Should I close the door on this friendship?

[Advocatus_Fidei]

True loyalty to the Church and God would demand that one acknowledges that some thing done by humans in its name are indefensible. I don’t know what his Wiccan friend’s beef with the church is. It could be something as serious as being an abuse victim. It may be something as trivial as a pastor who was once a jerk to her. It may be a wild misunderstanding about what the church really stands for. The point is, it’s worth the dialogue and to make clear that he is called to serve Christ in this way, and should not be held responsible personally for all the church’s people have done or failed to do in the world.

If indeed this new Catholic has a “duty” to lead others away from their spiritual path, how exactly is breaking off the friendship going to accomplish that? My own friend in no way thinks my religion is ok, but he also accepts that people have free will and that his own God is not a helpless fool who needs humans to mete out his judgement. He’s also smart enough to realize that no one has ever been badgered into true conversion and that the best way, the only real way, to do effective work for Christ is to try to be, well…Christ-like in one’s approach to others. Every circumstance is different, but I simply don’t believe that doctrine demands un-conditional non-association in all such cases. If my friend’s priest or confessor really thought his friendship with me was an issue, I’d have been out the door a long time ago, and I have no doubt it’s come up somewhere along the way.

Well that is the question isn’t it, should they stay friends and try and bring them into the true church or is the person not open to that in which case the friendship must be broke off.

That is the decision that must be made.

To me it sounded like the friend is not open to that possibility hence my opinion that the friendship should end.

But if it continues then the Catholic has a duty top bring the friend to the truth.

The option presented by the Wiccan however is not a option a Catholic can truly consider, that of treating Wicca as if it was equal to the Catholic Faith and that they have no problem with the friend been a Wiccan.

 

[StJudePray4Me]

Hi Netty – Just wanted to suggest one more possibility, it was the first thing that came to my mind when I read your post.

I wonder if you friend fears that you will abandon her; that you will change your opinion of her/her beliefs, due to your conversion. Sometimes people who fear rejection, try to reject the other person first…

I think Easter gave great advice to just simply ask “What gives?”

Good luck.

 

[adrift]

Hi Netty – Just wanted to suggest one more possibility, it was the first thing that came to my mind when I read your post.

I wonder if you friend fears that you will abandon her; that you will change your opinion of her/her beliefs, due to your conversion. Sometimes people who fear rejection, try to reject the other person first…

I think Easter gave great advice to just simply ask “What gives?”

Good luck.

This is what also came to my mind first. An honest discussion is what I would hope you could achieve. The rest here can help by praying for you which I will do. I hope and pray everything goes well for you.

Hail Mary full of grace the Lord is with you.
Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb Jesus
Holy Mary Mother of God pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.

Guardian Angel protect Netty1 as she tackles this problem with her friend. Give her insight and love.
Amen

 

[EasterJoy]

Here comes the prophets of doom and gloom.

There’s always a few lurking around.

“Enemy of God” - :extrahappy: - what a self-righteous holier-than-thou comment to make, especially without actually knowing the person in question.

With this kind of mentality rampant, we’d be back to the dark ages again. Luckily it isn’t.

Netty, to be honest, these are the kinds of people you should avoid, and there’ll be quite a few in the Church, they always hold the “extreme” views of everything - for once, the majority consensus in this thread is right.

Suspicious, will you at least admit that there are people out there who do want to be the enemy of God as we Catholics understand God, and let someone else recognize that choice and act accordingly?

This friend of the OP’s isn’t a happy live-and-let-live, let’s-all-turn-to-our-Higher-Power-as-we-understand-Him/Her/It-to-be kind of non-Catholic. She is, in fact, a blunt enemy of the Church, and an extremely rude one at that. The only question is why she is like that.

Now, while I would argue that a 15-year friendship warrants some investigation into where this all comes from, because there are some people who get into that state through the fault of Christians, nevertheless, it is an extreme view to expect people to hang around as close friends with someone who constantly attacks their personal spirituality. You wouldn’t expect a Wiccan to hang around with Christians who called her a devil-worshipper or who called other Wiccans charlatans and frauds, would you? Of course not. While a 15 year friendship might call for a stab at education and an amendment of behavior, it wouldn’t call for hanging around to be indirectly abused.

