Should I check out a Russian or a Greek church first?

[gurneyhalleck1]

My mom is in DAR (Daughters of the American Revolution) and she has traced our ancestry back to the Middle Ages. She’s amazing in her abilities with geneaology. She eats it up…I have Anglican rectors, Calvinist pastors, and staunch Irish Catholics in my background. I have British loyalist and American patriot rebel blood. No wonder I’m a mess with deciding on this stuff! Too much conflict!

No, I’ve never seen you act like you know it all!

One thought I have about what you said about your family history. I agree it seems strange, OTOH, for someone from a non-Christian country or ancestry faced with Christianity, it would be a similar kind of feeling I think. I think the thing is, none of this means that they did not have a real relationship of some kind with God - even if they were a Buddhist and refrained from commenting on God’s existence at all. God is Truth, and if our hearts are striving towards that, he knows and accepts whatever love, or worship, or respect, we offer him. Even if we have some far out ideas.

I personally do really struggle with the idea that from an Orthodox perspective, the sacraments in the church I personally attend may not be “real”. I am sure that God is really with us as a congregation, and I know many very holy Anglicans.

But I think I am with you on the idea of church governance model being fundamental in some sense. It seems to me that it may be there that whatever has gone wrong in the West has its origins.

It sounds like we have similar ethnic backgrounds: I’m Irish, English, Scottish, French, German, and Dutch.

 

[Hesychios]

My mom is in DAR (Daughters of the American Revolution) and she has traced our ancestry back to the Middle Ages. She’s amazing in her abilities with geneaology. She eats it up…I have Anglican rectors, Calvinist pastors, and staunch Irish Catholics in my background. I have British loyalist and American patriot rebel blood. No wonder I’m a mess with deciding on this stuff! Too much conflict!

Interesting.

My daughter is DAR through my mother. Mostly Baptists and Presbyterians a long way back.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Baptists and Presbyterians to Eastern Orthodoxy…you’ve come a long way, baby!

Interesting.

My daughter is DAR through my mother. Mostly Baptists and Presbyterians a long way back.

 

[Hesychios]

Yes, I’m related to him by marriage. I think that wonderful Presbytera was a “one-off.”

I know you wouldn’t attack me if I told you I was UGCC . . .

(Or would you?)

Alex

I would …

… kiss you three times

http://orthodox-islington.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/six62.jpg

 

[Bluegoat]

My mom is in DAR (Daughters of the American Revolution) and she has traced our ancestry back to the Middle Ages. She’s amazing in her abilities with geneaology. She eats it up…I have Anglican rectors, Calvinist pastors, and staunch Irish Catholics in my background. I have British loyalist and American patriot rebel blood. No wonder I’m a mess with deciding on this stuff! Too much conflict!

I had no idea there was such an organization. My Nana was part of the IODE - the Imperial Order of the Daughters of the Empire.

I think it would be fun to get the groups together, and maybe give them some foam swords or something.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Foam swords! …

Nah, I’d rather play with their minds and just escort them all into a white room and play Vangelis’ Blade Runner soundtrack followed by some Pink Floyd then give 'em Rohershack ink blot paintings…

I’m saying nonsensical stuff right now because I’m off to a school board meeting. My axons and dendrites don’t fire properly when I have an impending hour and a half of purgatory on earth listening to board members and district administrators!

My mom loves her DAR meetings and the folks except she always comes home and complains how they’re all a bunch of angry Republican women, rich and stuffy

I had no idea there was such an organization. My Nana was part of the IODE - the Imperial Order of the Daughters of the Empire.

I think it would be fun to get the groups together, and maybe give them some foam swords or something.

 

[steve_b]

You should know I’m open-minded,

Rawb is Orthodox and he invited me to check out his Serbian Orthodox parish. I have been reading Timothy (Kallistos) Ware’s book “The Orthodox Church,” reading my Meyendorff books, and honestly I’m just at a crossroads where I’ve been an interloper between Anglicanism and Catholicism back and forth back and forth only to come up feeling spiritually dry and empty from both. The Orthodox argue that Catholicism and Protestantism are just two sides of the same coin. Having lived in both, I’m starting to concur? I struggle with the Atonement issue, as you know. And there’s much I love about Catholicism.

