Should I call?

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just as a FYI----

there was nothing in any written non-JW literature–not even the Bible–that could convince me that JWs were wrong. It is all from the devil. What cracked my foundation was their own literature and the discrepancies I ‘stumbled upon’ (punny) in their Greek Interlinear for their NWT Bible. They must have assumed that no one would actually READ it! Well I did and the mistranslation was so obvious it crumbled the whole Tower. But if someone who was Catholic had shown it to me I would have dismissed it and never given it another thought. And I can guarantee that is how MOST JWs think.

So if you want to bring something to their attention that will stay with them, do it in a non-threatening way and use their own literature and Bible translation. Ask them a question about something in their books or magazines that they can’t explain. For this you need a good JW Apologetic like Jeff’s site. Has to be an inside job. LOL
 
Ravyn_Guiliani said:
yeah my post did sound kinda snobbish, I didn’t mean it to…but I still stand on what I said about doubts—all the doubts are already there. They spend much time on how to handle doubt in themselves by repressing it–they are taught how to get rid of doubts. So there will not be any epiphanies coming from the outside. Like I said it has to be a personal crisis to hit you right in the face and knock you on your butt to bring the doubts to the fore.
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Hmmm, Ravyn, I love you, girl, but I think I’m going to disagree with you there. What I mean is, in my experience, what led me to leave the JWs was a crisis, yes, but the crisis was that I just couldn’t find any happiness in the JW faith and could not feel it in my heart. It left me cold. It was dreadful. I thought I was damned but I knew that I just didn’t have the right “heart condition,” to use 'Hovie words, to be a JW. I felt that my brain was filled with a big, dark cloud of ignorance: I didn’t know what was wrong with the JWs, but I knew God had something more in mind for me than what they were offering. Things non-JW people told me throughout the course of my youth had me so confused that I reached my crisis and left the JWs. I knew that I didn’t know where I was going but that I could no longer stay where I was. And it all started with seeds planted by my Catholic neighbors when I was nine years old.

So, in a way, I had an epiphany (“LEAVE THE JW’S!”) because of things good christians said to me or things I saw them do. You never know where those seeds will take root or how long the germination period may be.
 
SerenaHC said:
Hmmm, Ravyn, I love you, girl, but I think I’m going to disagree with you there. What I mean is, in my experience, what led me to leave the JWs was a crisis, yes, but the crisis was that I just couldn’t find any happiness in the JW faith and could not feel it in my heart. It left me cold. It was dreadful. I thought I was damned but I knew that I just didn’t have the right “heart condition,” to use 'Hovie words, to be a JW. I felt that my brain was filled with a big, dark cloud of ignorance: I didn’t know what was wrong with the JWs, but I knew God had something more in mind for me than what they were offering.
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well see—the crisis was basically emotional. And it was when you were a child that you were still open enough for it to penetrate.

I realized one day that I did not know Jesus and I felt empty, thinking I needed to revive my ‘first love’ (<hovie talk) and so I started studying the Greatest Man book and of course it was just flat. It never even occurred to me to pick up a nonJW book on Jesus or to read another Bible translation like the King James…
and I blamed myself for the spiritual depression. That is how we were all taught to deal with the deficit.

The doubts were there all the time. I just ignored them until another crisis came along, for me that was a murder and two suicides in one year. And dealing personally with jealousy and gossip that cost me my pioneering.
 
Ravyn_Guiliani said:
well see—the crisis was basically emotional. And it was when you were a child that you were still open enough for it to penetrate.
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Actually, Ravyn, I was about 25 years old. Not quite a child. Although my oldest son is 24 and I still think of him as a child, so maybe you’re right!

What I meant was that things told to me by faithful christians when I was a child festered in my mind over time, culminating in my crisis of faith that caused me to leave the JWs in search of truth when I was around 25 years of age.

Sorry if I confused you. I’m not always clear in my writing.😦

I thank God for all of the good christians He put in my path during my life to help lead me to Him. Without them, I wouldn’t be Catholic today.
 
Oh, Ravyn, I’m going to bed, so if you reply to my reply and I don’t reply, it’s because I’m asleep.