The truth is, you’re telling the OP to avoid people with “extreme” views. It looks very much as if this friend of hers is in fact one of those very people. What now, dear Suspicious? If you were to examine your views in this way, you’d find you’d have a double standard, wouldn’t you?

 

[Netty1]

Well friends, I took the stopper out of the bottle today and (excuse the mixed metaphors) what a can of worms that opened.

We met up for coffee and cake (something we had done regularly for years until this sticky patch). I came away from the situation with a lot of sadness. After all these years I thought I knew my friend better, and I certainly thought she knew me better.

I was worried about how I was going to raise the subject, but it turned out that she gave me an ideal opening for getting to the point after about 20 minutes of small talk, by asking if Pope Benedict was likely to cancel his visit, being as the campaign to get him arrested on arrival in the UK was still going ahead. Some secularists/atheists mistakenly think they can get His Holiness arrested for complicity in child sex abuse (which they can’t, but that doesn’t stop them from talking about it). This is a subject she has raised before when it hit the headlines a few weeks ago but since the last time, she has seen some more press about it on secularist web sites.

I should explain that my path was opened up by Pope Benedict. He caught my attention when he was elected and I ended up reading his books and that’s how it all started for me. I just love that venerable, wonderful man and I have him to thank for switching the light on for me. I’ve never made any secret of my admiration for him.

I asked why she felt the need to target anything Catholic these days and the question opened the flood-gates and what came out was quite a rant (it lasted through two jumbo cappuccinos and a glass of wine each) but it boiled down to these main points. Words or phrases that I remember specifically I have put into quotes:

• All Christianity is male-dominated anyway, but Catholicism is the worst example (“arrogant” was the word used) because of no female priests and a male hierarchy “bogged down in the dark ages”.
• That it is “insulting” to women to make us “second-class citizens” by denying us equal status.
• The RC Church has kept women “in shackles” for hundreds of years, it “disempowers” women and forces them to have children even when they don’t want them by banning contraception.
• The RC Church will take me away from my family and friends, she quoted at me an incomplete section of the 2nd Commandment, the bit about a “jealous God”, as evidence.
• All organised religions are cults which don’t allow people any freedom to be how mother nature intended them to be which is “free”.
• Am I not worried about being tarred with the same brush as paedophiles
• How can I join “an outfit” which has a history of torture, brain-washing and support of colonial invasion with the “extermination of innocent people”. The Jesuits came into this bit somewhere.
• How “arrogant” is the religion that decides that everyone who doesn’t believe the same way is going to hell.
• And last but not least: she thought I was “more intelligent” than to fall for this “clap-trap”. (that’s an English word which may not translate into American very well. It basically means ‘rubbish’)

As I listened I looked at first for an opening to respond, but then decided not to because I could see she was not in the mood to listen, it was obvious this had been builidng up inside her for sometime because it all came spilling out. I also decided it might not be the best moment to ask if she had some bad experience in the past with someone who was Catholic.

When it seemed like she’d run out of steam, I decided to leave with saying that I was sorry she felt that way, but when she has had time to think things over, I would be more than happy to explore all these things and come to some kind of peace if we could, and if she would give me a fair chance to defend my church and faith. I did slip in there at that point a suggestion inspired by EasterJoy, by adding “after all, you hate it when people make ill-informed assumptions about Wicca.”

Anyway I left, and she didn’t try to stop me, and so I think I’ll leave it there and let her come to me if she wants to. I just ended up sad about the whole thing.

One of the things I’ve noticed about Catholics in general is that people get worried when they think another Catholic’s faith is being undermined and so I just want to add that my faith is still 100% intact. However, my spirit is subdued that someone I thought of as fair-minded was habouring such anger based on such incomplete information, but obviously felt she couldn’t discuss it with me. I never realised she felt this strongly about Christians per se, and never about Catholics in particular so I’m also taking a look at myself to make sure I’m not putting up barriers to communication.

Thanks to everyone for listening and giving me some ideas of how to approach this problem. All parts of the discussion and all the suggestions helped me to focus my thinking.

I’d be really happy to hear your opinions on what I could have done differently today. Defending the faith and our church is something that I’m going to have to learn to do, even if I never meet another situation quite like this one!

 

[Em_in_FL]

Well first off… (((HUGS)))… I’m sorry you are dealing with this.