The Catholic Church corporately starting with the Vatican, is extremely charitable towards the Orthodox. The reverse sad to say is not the case, even though no ONE can speak corporately for all the Orthodox churches…

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Well the Orthodox cannot negotiate with Rome on the terms that Rome has set forth. The Orthodox could’ve lived side by side with Catholics and the filioque and leavened bread and all the other things, the Anselmian thinking, etc. But what the Orthodox will not put up with is papal infallibility and universal jurisdiction papal claims. With the papal understanding of the papacy itself and the Catholic views on councils and dogma and seeing Orthodoxy as “the other lung,” reunion is impossible. The Orthodox would require the Catholics to renounce the centerpiece of their modern image of what the Church is, papal infallibility and papal supremacy. They would be required to admit that, for the last 150 years or so that their claims of a monarchical model of the papacy are wrong and come home to Orthodoxy. That will never happen…

So I’m not so sure Orthodox are stubborn and not loving to Catholics, they just aren’t willing to meet on the terms Catholics expect.

The Catholic Church corporately starting with the Vatican, is extremely charitable towards the Orthodox. The reverse sad to say is not the case, even though no ONE can speak corporately for all the Orthodox churches…

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

The Orthodox could’ve lived side by side with Catholics and the filioque and leavened bread and all the other things,

I’m not so sure of this… to put it mildly.

Since the original thread is about Russian or Greek, here’s my own experience with the Russian EOC. I met a Russian woman back in 2004, and I went with her to the ROCOR (Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia) service. One of the first things I learned that all New Calendar Churches are “not really Orthodox”. There are three other Orthodox churches in the city (New Orleans, Louisiana) I was living in, namely a Greek EO, an Antiochian EO, and the Basilian Fathers’ church which serves both the EO and WO Divine Liturgy, but those were “apostate”, “not really Orthodox”, as far as ROCOR was concerned. Thus, the community made up of Russians and others (including a guy of Greek heritage - but he subscribed to the Mount Athos version of Greek Orthodoxy, which is Old Calendar) rather drove more than 100 miles and 3 hours to the nearest ROCOR church two states away in Alabama, because that was “truly Orthodox”.

The number one problem was that these other churches (the local “apostate” churches) accepted the New Calendar. But also, the fact that they had pews, and that the Greek one (also the Antiochian one, I seem to remember) had musical instruments, were critical offenses to Orthodoxy. The Russians insist on no pews, no musical instruments (only human voice). And the ROCOR priest told his parishioners not to attend those other EOC except in special cases when there was no access to a “truly Orthodox” Old Calendar church, and not to present themselves for Holy Communion in the New Calendar (Greek, Antiochian) churches.

Since the benign-looking differences like pews and musical instruments are so major to the Russians (not to mention the Calendar!) that they will break communion with fellow EO over those issues, I came to understand that they will only naturally reject communion with the Catholic Churches, over other issues such as the filioque, unleavened bread, and beardless clergy in the Catholic Churches.

See here:

orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=21910.0;wap2

Quote:

**An Orthodox man gets on the train and takes his seat.
After a while, he notices an Orthodox Cross on the man next to him.
After a while longer he asks, “Sir, I couldn’t help noticing you’re wearing an Orthodox Cross. Are you an Orthodox Christian?”
The passenger answers, “Yes, I am.”
The man says, “Oh! I am too! Are you Greek or Russian Orthodox?”
“I’m Russian Orthodox.” The man says,
“Ohhh, so am I! Are you Old Calendar Russian Orthodox or New Calendar Russian Orthodox?” "
I’m Old Calendar Russian Orthodox." The man says,
“Alleluia! I am too! Are you Old Calendar Anti-Ecumenist Russian Orthodox or Old Calendar Pro-Ecumenist Russian Orthodox?”
“I’m Old Calendar Anti-Ecumenist Russian Orthodox.” The man says,
“Ooooh! Well, I am too! Are you Old Calendar Anti-Ecumenist New Ritualist Russian Orthodox, or Old Calendar Anti-Ecumenist Old Ritualist Russian Orthodox?”
“I’m Old Calendar Anti-Ecumenist New Ritualist Russian Orthodox.” The man says,
“Well, glory to God! I am too! Are you Old Calendar Anti-Ecumenist New Ritualist Old-Man Trinity Icon-using Russian Orthodox, or Old Calendar Anti-Ecumenist New Ritualist non-Old-Man Trinity icon-using Russian Orthodox?”
“I’m Old Calendar Anti-Ecumenist New Ritualist Old-Man Trinity icon-using Russian Orthodox.”
So the man says, “Aaaaaaa, you damned heretic! May you burn in hell forever!” **

And another version from:

home.comcast.net/~acbfp/topten.html

Quote:

**Train Tale

Two people meet on a train. After some introductory chat, they discover both are Orthodox and of Russian descent.

