Should I date this girl?

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J1234

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-I am Catholic, male.

-I believe that it is mortally sinful, grave matter, (assuming full knowledge and full consent of the will) to:

– Have sex outside of marriage.
– French kiss outside of Marriage (and also while married but if done for mere lustful/sexual pleasure.)
– Hold hands or cuddle, if one person or the other or both do it out of lust and/or for sexual pleasure.
– To Entertain impure thoughts
– Not avoiding the near occasion of sin.
– Listen/Watch/Read/Play to impure Music, Movies, Books, Video Games, etc.

I have struggled with impurity, and pornography, most my life and have just recently come to believe that French kissing etc. is mortally sinful outside marriage. (I am trying to stop looking at pornopgrahy and go to confession often and pray). This means that I have never had a girlfriend yet that I didn’t French kiss. But I don’t want to sin or lead anyone to sin anymore now that I know it is mortally sinful.
Sometimes I feel I am called to the chaste single Life and should be a brother or monk or something of the sorts.

Knowing this, there is a girl that I have known for a few months.
  • She is not Catholic (She’s Lutheran I believe). But she has gone to Catholic mass a few times.
  • I have told her that I struggle with purity and that I consider French kissing mortally sinful, as well as that hand holding and cuddling can be sinful. I have told her that most often for me that I would hold hands with a girl for only lustful/sexual reasons. I have not yet told her about avoiding the near occasion of sin and entertaining impure.
  • She doesn’t seem to share many of my views but does seem willing to hear me out.
  • She said she is willing not to French kiss, or hold hands or cuddle, however, I don’t know how committed she is to this (she seems pretty committed though)
  • In order for me to Marry her she would have to become Catholic.
Almost every time (but not every single time) I see her though I think about making out with her or some sort of lustful thought, and this on my own, not like she’s doing anything (other than wearing perfume) to set me off.

Should I date her or should a stop seeing her all together to avoid the near occasion of sin? Does it look like I am called to something like living a single, chaste life like becoming a monk?
 
Date people you would marry. If you would not marry a non-Catholic, do not date a non Catholic.

About the rest, speak with your Priest.
 
J1234 said:
-I am Catholic, male.

-I believe that it is mortally sinful, grave matter, (assuming full knowledge and full consent of the will) to:

– Have sex outside of marriage.
– French kiss outside of Marriage (and also while married but if done for mere lustful/sexual pleasure.)
– Hold hands or cuddle, if one person or the other or both do it out of lust and/or for sexual pleasure.
– To Entertain impure thoughts
– Not avoiding the near occasion of sin.
– Listen/Watch/Read/Play to impure Music, Movies, Books, Video Games, etc.

I have struggled with impurity, and pornography, most my life and have just recently come to believe that French kissing etc. is mortally sinful outside marriage. (I am trying to stop looking at pornopgrahy and go to confession often and pray). This means that I have never had a girlfriend yet that I didn’t French kiss. But I don’t want to sin or lead anyone to sin anymore now that I know it is mortally sinful.
Sometimes I feel I am called to the chaste single Life and should be a brother or monk or something of the sorts.

Knowing this, there is a girl that I have known for a few months.
  • She is not Catholic (She’s Lutheran I believe). But she has gone to Catholic mass a few times.
  • I have told her that I struggle with purity and that I consider French kissing mortally sinful, as well as that hand holding and cuddling can be sinful. I have told her that most often for me that I would hold hands with a girl for only lustful/sexual reasons. I have not yet told her about avoiding the near occasion of sin and entertaining impure.
  • She doesn’t seem to share many of my views but does seem willing to hear me out.
  • She said she is willing not to French kiss, or hold hands or cuddle, however, I don’t know how committed she is to this (she seems pretty committed though)
  • In order for me to Marry her she would have to become Catholic.
Almost every time (but not every single time) I see her though I think about making out with her or some sort of lustful thought, and this on my own, not like she’s doing anything (other than wearing perfume) to set me off.

Should I date her or should a stop seeing her all together to avoid the near occasion of sin? Does it look like I am called to something like living a single, chaste life like becoming a monk?
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Not I or any1 else can answer that question. Only you can dicern what vocation He has called you to, but let me tell you somthing. Even monks, priests, and deacons have near sin occasions/temptations. Becoming one won’t make all that go away.

Too me, she sounds like a nice girl. I say this because she is not far from the Catholic faith and very friendly by what you describe. Sin and daily struggles are a cross we all must bare, but you mustn’t let the worries take over your life.

