Should I convert to the Roman Catholic Church or the Eastern Orthodox Church?

[steve-b]

Again, a highly Latinized bishop.

[snip for space]

As ironic as it is, all the pieces are in place for reunion. Pope Francis is exactly what’s needed. Yes he drives the trads insane but he’s honest about the Papacy and has openly said the Papacy needs to decrease.

ZP

AND

You’re NOT addressing Canon 43 of the Eastern Canon Law

 

[ziapueblo]

The eastern churches don’t even recognize it as it is latinized. All agree it needs to be redone.

ZP

 

[steve-b]

The eastern churches don’t even recognize it as it is latinized. All agree it needs to be redone.

ZP

Show me a qualified source properly referenced, that says the Eastern Catholic Churches don’t recognize canon 43 of the Eastern Canon Law.

 

[ziapueblo]

There is no official written statement publicly and privately talked about.

ZP

 

[steve-b]

There is no official written statement publicly and privately talked about.

ZP

Again,

canon 43 of Eastern canons, explains what it means to be Catholic.

AND

as I said HERE that is the unity Jesus prayed for.

As an aside

Eastern canons “pontiff” is mentioned 120 times

 

[Margaret_Ann]

St.Andrew blessed the hills of Kiev, Ukraine and foretold that a great city would be built upon them. I never heard of him going to Byzantium.

 

[dochawk]

It’s merely the Second Ecumenical Council that recognizes him as the founder of the church of Byzantium, and his successors as second in precedence behind only Rome, and Byzantium as “equal to Rome” . . .

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

I am pretty sure there is a phrase in Catechism that defines Universal Jurisdiction of Pope. Whether he did or did not exercise it, it was his right. As citizen of my state I have right to run for president once reaching certain age- fact I did not does not mean I couldn’t. Universal Jurisdiction was definitely not in sense we know it now- Church was decentralized and big, communication was harder. Bishop of Rome did meddle in affairs of Eastern Churches whenever it was needed. Of course, some rights of Pope developed later (as having a say in election of Latin bishops) because of certain historical outcomes (nobles trying to corrupt Church). However, the fact Pope ratified Ecumenical Councils and had infallibility (again, dogma) concerning morals and faith ex cathedra, is clear from Pope Gregory the Great’s writings.

(don’t pull the “only” bishop card concerning Pope Gregory, that’s already solved)

also, there were “Roman Catholics” in Cyprian’s day- there were Romans, who were Roman and were also Catholic. Roman Catholic existed sooner than “Eastern Orthodox” as a term. I agree it has no real valid meaning in any discussion but your point was false nevertheless.

I am pretty sure Eastern Catholics all fall under Eastern Canon Law. If they didn’t, that would mean schism (refusal of submission to Roman Pontiff). I think your mistakes are mainly separated into two things:

1. Uniting Eastern Churches, whether Catholic or Orthodox, as being pretty much same
2. Splitting Catholics into Eastern and Latin, and interpreting them as different Church
   To me, those are practically reversed. In our country, Eastern Catholics who were to be forced to convert to Eastern Orthodoxy have rather relinquished their traditions to stay in communion with Christ’s Bride and became Latin Catholic. They held onto unity with Peter and Jesus rather than holding onto ever-changing traditions. I do not mean to imply traditions are not important, or that rites are not. But it is infinitely more important to remain faithful to Christ’s Church and Peter’s successor who is Bishop of Rome.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

While Paul was a great write and Apostle, and is mentioned many times in Papal Decrees and Encyclicals as being also the one who Popes succeed, being his successor has no real effect other than prestige. All bishops are successors of Apostles- it matters to be successor to Peter in Petrine ministry, not in Apostolic ministry. Every bishop can claim to be (in some sense) successor to any (or all) Apostles (including Peter) in their Apostolic ministry and full powers of priesthood. However, only Bishop of Rome can claim to be successor of Peter in sense of Petrine Ministry (and being Rock of the Church).

If Second Ecumenical Council recognized by Pope (so not the canon concerning Constantinople superceding other Patriarchs and being equal to Rome) recognizes St. Andrew as having formed Byzantium, it is clearly truth as Holy Spirit who leads Ecumenical Councils can not lie. If not, however, it is left to historical interpretation.

