Should I check out a Russian or a Greek church first?

[5Loaves]

The current Roman Catholic church I attend is about 10 minutes away. There are closer ones, but it is one of the famous California missions, and the beauty and historicity of the building is unsurpassed.

Mission San Juan Bautista? If so, you have a growing scola there in connection with the Roman Rite Mass in the Extraordinary Form, is that right?

Twice in the past 3 years I’ve been at weekend trainings for catechists held at the Franciscan Retreat Center in San Juan Bautista. Both times the Mission was closed during our free time.

Forgive me going off topic… Do you know about the exhibition at the Oakland Museum through the end of this month? I work across from the Museum but haven’t gotten to the exhibit yet.
Splendors of Faith/Scars of Conquest Arts of the Missions of Northern New Spain,1600-1821 February 26, 2011 - May 29, 2011

Explore the Arts of the Missions of Northern New Spain in this stunning exhibition exploring the rich artistic legacy of the Franciscan and Jesuit mission churches in northern Mexico and the American Southwest. Many of the missions were exuberantly decorated with lavish paintings, sculpture, furniture, and liturgical objects and vestments. This extraordinary exhibition, which originated at the Antiguo Colegio de San Ildefonso (Mexico City), features approximately 110 objects from collections in Mexico, the United States, and Europe—including masterpieces from the missions themselves—shown together for the first time. OMCA is the only California venue for this internationally traveling exhibition and one of only two venues in the United States.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Thank you. We actually were not in the formal Schism, but eventually the rift reached us and eventually we came into communion with the Catholic Church.

I pray we can continue to survive, we four parishes in the US. I need to write to Fr. Loya. He and Katie did a run down of the ECCs/OCCs on the program last Sunday., 5/1, #344 and we Russians were left out.

I think you might want to consider publicizing the vast number of Russian Catholic martyrs up for canonization - you have many more than any Eastern Church!

Alex

 

[Augustus24]

Is it by chance the one where Fr Junipero Serra is buried near the altar?

Yes.

Its Mission San Carlos Borromeo, otherwise known as the Carmel Mission Basilica.

I also go to San Carlos Cathedral in Monterey occasionally, a the mission can get crowded. Which interestingly enough is the oldest continually used house of worship in California, and one of the oldest cathedrals in the US (b. 1771). It is also the smallest cathedral in the US iirc.

 

[Augustus24]

Mission San Juan Bautista? If so, you have a growing scola there in connection with the Roman Rite Mass in the Extraordinary Form, is that right?

Twice in the past 3 years I’ve been at weekend trainings for catechists held at the Franciscan Retreat Center in San Juan Bautista. Both times the Mission was closed during our free time.

Forgive me going off topic… Do you know about the exhibition at the Oakland Museum through the end of this month? I work across from the Museum but haven’t gotten to the exhibit yet.
Splendors of Faith/Scars of Conquest Arts of the Missions of Northern New Spain,1600-1821 February 26, 2011 - May 29, 2011

No, Its the Carmel Mission.

But I have been interested in going to the TLM at San Juan Bautista.

 

[steve_b]

Yes.

Its Mission San Carlos Borromeo, otherwise known as the Carmel Mission Basilica.

Thought so.
A:

I also go to San Carlos Cathedral in Monterey occasionally, a the mission can get crowded. Which interestingly enough is the oldest continually used house of worship in California, and one of the oldest cathedrals in the US (b. 1771). It is also the smallest cathedral in the US iirc.

I Know them both.

 

[TrueLight]

I visited a Russian Orthodox Church today. The services were mostly in English, the people were friendly and welcoming including the Dean.

The Liturgy was awesome!

 

[Augustus24]

I have decided to check out some local Eastern Orthodox churches. One is a Russian Orthodox (ROCOR) and the other is a Greek Orthodox.

Which one should I check out first, coming as a newcomer?

I checked out the Russian Church.

I wrote about my experiences and posted a new thread:

“My Experience in a Russian Orthodox Church”.

 

[TrueLight]

I checked out the Russian Church.

I wrote about my experiences and posted a new thread:

“My Experience in a Russian Orthodox Church”.

We both did the same thing today it seems.