Vlad: Old Calendar or New Calendar?
Alex: Old.
Vlad: Very good. Do you have a three-hour Vigil in church every Saturday night and before every holy day, even if the holy day is on a Monday?
Alex: Yes.
Vlad: Excellent. Pews or no pews?
Alex: No.
Vlad: Clean-shaven or bearded priest?
Alex: Bearded.
Vlad: Does he wear his cassock and cross on the street?
Alex: Da.
Vlad: Is your jurisdiction ecumenist or non-ecumenist?
Alex: Non.
Vlad: Do you have an old-man Trinity icon?
Alex: Uh, yes.
Vlad: Aha! Heretic! **

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

Heck, even something seemingly as inconsequential as making a full prostration versus half prostration at a certain moment in the DL is serious enough to warrant the Tradition of engaging in fistfights over it, according to the Russian joke below! And before anyone says, hey, that’s a ROCOR thing - NO, IT’S A RUSSIAN THING!!! There’s no longer ROCOR, and look at the joke - it’s not a ROCOR joke, it’s a RUSSIAN joke.

Quote from:

home.comcast.net/~acbfp/topten.html

**Which Is The Tradition?

In the village of Omsk all was not well in the local Pokrov Parish. Every year, during Lent, at ‘Blessed art Thou, O Lord, teach me Thy statutes’, half of the congregation would make a metany at the waist, and half would make a full prostration. The little metanists would start whispering sharply, ‘No! No! From the waist!’ To which the great metanists would hiss back even louder, ‘Wrong! Full prostration! Who are you following, the Devil?!’ And fistfights would break out and the service could not even be completed.

Finally the war-weary parishioners decided to ask their priest, Fr Veniamin. ‘Batiushka, what is the tradition? In Lent, at “Blessed art Thou”, do we make a little metany, or a great metany?’ Knowing the rancour attached to the dispute, poor Fr Veniamin trembled, grew pale, then fainted dead away and fell backwards.

So next they went to the Skete of the Forerunner, and asked Fr Onouphry: ‘Batiushka, we want to know, we have a terrible argument at Omsk–what is the tradition? Because half the people say to make small metanies at “Blessed art Thou” now, and half say great metanies. And we start fighting, terrible, terrible. So, tell us, what is the Tradition?’ Seeing the ferocity in their faces, poor Hieromonk Anatoly simply fainted dead away.

Then someone shouted, ‘Let’s go to Elder Ioann and ask him!’ It was a marvellous idea. Surely the elder’s answer would bring peace, for he was respected by all, a native of Omsk, and his hoary 94 years guaranteed a knowledge of what the old tradition had been.

So a large crowd gathered at the elder’s dacha on the outskirts of town. Some 15 men from both sides entered the dacha, and found frail Elder Ioann lying on his bed. As he struggled to draw himself up and offer tea, they cut him off: ‘Elder Ioann, you have to help us! What is the Tradition? Every year in Lent, at “Blessed art Thou, O Lord”, half of the people at Pokrov make little metanies, and half the people great metanies, and we start to argue, and the service doesn’t even finish because of the fistfight!’ Then Elder Ioann said firmly, in his voice shaking with age, and with tears streaming down his joyful face, ‘That…* is*… the Tradition!’ **

When I showed this joke to my Russian date (born and raised in Russia), she especially appreciated the part about “Who are you following, the Devil?!” That is very authentically Russian and Orthodox, according to her.

When I first told her about Eucharistic miracles in the Catholic Church, and she harshly replied “Don’t bring the Devil to the chalice!” - meaning don’t even mention your Catholic stuff in the same sentence with the Eucharist of the EOC -, I was shocked, but not so much after I learned more about the Russian psyche, so well illustrated by the joke above.

I briefly did consider converting to Eastern Orthodoxy at that time. Since I grew up in Romania, a country which is at least 80% EO, I asked about the Romanian EOC. My Russian acquaintances first asked, are the Romanians Old Calendar or New? When I said, New, that was all they needed to hear. Yup, Heretics - that was the answer. They didn’t even ask whether the Romanian churches had pews or no pews, musical instruments, or if the Romanian priests have beards and wear cassocks. No, they are damned New Calendar heretics - regardless of anything else.