Good night!
 
ravyn is absolutely correct on all accounts. how so? because like her, i used to be one of them. full time in the ministry, countless hours door to door, meetings, indoctrination and so on. although i was there for awhile, the fact is, the indoctrination was deep.

she is correct about them seeing you as a convert. they are not their to share ideas. they are there to convert you. if they realize they are not converting you, they terminate the study or conversation. it is like what hellisreal stated from those magazines of theirs. they pretty much summed up ravyn’s point. they leave when there is no progress.

the crack in my armor did not come right away. it took a long time. yes, i missed the holidays, and missed my family, and missed birthdays and so on, but i was still indoctrinated. the crack came when i had had enough of my in-laws constantly down grading me every chance they got. it took 10 years for the crack.

it was a gradual crack. the crack started when i married my 1st husband. then it just gradually got bigger. i was humiliated, treated like a 3rd class citizen, exct. why? because my family is Catholic.
and so on.

i grinned and bore it for 10 years. the crack became a fault line and then the crack healed after i left but that took another 8 years for that crack to close. the only thing left is the occasional self disgust that i was stupid enough to ever go there in the first place. but that is old news.

if you had tried to speak to me about the Catholic faith back then, it would not have mattered. you could’ve talked until the cows came home and i still would not have left. i had to do it on my own and that help came from God. it was my mom and my family that i missed so badly that was the final straw, that and the ridicule and racist attacks. all those things were catalysts that got me to finally pack it in with them for good.

the sad fact is, i grew up as a Catholic, and although not educated very well in the faith, i knew the basics of it. what surprises me is knowing this, i still became a jw. 🤷 but hey, water under the bridge. old news. you could’ve invited me over for a Bible study, spoke to me for hours on end trying to show me about God, and i would not have listened. i would have argued the falsetower’s beliefs to you until the cows came home. so no, for me, it would not have mattered. you would have to have truly proven to me truly proven their lies to me before i would’ve sat down and believed a word you said.

we were taught to not accept any anti jw material. at one point, i even feared anti jw material. that is how deep the indoctrination was for me. i wouldn’t go near any apostate type material or people. sigh…

you truly would’ve had to prove it to me. with documents backing up what you said, and you would have had to show it to me in the Bible from the NWT. it would’ve been like pulling eye teeth to get me to see the lies and false prophecies of the society.

but if there is even the slightest chance that you can put a crack in their armor, i say go for it. it takes alot of patience and determination, which i think you have an abundance of. so yes, go for it. don’t let anything stop you. although i agree with ravyn, perhaps one person will listen. since we are not God, and we do not know the thoughts and the hearts of man, and only God does, we cannot say that one might not be led out of the falsetower. it might take you years to work with one person, but if it is God’s will that that person is led out of the watchtower society, it is His will and nothing can stop God’s will. nothing.
 
Just an odd follow-up. The JW’s never called back. However, the local Bible Baptist Church is in the neighborhood, down the street a ways. They typically don’t engage in dialogue, so I’ve got my “Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth” and a copy of Scott Hahn’s conversion story ready to exchange for their material.

You know, I never mentioned this part of the story with the JW’s, but when they first showed up over a month ago, my two nephews, both at the tail-end of high school, were leaving our house, and both were dressed nicely. The JW’s saw them go. When they got to thed door, they apologized for being late, and I replied, “No problem, the Mormon boys were just leaving.” The look on his face was priceless. I told them I was joking, of course, but it was still a very funny situation.
 
awfulthings9 said:
Just an odd follow-up. The JW’s never called back. However, the local Bible Baptist Church is in the neighborhood, down the street a ways. They typically don’t engage in dialogue, so I’ve got my “Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth” and a copy of Scott Hahn’s conversion story ready to exchange for their material.

You know, I never mentioned this part of the story with the JW’s, but when they first showed up over a month ago, my two nephews, both at the tail-end of high school, were leaving our house, and both were dressed nicely. The JW’s saw them go. When they got to thed door, they apologized for being late, and I replied, “No problem, the Mormon boys were just leaving.” The look on his face was priceless. I told them I was joking, of course, but it was still a very funny situation.
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😃 :extrahappy: :rotfl: :clapping:
 
Just an update. No return call. I drafted a letter to send. Here is the text:

Dear XXXX:

Over a month ago, you and another member of the Jehovah’s Witness faith visited my home for a study of Scripture. I wanted to write for a couple of reasons, and one of which is to thank you for your time and for your conversation. I truly enjoyed discussing our mutual love of God’s word.
I am disappointed, though, that I have not heard back from either of you, aside from the Sunday on which you stopped by to drop off a couple resources for me. In addition, I left a voice mail message with you recently, and it, too, was not returned. Many questions were left unanswered from our conversation, and both of you indicated that you would get back with me with answers. As much as you indicated that a true faith would be known by its fruits, I will have to admit that I was surprised to find that you not only have decided to cease our visits, but you were not able to give me the respect of a phone call to explain why, especially after the civil and respectful tone of our meeting.
There were several questions that arose during our meeting, for which you indicated you would find answers:
· How do members of the Jehovah’s Witness faith explain the selection of each individual book of the Bible, particularly in the New Testament, as opposed to other orthodox material from the first century? In other words, by what means can we know that individual books, such as Philemon and 3 John, were correctly included in Scripture, while writings such as The Didache and the Epistles of Clement were correctly excluded.
· Why are their inconsistencies in the translation of the New World Bible, in which the same Greek word, such as Kurios and* proskune*, appears to be translated, not according to a literal reading, but to fit a preconceived theology? While your partner indicated that the choice to translate *Kurios *as “Jehovah” (as opposed to “Lord”) reflected a verse which paraphrased or quoted from the Old Testament, I pointed out at least one Scriptural example, Phil. 2:10-11, as a violation of that rule.
· By what means do Jehovah’s Witnesses access the oral teachings that Paul refers to often (e.g. 2 Tim. 2:2 and 2 Thes. 2:15), which are indicated as a valid transmission of the teachings of Jesus Christ?
· How, when two Christians sincerely attempt to read Scripture and pray for God’s guidance through his Holy Spirit, can they know whose interpretation is correct when they come to a different interpretation of the same text? In other words, what is our plumb-line for truth in discerning a correct interpretation?
· Why, if God desires us to know him by the personal name of “Jehovah”, does the actual name “Jehovah” not appear even one time in the Greek original of the New Testament?
Last, if the earliest Christians were indeed Jehovah’s Witnesses, as you were confident they were, I asked you to identify five distinct teachings of the Jehovah’s Witnesses that you knew could be found among the writings of these Christians. In my own search, I’ve found none.
The fact that you haven’t contacted me can mean any of a few possibilities: 1) you have not found the answers to these questions and are hesitant to admit this; 2) my salvation is not a priority for your missionary work; 3) you suspect something dishonest in my motives; or 4) your own motives were something other than the assistance in my search for truth, contrary to the way you first presented yourself.
(continued …)
 
Beyond this speculation, I cannot know your thoughts, though I assume them to be pure, but can assure you that my own intentions are a desire to work with you in a mutual testing of “all things”, to “hold fast to that which is good”. Your decision to end communication with me appears, itself, to be a sign of how poorly the Jehovah’s Witness faith has stood that test. I hope you will reconsider and please get in touch with me. If you have not found the answers for which I asked, this is not an obstacle in our conversation. I would be happy to share with you the answers I have found to many of these questions, and hopefully these answers will help you in your future missionary work. Beyond that we can move our conversation in the direction in which it appeared you desired for it to go, which is an examination of the identify of Christ and a critique of the idea of a three-person God. I currently find myself drawn toward the idea of Christ as God and as one of the three persons who make up the Trinity. However, in the spirit of testing all things, I would value without measure any insight you could give to help me examine these doctrines more fully.

Please contact me at XXXX. I consider it a privilege to have met the two of you, and I hope our conversation can continue in the near future.
 
An update:

The JW’s called today, responding to the letter I sent. We’re meeting next Monday. If you look at the date of my original post, you’ll see the time that has passed. His excuse over the phone: they’ve been busy building a new Kingdom Hall.
 
I’m assuming next Monday is the 19th? There’s a book that would be priceless for you to help communicate with them. It’s called Captives of A Concept by Don Cameron. You can argue doctrine with them all day and never get anywhere because they’re so prepared. This book takes a different tactic, using their own literature. I have this book and really like it. Here’s the url:

captivesofaconcept.com/index.php

Keep us posted about how the meeting goes. Oh, to be a fly on the wall! 😉
 
SerenaHC said:
I’m assuming next Monday is the 19th? There’s a book that would be priceless for you to help communicate with them. It’s called Captives of A Concept by Don Cameron. You can argue doctrine with them all day and never get anywhere because they’re so prepared. This book takes a different tactic, using their own literature. I have this book and really like it. Here’s the url:

captivesofaconcept.com/index.php

Keep us posted about how the meeting goes. Oh, to be a fly on the wall! 😉
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Thanks. I meant to write Sunday (the 18th). You are right about doctrine, which is why I took a different, foundational approach that seems to go well. However, the book looks great and I’ll put in an order (it won’t get here before Sunday, unfortunately, but I’m hoping we meet more than once).