 

[ziapueblo]

Patriarch Gregory III Laham of the Melkite Greek Catholic Church, as a visitor at the Ukrainian Catholic synod a few years back commented that the Eastern Code of Canon Law needs to be revised.

Again, Roman Catholics telling Eastern Catholics what they should believe.

ZP

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Perhaps it should be revised- does not mean you don’t have to follow it right now or be bound by it. Latin Catholic can tell Eastern Catholic what to believe- as much as Eastern can tell Latin what to believe. We are One Church guided by Holy Spirit, guide of truth. If Papal Infallibility is a dogma in the West, it is equally true in the East. You can change point of view (East’s stance on purgatory, Dormition), but you can’t change the truth itself. We borrow from each other, I can pray Eastern prayers and my Eastern Catholic friend can pray Latin prayers. There is virtually no division in the Church, just variety of styles and ways to walk together.

 

[steve-b]

Patriarch Gregory III Laham of the Melkite Greek Catholic Church, as a visitor at the Ukrainian Catholic synod a few years back commented that the Eastern Code of Canon Law needs to be revised.

Again, Roman Catholics telling Eastern Catholics what they should believe.

ZP

And if something needs revising, it will be revised. Otherwise, what you see is the way it is

 

[ziapueblo]

Latin Catholic can tell Eastern Catholic what to believe- as much as Eastern can tell Latin what to believe.

What? The Eastern Catholic Churches have had our spiritual heritage ripped from us through latinizations which were forced into our Churches so that “look” Catholic. I know to many cradle Byzantine Catholics who have no idea about their spiritual tradition, and these are folks in their 50s and 60s down to their teens. Oh, of course, they know the Rosary and say it every morning before Divine Liturgy and neglect the Eastern tradition of praying the hours before Liturgy. This is a touchy subject for us and, thanks to Bishop Ireland, what gave way to the rise in the Orthodox Church here in the U.S.

So I guess you wouldn’t mind if we Easterners told you Latin’s how to express your faith, change the look and names of your Churches?

We are One Church guided by Holy Spirit, guide of truth.

Yes, but this does not mean uniformity. Communion in diversity!

ZP

 

[ziapueblo]

That’s fine. It holds very little water in the Eastern Churches anyway.

By the way, instead of continuing to quote a retired Melkite bishop. Why not look at what the rest of the Melkite world says?

ZP

 

[steve-b]

That’s fine. It holds very little water in the Eastern Churches anyway.

By the way, instead of continuing to quote a retired Melkite bishop. Why not look at what the rest of the Melkite world says?

ZP

So you’re saying the people you talk to and follow aren’t really in union with the Catholic Church?

AND

While BP John is retired, he is solid. I’m more than happy to quote him.

 

[ziapueblo]

There is virtually no division in the Church, just variety of styles and ways to walk together.

We are our own Churches that adhere to our own ecclesiastical traditions.

ZP

 

[ziapueblo]

But I see you never quote the current Bishop of the Eparchy of Newton or the Melkite Patriarch, or Zoghby, or the Melkite synods! You find one guy who agrees with you Latins and again, ignore the Melkite world!

ZP

 

[steve-b]

But I see you never quote the current Bishop of the Eparchy of Newton or the Melkite Patriarch, or Zoghby, or the Melkite synods! You find one guy who agrees with you Latins and again, ignore the Melkite world!

ZP

Since you seem to want to speak for ALL Eastern Catholics, I asked you for proof with references , properly referenced, to support your point

HERE

AND

You said there is NOTHING to support that view

HERE

So? what is it?

 

[ziapueblo]

What Eastern Catholic world do you live in @steve-b?

You seem to think you speak for Eastern Catholic.

ZP

 

[steve-b]

What Eastern Catholic world do you live in @steve-b?

You seem to think you speak for Eastern Catholic.

ZP

I quoted the Code of Canon Law of Eastern Catholic Churches. THAT is what the Eastern Churches believe or they wouldn’t be Eastern Catholics.

Now where is all this pushback from you coming from? Are you in union or not?