After this, I started to think more about my native city in Romania, and how there were two (2) EO churches in my meighborhood, one Romanian and one Serbian. I mean, we have Catholic churches where they celebrate Sunday Mass in three languages like Hungarian, Romanian, German, they didn’t need to build separate Hungarian Catholic, Romanian Catholic, German Catholic churches. And there’s a Catholic pilgrimage site not far from my native city where they celebrate Mass in 5 languages and more, no need to build 5 or more different churches for all the nations. So, why did the Romanians and the Serbs need to build 2 separate churches, within 100 meters (300 feet) of each other? Well, you see, the Serbians are Old Calendar, but the Romanians are damned heretics.

Which brings me to the next joke:

home.comcast.net/~acbfp/topten.html

Quote:

**Russian Orthodox ‘Survivor’

Robinson Krusovsky was shipwrecked on an empty Pacific island. When after a long time a rescue ship came to pick him up, the rescue party found two churches Robinson had built, complete with domes and three-bar crosses on top. ‘Why two?’ they asked. ‘One is the church I go to,’ Robinson explained. ‘The other is the church I don’t go to!’**

There’s also an Ukrainian version to the joke above, as follows:

Robinson Hrusoev builds not two, but three churches. When the sailors ask him, why had he built three churches, he replies: "One is an Old Calendar church. Another one is a New Calendar church. And the third one, is the one in which I wouldn’t get caught dead!"

 

[fred_conty]

I’m a Russian … but I gratefully spent many evenings during the recent Great Lent in services at the Greek Orthodox Cathedral.

How far are you from Salinas? Fr. Anthony, Ruthenian, celebrates Divine Liturgy there 2nd & 4th Saturdays. He’s a *wonderful *priest! (See “Fr-Anthony Hernandez” on Facebook.)

Bizantine and Roman rite is your faith and you spent lent with the Greek Orthodox?

Do I see a contradiction here, or am I missunderstanding something? Maybe you could explain it, because I’m really curious. Thanks.

 

[steve_b]

Well the Orthodox cannot negotiate with Rome on the terms that Rome has set forth. The Orthodox could’ve lived side by side with Catholics and the filioque and leavened bread and all the other things, the Anselmian thinking, etc. But what the Orthodox will not put up with is papal infallibility and universal jurisdiction papal claims. With the papal understanding of the papacy itself and the Catholic views on councils and dogma and seeing Orthodoxy as “the other lung,” reunion is impossible. The Orthodox would require the Catholics to renounce the centerpiece of their modern image of what the Church is, papal infallibility and papal supremacy. They would be required to admit that, for the last 150 years or so that their claims of a monarchical model of the papacy are wrong and come home to Orthodoxy. That will never happen…

So I’m not so sure Orthodox are stubborn and not loving to Catholics, they just aren’t willing to meet on the terms Catholics expect.

And howz all that grumpiness working for them?

The other lung analogy I thought was a charitable analogy. If you don’t like it, and the EO don’t like it, then don’t use it.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I’m puzzled why you consider them grumpy? There were five patriarchates. One left the other three. The other four continued onward…Since the Roman Church separated itself from Orthodoxy it has adopted ideas they find ahistorical without precedent and flat out wrong. They don’t believe in papal infallibility and supremacy, scholasticism, the filioque, and many Western ways of looking at spirituality. That’s not grumpiness, it’s an unwillingness to bend to fit Rome. It’s almost humorous that Rome would expect them, after 2,000 years, to bend to innovation and accept an idea that the Church never expressed until the 1800’s…papal infallibility? As I’ve studied Orthodoxy, I see a religion that is in many ways radically different from Catholicism.

Catholics continue to look at everything through the lens of their own theology thinking that Orthodoxy is bound to sooner or later ‘come to its senses’ when they don’t realize that the East has no intention of altering their spirituality just for the sake of reunion.

The lung analogy is a Rome-centric viewpoint. It may sound charitable to Roman Catholics but for Orthodox it implies that something is lacking in Orthodoxy that requires reunion to be fullfilled. Orthodox feel they’ve been firing on all thrusters breathing with both lungs quite well since 1054…

I think it’s a real miscalculation Catholics make assuming that all this ordinariate stuff in Anglicanism is somehow a sign of things to come with Eastern Orthodoxy? Anglicans are cut from the same mold as Catholics in so many of their views and approaches to the Christian experience. Orthodoxy is not of that mold and an ordinariate scenario is just totally unrealistic for most Orthodox I would think…

And howz all that grumpiness working for them?

The other lung analogy I thought was a charitable analogy. If you don’t like it, and the EO don’t like it, then don’t use it.