A different individual is coming with one of the originals this time. He is the one who contacted me, rather than the man I met the first time, which makes me believe they got one of the higher-ups to come. As I’ve implied earlier in the thread, it went very poorly for them. I don’t say that to boast (1 Cor. 1:31), but to say that the foundation for Christ’s church held firm against theirs. I kept pretty copious notes on all the things the gentleman from last time said he didn’t have answers for, but would locate, such as identifying five distinctly JW doctrines that can be found in the writings of the early church. He assured me they would be there.
 
SerenaHC said:
I’m assuming next Monday is the 19th? There’s a book that would be priceless for you to help communicate with them. It’s called Captives of A Concept by Don Cameron. You can argue doctrine with them all day and never get anywhere because they’re so prepared. This book takes a different tactic, using their own literature. I have this book and really like it. Here’s the url:

captivesofaconcept.com/index.php

Keep us posted about how the meeting goes. Oh, to be a fly on the wall! 😉
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Okay, now I’m intrigued. The advertisement refers to the one mistake every JW has made, but won’t reveal what it is (of course, because one has to buy the book). I’m buying the book, but how about a sneak preview. What is that “one mistake”?
 
awfulthings9 said:
  1. We had a very civil (I would go so far as to say friendly) discussion, which
  2. ended on excellent terms.
  3. as far as the content, it didn’t go very well at all for them.
  4. that their arguments and propositions really fell apart during the conversation. Several times they told me,
  5. “We’ll have to get back with you.” The conversation focused on foundation more than doctrine.
  6. and continue our study. After all, they did contact me first and did promise to get back with me.
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Hi

I think it was a useful and peaceful discussion. There is no harm in continuing it with them. A peaceful exchange of view always softens both sides and depth in the study. You can now even visit them and solidify the friendly relation already established.

Let us work for peace of the world by better understanding one anothers’ point of view.

Thanks
 
Della said:
I’d call to give him the opportunity of saying he doesn’t want to continue your studying together. He probably hasn’t gotten back to you because he doesn’t want to jeopardize his own beliefs. That seems the most likely scenario, although he may have family problems or some other issue that has kept him from getting back to you.
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maybe it is a possibility, very likely.

Thanks
 
JRKH said:
Pray on it and do what the Holy Spirit wants you to.

James
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Hi

Praying is ver essential and effective; but praying should be directed to GodAllahYHWH directly, without any intercessors. The angels or as some call them holy spirit is/are but a servent of GodAllahYHWH and only do what is commanded by Him; they can’t do anything on their own.

This is my view; I respect your faith.

Thanks
 
Catholig said:
I talked with some Mormon missionaries a while ago, and invited them to come back with their book of Mormon - they haven’t.

Catholig
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Hi

There is no harm in calling them or visiting them or in polite discussion.

Thanks
 
awfulthings9 said:
Okay, now I’m intrigued. The advertisement refers to the one mistake every JW has made, but won’t reveal what it is (of course, because one has to buy the book). I’m buying the book, but how about a sneak preview. What is that “one mistake”?
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It’s somewhat detailed. It’s a misuse of Matt. 24:45-57. Here’s a snippet to help clarify:

"The Society promotes the belief that whatever they say, it is as if God is the One who is speaking. For example, the February 1, 1967 Watchtower says, “What (the Witnesses) are telling people is what God in his Word says; he is the one talking…. So too, God uses men to speak to those within the congregation of believers…When they give counsel…it is God who is speaking by means of them.’ The article also asks, “How can one identify the organization through which God is speaking to mankind today?” p. 72. On page 15 of the May 1, 2000 Watchtower the Governing Body reminds Witnesses that, “Jehovah speaks to us through the Bible and by means of ‘the faithful and discreet slave’ [organization].” – See Chapter 6, “Who Is God’s Organization?”

You see, the JWs are convinced that the Watchtower Society is God’s Organization on Earth and that God speaks to humanity through them. They’ve identified their own Governing Body as this faithful and discreet slave. Thus, the R&F JWs accept anything the WTS says, no matter how absurd, because they won’t question God. This book goes on to show how to make the JWs aware that, by their own criteria, it’s impossible for the WTS to truly be what they claim to be, i.e., God’s mouthpiece.
 
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