifix vividly brings to mind the Apostle Paul’s divinely inspired words, “We preach Christ and Him crucified” (1 Cor. 1:23).

This sounds “regular” to me.

 

[John_Martin]

Perhaps a source would help:

I read the link.
A very long link, and seemingly odd that’s such a long apology is needed to prove to Lutherans in the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod that crucifixes are okay for Lutherans. If the use were so common why the need to defend it at such length?
You do not ask that though; you do not ask why is such a long explanation for the validity of a crucifix needed?