 

[Kielbasi]

I have decided to check out some local Eastern Orthodox churches. One is a Russian Orthodox (ROCOR) and the other is a Greek Orthodox.

Which one should I check out first, coming as a newcomer?

An interesting point about the Russian Orthodox Church is that in the United States, it is not predominately Russian in ethnicity, but instead Rusyn.

The Rusyns or Ruthenians came to the United States as Byzantine rite Catholics but many of them switched to the Russian Orthodox Church when they had disputes with Catholic prelates, most notably Archbishop Ireland back near the dawn of the 20th Century.

 

[Bluegoat]

The closest Orthodox parishes in my area are up in Fresno, 60 miles north from my town. There is a Greek, Serbian, and Coptic up there in Fresno. Here in town there is only Coptic. That is 100% middle eastern and I’d feel ethnically too fish outta water with them I think. I’ve considered looking at the Greek or Serbian up in Fresno. I just think an hour away is a really lousy scenario…

I’m really fascinated by Orthodoxy now and would like to see what it’s all about but honestly, this might sound goofy, but I’m a little nervous and freaked-out about looking into it! I don’t know what to expect. I’ve heard stories that are very conflicting…

Goodness Gurney, you could knock me over with a feather!

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Come again, Meghan?

Goodness Gurney, you could knock me over with a feather!

 

[5Loaves]

The Rusyns or Ruthenians came to the United States as Byzantine rite Catholics** but many of them switched to the Russian Orthodox Church when they had disputes with Catholic prelates, most notably Archbishop Ireland** back near the dawn of the 20th Century.

I got a huge grim on my face when our choir yesterday began the Troparia and Kontakia to St. Alexi. Tiny group there, just three in the choir, our Latin bi-ritual priest who serves this first Sat. Liturgy, two altar servers, and maybe 3 of the rest of us. I think the choir director and I were the only two who knew who was being commemorated. Later he told me he’d told the other two choir members. Kontakia: “…He called back the sheep who had been led astray…” I think that be us, still astray… I was all for commemorating St. Alexi. Archbishop Ireland and the other Latin Church bishops who pushed Rome about our married priests were badly served by Rome’s acceptance of their demands, thankfully since rescinded. The Holy Spirit works in strange ways… the OCA has been very good to many of us ECs. O righteous Father Alexis, pray for us.

 

[5Loaves]

Glad to read about your experience today. I see that thread has gone in another direction so I will post here in the context you’ve already established.

Does this parish have Sat. night Vespers? That is also a good time to go which should be a very rich experience. Not a Divine Liturgy, so no Eucharist. And Wed. 5/16 is Mid-Pentecost and Blessing of Water. The parish I’m going to will have the blessing of water at Vespers Tues night instead of a Wed. service. This coming Wed. is the feast of Saints Cyril and Methodius, Equals of the Apostles, and Enlighteners of the Slavs. I’d expect them to have services that day or Vespers for Cyril and Methodius the night before, depending… they sound pretty large. Hopefully if you go again on a Sunday you’ll be able to stay to eat. Having fasted since last evening and stood in Liturgy for several hours Russians are ready to eat, and I don’t mean doughnuts!

 

[Rawb]

Does this parish have Sat. night Vespers? That is also a good time to go which should be a very rich experience. Not a Divine Liturgy, so no Eucharist.

Oh this is a good point, we have several Roman Catholics who just attend Vespers with us on Saturday and their own Latin parish on Sundays. It helps mark the start of Sunday, separates the whole day from the rest of the week, and is just a beautiful service.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

You got me curious, dude…

Oh this is a good point, we have several Roman Catholics who just attend Vespers with us on Saturday and their own Latin parish on Sundays. It helps mark the start of Sunday, separates the whole day from the rest of the week, and is just a beautiful service.

 

[Bluegoat]

Come again, Meghan?

When I was last at CAF you weren’t very interested in Orthodoxy. It’s always strange to be away for a while and miss out on what people have been thinking about.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

You should know I’m open-minded, Meghan. Give me a little credit. I actually met with Rawb, another poster on here, at Starbuck’s last night at 9:30pm. Turns out he lives in Fresno and is from my town, Visalia, also! Small world! CAF is so international and we all live in this fascinating and odd little cyberworld and here he lives not far from me.