 

[wynd]

I have been reading Timothy (Kallistos) Ware’s book “The Orthodox Church”

If I may, I recommend the book The Orthodox Way also by Bp. Kallistos. It’s more of an overview of the theology and spirituality and will give you more of a “feel” of Orthodoxy, whereas The Orthodox Church is more of a historical account and explanation of basic doctrines.

 

[Rawb]

I might suggest that perhaps the Orthodox you run into in life may be less “grumpy” if they were treated more politely. Rude jokes about another’s faith is not something usually looked upon kindly.

You should know, Mr. Varga, as you presume to speak on the subject, that Old Calendarists are rather similar to your church’s situation with the SSPX, so to base everything you hold on Orthodoxy by what you learned from OC’s is a mistake.

Roman Catholics should learn that, by Roman Catholic teaching, “The Other Lung” is not the Orthodox Church but your Eastern Catholics. Orthodoxy teaches that catholicity is based upon the bishop, priests, deacons and laity coming together in faith, not a geographical presence across the globe (indeed if it were based upon that, how could the Early Church have called itself Catholic?). The Other Lung analogy simply doesn’t apply to us, either by your use of it or our own understanding of ecclesiology.

With all due respect, many (not all but many) Roman Catholics on this board seem to believe that Orthodoxy hold on to our beliefs to spite Roman Catholics. Let me assure you, our beliefs have nothing to do with you. We do not spend our Coffee Hours discussing Roman Catholicism. For the most part you are off our radar entirely. We don’t discuss Anglicans, Baptists, or Methodists either. They’re irrelevant to our life.

At the same time, if y’all are desirous of reunion, we will insist upon Orthodoxy. We do not accept innovation. As Christ does, we are more than happy to receive any who wish to come to us, but we are firm. I say this with all due charity - The Orthodox do not feel we *need *anybody but Christ. We are more than happy to have others - joyous even! but The Church is not broken, it is not wounded, it is not missing something, it is catholic.

I only popped in on the request of a friend. I cannot promise I’ll post in this thread again.

 

[Harpazo]

I might suggest that perhaps the Orthodox you run into in life may be less “grumpy” if they were treated more politely. Rude jokes about another’s faith is not something usually looked upon kindly.

You should know, Mr. Varga, as you presume to speak on the subject, that Old Calendarists are rather similar to your church’s situation with the SSPX, so to base everything you hold on Orthodoxy by what you learned from OC’s is a mistake.

Roman Catholics should learn that, by Roman Catholic teaching, “The Other Lung” is not the Orthodox Church but your Eastern Catholics. Orthodoxy teaches that catholicity is based upon the bishop, priests, deacons and laity coming together in faith, not a geographical presence across the globe (indeed if it were based upon that, how could the Early Church have called itself Catholic?). The Other Lung analogy simply doesn’t apply to us, either by your use of it or our own understanding of ecclesiology.

With all due respect, many (not all but many) Roman Catholics on this board seem to believe that Orthodoxy hold on to our beliefs to spite Roman Catholics. Let me assure you, our beliefs have nothing to do with you. We do not spend our Coffee Hours discussing Roman Catholicism. For the most part you are off our radar entirely. We don’t discuss Anglicans, Baptists, or Methodists either. They’re irrelevant to our life.

At the same time, if y’all are desirous of reunion, we will insist upon Orthodoxy. We do not accept innovation. As Christ does, we are more than happy to receive any who wish to come to us, but we are firm. I say this with all due charity - The Orthodox do not feel we *need *anybody but Christ. We are more than happy to have others - joyous even! but The Church is not broken, it is not wounded, it is not missing something, it is catholic.

I only popped in on the request of a friend. I cannot promise I’ll post in this thread again.

Wonderfully stated, brother! It’s not that we don’t care about different groups, we just don’t think about the various sects as our goal is salvation.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[dvdjs]

I’m puzzled why you consider them grumpy? There were five patriarchates. One left the other three. The other four continued onward…
Since the Roman Church separated itself from Orthodoxy it has adopted ideas they find ahistorical without precedent and flat out wrong. They don’t believe in papal infallibility and supremacy, scholasticism, the filioque, and many Western ways of looking at spirituality. That’s not grumpiness, it’s an unwillingness to bend to fit Rome.

The trouble with this analysis is that is it is ahistorical and flat out wrong. Rome left the other Patriarchates? When was that? When was it that “the other three” reached a consensus - and why then? What is the current situation, and how does it impact on the reality of talking about “one left the other three”?