Do you like her and vice versa?
Do you both enjoy one another company?
Does she look forward to seeing you?
Is she open to the Catholic faith?

If yes to all of these, then IMO you should continue to court her. 🙂

Edit: Like the poster above me wrote, talk with your priest too.
 
I could handle the not french kissing… My boyfriend and I have discussed that, as well. I could probably handle the not holding hands, as well, but I’m a cuddler by nature.

But, if one of us has problems with impurity [that can be controllwed?] because of something, we do not do that, at any given time.
 
Hi J—I lean in agreement with kage, here.

I don’t see anything sinful with dating someone who is not Catholic…BUT…seeing that your faith is of utmost importance to you, it’s best to date a girl who is as devoutly Catholic as you, and who also stands for the same morals as you. You seem to be very in tuned with your conscience, so dating someone who is not on the same page (I don’t mean because she is not Catholic, I mean that she doesn’t fully seem to be on board with your thoughts on kissing, etc), could be a near occasion of sin for you.

I think you know what to do…date someone else.😉 Good luck & God bless…
 
What’s wrong with kissing? Holding hands? Cuddling? What kind of Church do we belong to, if it is sinful to do these things? Sheesh…
 
Wirraway said:
no.
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Willing not, as in she won’t do it if I I find it sinful.
So I am a little unclear to what your getting at.
ilovekittens said:
What’s wrong with kissing? Holding hands? Cuddling? What kind of Church do we belong to, if it is sinful to do these things? Sheesh…
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Holding hands, cuddling, and kissing, there’s no grave matter there (it’s not sinful, it would be a sign of affection or caring toward the other person I assume) unless one person or the other or both are doing it to obtain sexual pleasure. If someone is doing it to arouse somone else or themself or eachother, or to put themself in an occasion that could lead to making out and/or sex, then yes it would be sinful. Some people are very easily set off and simply holding hands for an extended period of time could do it.
 
J1234 said:
Willing not, as in she won’t do it if I I find it sinful.
So I am a little unclear to what your getting at.

Holding hands, cuddling, and kissing, there’s no grave matter there (it’s not sinful, it would be a sign of affection or caring toward the other person I assume) unless one person or the other or both are doing it to obtain sexual pleasure. If someone is doing it to arouse somone else or themself or eachother, or to put themself in an occasion that could lead to making out and/or sex, then yes it would be sinful. Some people are very easily set off and simply holding hands for an extended period of time could do it.
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I’ll let you in on a little secret. courting IS sexual in nature. look around you. every emotionally stable man or woman, single or part of a couple, has – and I guarantee this with a high level of certainty – french kissed, held hands, cuddled and even made out** before marriage**. just guessing here – God isn’t going to condemn you for getting a thrill from holding a girl’s hand.

setting out impossibly high standards and odd distinctions of moral conduct at this stage of your life (e.g., holding hands only if the couple is “caring”) is going to cause you far more problems in reaching emotional maturity than holding hands ever will.
 
I think you’re on the right track with your attitude towards dating, though I admit it’s very counter cultural. You should read this book, if you haven’t already:

amazon.com/Kissed-Dating-Goodbye-Attitude-Relationships/dp/1576730360

This book was written several years ago, and the author is now married. His advice is: make the most of your single life which is a gift; concentrate on your studies, on community activities, and your relationship with God. Don’t think you need to have a girlfriend at all times. Casual dating is not a good thing, and it often leads to people being used, so don’t even consider dating a woman until you decide you want to marry her. Also, no kissing until marriage!

And regarding your question, I agree with kage ar. If you aren’t interested in a serious relationship with her (since she’s not Catholic), don’t get anything started. One or both of you will just get hurt in the end. If you truly care about this girl, it may be the most loving thing for you to leave her alone. If God wants you to have a wife, he will send her your way.
 
Wirraway said:
I’ll let you in on a little secret. courting IS sexual in nature. look around you. every emotionally stable man or womansingle or part of a couple, has – and I guarantee this with a high level of certainty – french kissed, held hands, cuddled and even made out** before marriage**. just guessing here – God isn’t going to condemn you for getting a thrill from holding a girl’s hand.

setting out impossibly high standards and odd distinctions of moral conduct at this stage of your life (e.g., holding hands only if the couple is “caring”) is going to cause you far more problems in reaching emotional maturity than holding hands ever will.
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Matthew 5:27-28 “You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.” 28 But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states:
  1. Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. **Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself **, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes.
How can it be okay to hold a member of the opposites sex’s hand or French Kiss (outside marriage) when done for sexual arousal or if the person knows they will get aroused when doing so. (Still not saying that hand holding is grave matter only if done for sinful reasons).