I think you handled the situation magnificently… obviously since none of us were there, pointing out any perceived errors you may have made is useless. Some personalities may have been more assertive in defending the faith on every nonsensical claim she was making, and other personalities would have shied away or broken down crying in their lack of defense… but since you were aware of her need to just “vent”, I think you did beautifully by your description.

Yes, you walked away from the meeting sad, but you said nothing you’ll regret. She, on the other hand, will probably never find true “peace” where she is now. I think the line you quoted from EasterJoy was PERFECT - and hopefully it will make her think a little about assumptions.

If she does want to engage in further conversations - go to the SOURCE of the teachings of the faith for your answers. Don’t try to answer with your personal feelings because that never does justice to the beauty of the faith…

Anyway… (((HUGS))) and prayers for YOU. You were kind, open-hearted, and listened to your friend as she spilled her hate for your faith in front of you. This is more than most people could tolerate, so I think that says a lot about your strength and love. Be open to her questions and continue to respond in love.
You did good work.

 

[Advocatus_Fidei]

I hate to tell you but you are in for a hard ride, in the UK all those things your friend mentioned are what most people think about the Church, I live in the UK to and have heard it all before many times, hatred of Catholicism is the only hatred still allowed in British society, in fact its quite fashionable.

But after all they nailed Christ to a cross so how can we expect to be treat any better given that He was much more lovable than we are and they still hated Him.

"Remember my word that I said to you: The servant is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you: if they have kept my word, they will keep yours also.

But all these things they will do to you for my name’s sake: because they know not him who sent me. If I had not come, and spoken to them, they would not have sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin. He that hateth me, hateth my Father also. If I had not done among them the works that no other man hath done, they would not have sin; but now they have both seen and hated both me and my Father. But that the word may be fulfilled which is written in their law: They hated me without cause." John 15:20-25

 

[kenofken]

Having read about the encounter with your friend, I’m sorry it turned out that way. I don’t think there’s anything you could have done differently. But cheer up. This wasn’t your worst day defending your new faith. You will have many worse ones. Both Wicca and Catholicism are magnets for abuse. You develop a thick skin in short order.

 

[PatriciaDeStefa]

Hi,
I recently closed the door on a fifty year relationship that started in the second grade. My liberal,atheist friend worships education and believes it to be the cure for all societies ills. I believe God is the answer. It got to the point where I could no longer tolerate her attitude of superiority toward others, when she relies on perscription mood elevators just to cope with her frustrating life.
I drive by the entrance to her subdivision on my way to and from work everyday so I think of her daily. It used to cause me pain but now I just pray for her twice a day and feel much better about the whole situation. I could never find a way to talk to her about perhaps eploring faith. She new better. So I pray that she recieve the gift of God’s grace.

Our precious time is better spent in positive relationships. I say, live your life in the best way you can. In time, she may see how your way is the right way.
Good luck. Don’t be too sad about the loss.
God bless you

 

[tabsie3210]

(I hope I’m posting this in the correct thread!)

I’ve got a situation that I need some inspiration on how to handle sensitively.

I’m a pretty recent convert and have a very old friend from pre-Catholic days who is a Wiccan. (I can almost see everyone nodding “Ah-ha I think I know where this one is going!”)

The problem is that she keeps making snide remarks about my faith, about the RC Church, about priests, about anything really to do with Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular. Sometimes the remarks have a barely concealed anger to them.

I didn’t really think I would have this problem with her because prior to my revealing to her my “swim across the Tiber”, she never much mentioned any other beliefs and if she did, it was along the lines of “live and let live”. Well, she is certainly not letting me “live and let live” at the moment!

It’s getting to the point where I just don’t want to see her and the problem with that, is I feel rather guilty about just closing 15 years of what used to be a nice friendship. It also feels like I would be abandoning her in her wilderness.

I pray for her for all sorts of reasons, not least of which I think her animosity is doing her more harm that it could ever do to me. I do it quietly, she has no idea I do pray for her.

I’ve asked in my own circle of Catholics and opinion has varied from just quietly ignore phone calls and texts, and move on without her (but continue to pray for her even so), to telling her up-front that what she is saying is offensive. I haven’t asked my priest yet because it seems such a trivial thing that I should be mature enough to handle on my own!

I really think I may have to leave this friendship behind because it’s not doing anyone any favours, but is this the right thing to do?

I’d really appreciate hearing what other people think about this.