Rawb is Orthodox and he invited me to check out his Serbian Orthodox parish. I have been reading Timothy (Kallistos) Ware’s book “The Orthodox Church,” reading my Meyendorff books, and honestly I’m just at a crossroads where I’ve been an interloper between Anglicanism and Catholicism back and forth back and forth only to come up feeling spiritually dry and empty from both. The Orthodox argue that Catholicism and Protestantism are just two sides of the same coin. Having lived in both, I’m starting to concur? I struggle with the Atonement issue, as you know. And there’s much I love about Catholicism.

I enjoyed my conversation with Rawb. It’s amazing to actually meet a poster in person, quite the rarity in here! It’s uncommon to talk with someone who has felt the same way, gone through similar conundrums, and thinks in a similar way about theology. Most people I know in “real life” could care LESS about theology or which church is “the” church…

If I tell you I’m looking at Orthodoxy, don’t be surprised. But if I join the Hare Krishnas or Mormons, then start wonderin’!

When I was last at CAF you weren’t very interested in Orthodoxy. It’s always strange to be away for a while and miss out on what people have been thinking about.

 

[Bluegoat]

You should know I’m open-minded, Meghan. Give me a little credit. I actually met with Rawb, another poster on here, at Starbuck’s last night at 9:30pm. Turns out he lives in Fresno and is from my town, Visalia, also! Small world! CAF is so international and we all live in this fascinating and odd little cyberworld and here he lives not far from me.

Rawb is Orthodox and he invited me to check out his Serbian Orthodox parish. I have been reading Timothy (Kallistos) Ware’s book “The Orthodox Church,” reading my Meyendorff books, and honestly I’m just at a crossroads where I’ve been an interloper between Anglicanism and Catholicism back and forth back and forth only to come up feeling spiritually dry and empty from both. The Orthodox argue that Catholicism and Protestantism are just two sides of the same coin. Having lived in both, I’m starting to concur? I struggle with the Atonement issue, as you know. And there’s much I love about Catholicism.

I enjoyed my conversation with Rawb. It’s amazing to actually meet a poster in person, quite the rarity in here! It’s uncommon to talk with someone who has felt the same way, gone through similar conundrums, and thinks in a similar way about theology. Most people I know in “real life” could care LESS about theology or which church is “the” church…

If I tell you I’m looking at Orthodoxy, don’t be surprised. But if I join the Hare Krishnas or Mormons, then start wonderin’!

I will surely private message you if you say that you intend to join the hare krishnas. You might not be able to carry off the saffron robes in any case.

But in all seriousness, it isn’t that I think it’s crazy or impossible that you became interested in Orthodoxy, it’s just that it’s a change from last time I was at CAF when you didn’t seem to be thinking in that direction at all.

It’s awesome that you no someone to visit with though, it’s much nicer to go visit with a familiar face in the crowd. And I’m with you on meeting people interested in theology and so on. I was spoiled when I was younger, since I studied classics, almost everyone I hung out with was interested. Now if I meet someone who wants to talk about theology I am so happy it’s a bit sad.

I find trying to think about all the theological issues frustrating in another sense though. For example, I read an article recently on some Orthodox thoughts on Augustine and the Atonement, and it seemed interesting and plausible. I asked my friend, who did doctoral work on Augustine, what he thought: he said that it totally misunderstood Augustine’s differentiation between something-or-other and something-else, which we can see in book whatever of de trinitate…

Well, I don’t think I’m a moron, but I am probably not going to be in a position to really look at these questions at a scholarly level - on the other hand, I have some idea what that entails, so I don’t feel confident with more popular theological treatments.

So I find myself asking - it really can’t be that one needs to be a scholar to figure out what church to be in, yk? There has to be a simpler way than that.

but going for a visit will be interesting even if you find you don’t go that way. I was surprised on the one visit I made to a Divine Liturgy, I became quite emotional, which is unusual for me, and it seemed much less exotic than I had expected. I’d like to go again, especially now that my little guy is bigger and I can leave him behind (I had to step out a bit with him when we visited before. The incense in the very small room seemed to bother him.)