The many things that the Eastern Orthodox think are wrong with the Catholic church have varied greatly over the years. You may posit, for example, that azymes are not a problem, but some EOs have very, very strongly disagreed at one time or another. And when did the innovation of Byzantine absolutism set in: why on earth would a theological method, eg scholasticism be an impediment to communion?

You may buy in to the mythos of constant and unchanging Byzantine theology, praxis, and ecclesiology, and from that premise argue about the Catholic miscalculation. But that perspective is flawed by the false assumption. Scholars of the Byzantine tradition, like Fr Taft SJ, see the matter differently and think that the EOs need to dispel their cherished but deluded self-mythology, come to grips with actual history, and, in his words: “grow up”.

EOs certainly agree that they can’t abide Western ecclesiology. But note that they have been unable to do so for nearly a millenium before the there was a promulgation of the idea of papal infallibility. But do they have a clear idea of their own ecclesiology? Just look at the current discussion of Apst Canon 34 among EOs - not only in different jurisdictions (EP vs the world), but also, say in today’s OCA (read it, among the other stuff and weep: monomakhos.com/category/michalopulos-blog/
ocanews.org/). Or tell me, what are the prerogatives of metropolitans versus bishops in the Antiochian church?

It is easy to overlook so much among partners in tradition, but to be so strict in scrutiny among those in other traditions. So be it. But it is not unfair to call that grumpiness.

 

[Monica4316]

I have decided to check out some local Eastern Orthodox churches. One is a Russian Orthodox (ROCOR) and the other is a Greek Orthodox.

Which one should I check out first, coming as a newcomer?

Eastern Catholic? are you aware that the Orthodox are not Catholic and not in communion with the Pope? But Eastern Catholics are and have the same liturgy and traditions as the Orthodox

God bless

 

[dvdjs]

With all due respect, many (not all but many) Roman Catholics on this board seem to believe that Orthodoxy hold on to our beliefs to spite Roman Catholics. Let me assure you, our beliefs have nothing to do with you. We do not spend our Coffee Hours discussing Roman Catholicism. For the most part you are off our radar entirely. We don’t discuss Anglicans, Baptists, or Methodists either. They’re irrelevant to our life.

I suppose that mileage varies, and what you say may be true in your very limited experience. My experience is more extensive and differs from yours. We’ve been through this before on these threads: absolute statements about what EOs do and do not do (eg grant divorce) are proven false by other posts. It is probably best just to talk of your own experience rather than extrapolating to talk about what “we” do.

We do not accept innovation.

Except whenever you do.

As Christ does, we are more than happy to receive any who wish to come to us, but we are firm …The Orthodox do not feel we *need *anybody but Christ.

I think this also may be wrong, but if not, it is a real difference. The great commission and the parbable of the good shepherd, enliven and inform the outlook of the Catholic church which does feel the *need *to reach out to all and to bring all to union in Christ. It is a revealing sign.

 

[Rawb]

I suppose that mileage varies, and what you say may be true in your very limited experience. My experience is more extensive and differs from yours. We’ve been through this before on these threads: absolute statements about what EOs do and do not do (eg grant divorce) are proven false by other posts. It is probably best just to talk of your own experience rather than extrapolating to talk about what “we” do.

I’m quite sorry, I should make sure that I don’t have my own experiences, nor share them, because after all, it is obvious and a fact that yours are far more “extensive” and more true than someone who’s actually, you know, practicing Orthodoxy. Frankly dvdjs you come across as condescending and rude. You catch more flies with vinegar than honey, and aren’t you trying to bring us schismatics (in my case even a former Roman! The horror!) back to Rome? You’re not going to do it by being patronizing to those you hope to convert.

Except whenever you do.

Again, see above.

I think this also may be wrong, but if not, it is a real difference. The great commission and the parbable of the good shepherd, enliven and inform the outlook of the Catholic church which does feel the *need *to reach out to all and to bring all to union in Christ. It is a revealing sign.

I find this interesting coming from a Byzantine Catholic, when in the Eastern forum right now there’s a thread on how Eastern Catholicism is dying, how they need to re-awaken the ethnic, tribal identities that those parishes exist to serve. “Reaching out” seems to be quite insular in your flavor of Roman Catholicism.

But we do not agree, dvdjs, nor I doubt shall we, and your posts serve no purpose for me, so if I don’t respond to you again, it will be simply because I’ve blocked your posts. I’m sorry it must be this way, but I must look to my own soul, and interacting with you does not help in my spiritual life. Goodbye, may God keep you.