With thanks.

It’s NOT trivial. Talk to your priest right away! I’ve been best friends with a pagan since I was 15, and I’m 33 now. It’s hard when you’re trying to be the best Catholic you can be and you feel like you’re being hurt by someone who doesn’t understand. Pray pray pray pray pray - and be as close to a perfect Catholic as you can be. If she pulls away, that’s her choice, but if not, then keep being as close to perfect as you can be, and preach to her every day - but only use words if necessary. The better a Catholic you are, the better your shot of getting her into heaven. God sent her to you because you have to be the Church. Remember, outside the Church there’s no salvation, right? That’s a blessing! Through you and your constant prayers, she gets a chance to get inside the church!

Remember St. Faustina? In her diary “Divine Mercy In My Soul,” she recounts how she was told by Christ to pray for a dying stranger. Even though he seemed hopeless, St. Faustina had a vision of the man being given a final chance on his death bed, a moment of overwhelming grace, which he accpted with love, and God forgave him all sin and debt!

Maybe it seems hopeless to you, but it’s not, because all things are possible with God. Ultimately, if she rejects God, she’ll go to Hell, but that will be her own free will choice - and as long as you’re there, praying for her, God will pour grace onto her, so that if it comes down to the wire, even if it’s a last-minute kind of thing, if the grace is sufficient, she may choose God over Hell, and it will be thanks to you and your prayers!

My recommendations - the Divine Mercy Chaplet said especially for her, plus this prayer from St. Faustina’s Diary -

“Oh Blood and Water, which gushed forth from the Heart of Jesus as a fount of mercy for us, I trust in you! Oh Blood and Wather, which gushed forth from the Heart of Jesus as a fount of mercy for us, I trust in you! Oh Blood and Water, which gushed forth from the heart of Jesus as a fount of mercy for us, I trust in you!”

That’s the prayer to conversion. Hold her in your heart while you pray it. Pray it daily. Also, pray a Rosary daily for strenght.

Now, having said all that, I’m not sure how to deal with her attitude directly. My suggestion would be to talk to her up front, but that’s not necessarily a good suggestion. Trust me, this is a worthy topic to bring up to your priest - it’s necessary. He’ll tell you better how to deal with this. Whatever he recommends, you have to remember that you’re the Church, and you’re especially the Church for her.

 

[Netty1]

Thanks to everyone for the comments and suggestions. I haven’t heard anything so far, but should my friend (and I still think of her that way) contact me, I’m going to try to start a more useful dialogue.

I’ve listened to some people posting who’ve said that maybe God is using me as a way of communication and example. I have to say that is a scary thought! That seems to be a awful lot of trust to place in such a new addition to the congregation.

But, even if all I can do is to is just somehow calm some of her anger and show that we don’t all fit the historical stereo-types of Catholicism then it’s worth it.

I hate to tell you but you are in for a hard ride, in the UK all those things your friend mentioned are what most people think about the Church, I live in the UK to and have heard it all before many times, hatred of Catholicism is the only hatred still allowed in British society, in fact its quite fashionable.

Having read about the encounter with your friend, I’m sorry it turned out that way. I don’t think there’s anything you could have done differently. But cheer up. This wasn’t your worst day defending your new faith. You will have many worse ones. Both Wicca and Catholicism are magnets for abuse. You develop a thick skin in short order.

I had a fairly classical history eduction and so can remember learning in school about the English Martyrs in the 1500s and 1600s (I seem to recall there were something like 150 priests, monks and nuns put to death over about 150 years?) so I’m aware that the RC Church has long had its enemies in the UK and I don’t think that has changed today.

The media onslaught from such people as Dawkins and Hitchins tests the British Catholic daily here. I was watching a programme today called The Big Question which debated whether the existence of God could be proved. The athiest corner was fought by Dr Christopher Atkins and it was chilling to see and feel the contempt drip from his face and voice. It was obvious that for him the question was not scientific or philisophical, it was personal and he could barely contain his hatred of the Christians and Muslims defending the existence of God.

Down through the centuries there have been social, legal and economic doors closed against Catholics in the UK and blatent aggression that society turned a blind eye to. I wasn’t under any illusions at the start of my journey that public opinion had changed any, if only for the reason demonstrated by my friend, the propaganda out there against us huge.