I liked* The Orthodox Church* too. Another that I enjoyed but was quite different was The Illumined Heart by Fredrica Matthews-Green. It was also short enough my husband was willing to read it, which is always a bonus.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

John Meyendorff’s an outstanding Orthodox author, or at least, he was…he passed on years back. What a great writer and thinker…

I’ve been meditating upon the very concept of history and geography. Imagine that, if Catholicism truly did become schismatic, that it spread all through Western Europe, into the New World, all over the place, and its validity is up for grabs? I have a problem with that just like I have a problem with how the Catholics claim that Anglicanism is devoid of sacraments and validity and graces…My ancestors are largely British and German with some Irish and Dutch thrown in, typical American mut am I. Imagine that all the countries of my forefathers had schismatic, invalid church life? Hard to imagine. It would seem that we’re creatures of location and circumstance and time. Catholicism, for me, in a way is tied to my heritage, my ancestry…And it’s interesting to ponder that only in Byzantium and toward Russia and Turkey and Ukraine, and Serbia, and the East that Christ’s Church truly continued…I guess I struggle with that notion…

It’s hard to ponder being of such a Western mentality and of a Western heritage and going East…there’s a cultural component to it, I don’t know if I’m making any sense…

I do think the East has it right on polity, bishops and the equality of the fullness of all the apostolic college in each bishop. That’s where I started. They view worship differently. I like that they see sacraments as mysteries, not something to use scholasticism to explain. I like that they don’t write a catechism and have a rule and explanation for every single shred of morality, science, and daily living. They have a more lex orandi lex credendi in the purest sense.

I like that they are consistent. They don’t look at centuries and centuries of councils suddenly turning into a monarchical episcopacy that is infallible that doesn’t need a council all of a sudden. They never had a reformation, they never have changed their liturgy to make it more modern, they’ve never even debated women’s ordination or had to bring it up, they never change…I see Catholicism much the opposite…

I find them intriguing. I do admit to having believed in Anselm’s views on substitutionary atonement my whole life. I have always looked at the Atonement as Israel’s sacrifices of blood to the Lord as a prefiguration of it. Isaiah 53 has always weighed heavily on my thinking while Romans played into things a great deal. I’ve always seen the Way of the Cross, the Stations, the suffering, as being something intertwined in the salvation story. I have always seen the pains, sufferings, and rejections that Christ experienced as atoning for what I deserve. I appreciate the emphasis the Orthodox place on overcoming death. I have always believed that the emphasis should lay there. And I agree with theosis, always did. Theosis is a Catholic idea as well. I can appreciate the idea that EO’s have that substitutionary atonement, in its aims to return God the honor lost in the garden makes it look like the thing standing in the way of man and salvation is God. That does make sense. In the ransom views Satan is standing in the way and God is fighting to get us back. It does make sense really. I don’t know…still studying the issue.

One thing you have to give me, Meghan, is that I don’t pretend to know it all and I’m open to different views…I’m not a dogmatic…

I will surely private message you if you say that you intend to join the hare krishnas. You might not be able to carry off the saffron robes in any case.

But in all seriousness, it isn’t that I think it’s crazy or impossible that you became interested in Orthodoxy, it’s just that it’s a change from last time I was at CAF when you didn’t seem to be thinking in that direction at all.

It’s awesome that you no someone to visit with though, it’s much nicer to go visit with a familiar face in the crowd. And I’m with you on meeting people interested in theology and so on. I was spoiled when I was younger, since I studied classics, almost everyone I hung out with was interested. Now if I meet someone who wants to talk about theology I am so happy it’s a bit sad.

I find trying to think about all the theological issues frustrating in another sense though. For example, I read an article recently on some Orthodox thoughts on Augustine and the Atonement, and it seemed interesting and plausible. I asked my friend, who did doctoral work on Augustine, what he thought: he said that it totally misunderstood Augustine’s differentiation between something-or-other and something-else, which we can see in book whatever of de trinitate…

Well, I don’t think I’m a moron, but I am probably not going to be in a position to really look at these questions at a scholarly level - on the other hand, I have some idea what that entails, so I don’t feel confident with more popular theological treatments.

So I find myself asking - it really can’t be that one needs to be a scholar to figure out what church to be in, yk? There has to be a simpler way than that.

but going for a visit will be interesting even if you find you don’t go that way. I was surprised on the one visit I made to a Divine Liturgy, I became quite emotional, which is unusual for me, and it seemed much less exotic than I had expected. I’d like to go again, especially now that my little guy is bigger and I can leave him behind (I had to step out a bit with him when we visited before. The incense in the very small room seemed to bother him.)

I liked* The Orthodox Church* too. Another that I enjoyed but was quite different was The Illumined Heart by Fredrica Matthews-Green. It was also short enough my husband was willing to read it, which is always a bonus.

 

[Bluegoat]

John Meyendorff’s an outstanding Orthodox author, or at least, he was…he passed on years back. What a great writer and thinker…

I’ve been meditating upon the very concept of history and geography. Imagine that, if Catholicism truly did become schismatic, that it spread all through Western Europe, into the New World, all over the place, and its validity is up for grabs? I have a problem with that just like I have a problem with how the Catholics claim that Anglicanism is devoid of sacraments and validity and graces…My ancestors are largely British and German with some Irish and Dutch thrown in, typical American mut am I. Imagine that all the countries of my forefathers had schismatic, invalid church life? Hard to imagine. It would seem that we’re creatures of location and circumstance and time. Catholicism, for me, in a way is tied to my heritage, my ancestry…And it’s interesting to ponder that only in Byzantium and toward Russia and Turkey and Ukraine, and Serbia, and the East that Christ’s Church truly continued…I guess I struggle with that notion…

It’s hard to ponder being of such a Western mentality and of a Western heritage and going East…there’s a cultural component to it, I don’t know if I’m making any sense…

I do think the East has it right on polity, bishops and the equality of the fullness of all the apostolic college in each bishop. That’s where I started. They view worship differently. I like that they see sacraments as mysteries, not something to use scholasticism to explain. I like that they don’t write a catechism and have a rule and explanation for every single shred of morality, science, and daily living. They have a more lex orandi lex credendi in the purest sense.

I like that they are consistent. They don’t look at centuries and centuries of councils suddenly turning into a monarchical episcopacy that is infallible that doesn’t need a council all of a sudden. They never had a reformation, they never have changed their liturgy to make it more modern, they’ve never even debated women’s ordination or had to bring it up, they never change…I see Catholicism much the opposite…

I find them intriguing. I do admit to having believed in Anselm’s views on substitutionary atonement my whole life. I have always looked at the Atonement as Israel’s sacrifices of blood to the Lord as a prefiguration of it. Isaiah 53 has always weighed heavily on my thinking while Romans played into things a great deal. I’ve always seen the Way of the Cross, the Stations, the suffering, as being something intertwined in the salvation story. I have always seen the pains, sufferings, and rejections that Christ experienced as atoning for what I deserve. I appreciate the emphasis the Orthodox place on overcoming death. I have always believed that the emphasis should lay there. And I agree with theosis, always did. Theosis is a Catholic idea as well. I can appreciate the idea that EO’s have that substitutionary atonement, in its aims to return God the honor lost in the garden makes it look like the thing standing in the way of man and salvation is God. That does make sense. In the ransom views Satan is standing in the way and God is fighting to get us back. It does make sense really. I don’t know…still studying the issue.

One thing you have to give me, Meghan, is that I don’t pretend to know it all and I’m open to different views…I’m not a dogmatic…

No, I’ve never seen you act like you know it all!

One thought I have about what you said about your family history. I agree it seems strange, OTOH, for someone from a non-Christian country or ancestry faced with Christianity, it would be a similar kind of feeling I think. I think the thing is, none of this means that they did not have a real relationship of some kind with God - even if they were a Buddhist and refrained from commenting on God’s existence at all. God is Truth, and if our hearts are striving towards that, he knows and accepts whatever love, or worship, or respect, we offer him. Even if we have some far out ideas.

I personally do really struggle with the idea that from an Orthodox perspective, the sacraments in the church I personally attend may not be “real”. I am sure that God is really with us as a congregation, and I know many very holy Anglicans.

But I think I am with you on the idea of church governance model being fundamental in some sense. It seems to me that it may be there that whatever has gone wrong in the West has its origins.

It sounds like we have similar ethnic backgrounds: I’m Irish, English, Scottish, French, German, and Dutch.