These days, it’s not just the slanted mirror of history that we fight, but also the perfidious slander of those who are trying to sink any kind of force for good, and that includes our Lord Jesus. I can’t see any other way except to do the best we can do and carry on going.

 

[cmscms]

Hi Everyone,

Thank you for such thought-provoking replies, every post has given me a great deal to think about.

One thing for sure, my faith is not shaky. It’s new so perhaps I’m little naive at times, but I feel sound on my baby spiritual feet. I know I’m “home” and it’s a long path crammed full of learning, but one I’m really at peace in following.

I was talking to my sister about this last night after posting here, and her perspective is that maybe my friend is just plain jealous.

Because of church and prayer-time and reading time, I have a new routine, there are now times of the week when I am simply not available to just drop everything and run off and do something spontaneous, I have to plan things a bit more to fit everything (and everybody) in. My sister thinks my friend may be hurt by the fear that I am leaving her behind and such fears have brought a knee-jerk angry response.

The ironic thing is that one reason I am loath to just cast her aside because it seems like I am abandoing her with all that anger, and that course of action seemed rather uncharitable.

So, maybe it is time to take the stopper out of the bottle and invite her to vent what her problem is with Catholicism. Your replies here have certainly given a large number of reasons as to why she may have anger.

I’ve printed out these pages of your replies and will have a really deep think and pray about what I should do next. I agree with the general idea that I should at least offer her a chance to vent to get to the bottom of why there is such animosity.

Thanks again everyone, I really do appreciate the time and trouble you’ve taken to reply.

Hi Netty,

I stopped reading after you posted this because it appears this thread has become a big debate and your original issue is being lost.

I am glad your sister helped you see she is perhaps hurt that you no longer have the time you use to for her. It is exactly what I was going to suggest. She isn’t about the faith part so much as the change in your routine part.

A quick background on where my advice is coming from.

12 years ago I was new in town. I made friends with a group of people. I was sutdying at night to advance my career. One girl in the group used to tell me to my face ‘I am laughing at you all you do is study he he he’. That comment usually came after a ‘hey want to go to the gym’ to which I would respond ‘I can’t I need to study’ She also took jabs at me for being Catholic.

Being new in town, and wanting to fit into the gang, I put up with it.

2 years later, everyone in the gang moved out of town except for her and me. Being bored I spent a lot of time with her. I lost my job, needed support and since she was my closest ‘friend’, I confided in her. Well, she had a hay day making fun of my problems. After 1.5 years of her abuse, I just told her never to contact me again.

Well, I have not seeing this woman in over 6 years. And this is not an exageration, at least 3 times a day bad memories of her pop into my mind and I churn resentments. I pray to God like a mad woman to heal me from this friendship and still I can not get over it.

So, my advice to you is 'If you genuinly feel she will not abuse your self esteem, try to work it out. But guard your heart. People can be sly and leave long lasting effects on you. And anyone who throws a tantrum (which in essesnce she is doing with her anger) is not mature enough to help her friend grow and don’t stick around someone who will trash your self esteem

CM

 

[kresbrook]

I am on the same page with CM, jumped to the last page to read you last post and avoid the side debate that seemed to take off. So if I repeat something already said, please forgive me.

Have you considered writing her a letter? Several reasons to use a letter rather than face to face confrontation:
1.) Won’t lead to a debate you are not ready for this early in your conversion.
2.) Will allow you, to allow God, to speak through your words via carefull introspection and prayer over what you want to/need to say.
3.) Will put the ‘ball in her court’, if she values your friendship and wants to continue it, she will know she will need to be more respectful of your views. If you never hear from her again you will know she was never a friend anyway.
4.) Will allow you piece of mind and hopefully avoid what CM had to suffer in the feelings like you were mistreated.

I send you my prayers for peace.

MLK (just my initials, not Martin Luther King)

 

[LookingForFaith]

I was a wiccan for a long while and have reverted back to the Catholic faith. I definately don’t think you should close the door on your friendship. Remind her that in her own faith there is the phrase “Live and Let live, fairly take and fairly give.” Tell her that she isn’t doing that at all, by mocking you and your faith. You don’t mock hers, so why should she mock yours? Just sit her down, be honest yet charitable and tell her how you are feeling. If she’s your friend than she will respect your wishes. If she doesn’t…well then you have your answer.