How can it be okay to hold someones’s hand (outside marriage) for sexual pleasure or to French kiss (outiside marriage), when even just lusting after a women by look (in thought) is sinful?
Fr. Vincent Serpa:
Re: Is not avoiding a near occasion of sin a sin?

Hi,

A near occasion of sin isn’t a sin but an occasion where one may be tempted. To put oneself in such a situation is imprudent, but not sinful in itself. However, if one deliberately puts oneself in such a situation in the hope of sinning, one has already sinned by willing to sin. Sin begins with the will to sin.

Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.
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One form of The Act of Contrition:

O my God, I am heartily sorry for having offended Thee, and I detest all my sins because of Thy just punishments, but most of all because they offend Thee, my God, Who art all-good and deserving of all my love. I firmly resolve, with the help of Thy grace, to sin no more and to avoid the near occasions of sin.

So how can it be right to French Kiss out side of marriage if one of the persons or both know that they will be aroused sexually and entering a near occasion of sin? And for that matter if one knew hand holding would arouse them it would be their responsibility to stay away from that. (Again not saying it’s grave matter to hold hands and for most I assume it is just done out of loving affection, but for those who struggle and are so easily set off I would assume it is a different story when avoiding the near occasion of sin).

Some people are called to live chaste single lives which would mean avoiding near occasions of sin like French kissing.

And how’s is it any of this going to cause me problems in emotional maturity? There are other ways to mature emotionally. Living on one’s own, joining the army, sacrificing one’s time for the needy, etc.
 
j1234,

You did not say how old you are. Are you old enough to marry or in a position where you would be able to marry in the next year or so? One of the problems young people have in our modern culture is they are biologically sexually mature before they are in a position to marry. You have to be able to earn a living to marry and start a family and today that requires years of education and preparation. Maybe it is best to not get involved in courtship, which is looking for a mate, and having to wrestle with sexual stresses until one is ready to marry.

So if you are 15 or 16 and will probably go to college and be ready to find a job at 21, and you are committed to controlling your hormones and self restraint, maybe it would be best to not date anyone for awhile.

You said maybe you are called to celibacy. Try it out for a couple of years while you are young. Stay away from girls for now. Get involved with other interests, studying, sports, hobbies and develop a prayer life.

Dating is about seeking a mate and there will be sexual attractions that arise if you develop a romance. What is wrong with not dating anyone and avoiding the complications until you are ready or able to consider marrying?
 
J1234 said:
Matthew 5:27-28 “You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.” 28 But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states:
  1. Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. **Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself **, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes.
How can it be okay to hold a member of the opposites sex’s hand or French Kiss (outside marriage) when done for sexual arousal or if the person knows they will get aroused when doing so. (Still not saying that hand holding is grave matter only if done for sinful reasons).

How can it be okay to hold someones’s hand (outside marriage) for sexual pleasure or to French kiss (outiside marriage), when even just lusting after a women by look (in thought) is sinful?

One form of The Act of Contrition:

O my God, I am heartily sorry for having offended Thee, and I detest all my sins because of Thy just punishments, but most of all because they offend Thee, my God, Who art all-good and deserving of all my love. I firmly resolve, with the help of Thy grace, to sin no more and to avoid the near occasions of sin.

So how can it be right to French Kiss out side of marriage if one of the persons or both know that they will be aroused sexually and entering a near occasion of sin? And for that matter if one knew hand holding would arouse them it would be their responsibility to stay away from that. (Again not saying it’s grave matter to hold hands and for most I assume it is just done out of loving affection, but for those who struggle and are so easily set off I would assume it is a different story when avoiding the near occasion of sin).

Some people are called to live chaste single lives which would mean avoiding near occasions of sin like French kissing.

And how’s is it any of this going to cause me problems in emotional maturity? There are other ways to mature emotionally. Living on one’s own, joining the army, sacrificing one’s time for the needy, etc.
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I know the nature of the forum we’re on, but … a kid who doesn’t experience the normal stuff kids do growing up – and that includes “cuddling”, hand holding, and making out, is going to wind up in an emotional body bag because in moderation that is normal human behavior.

I don’t know how many people are going to read this, but I’d bet the farm that 999 out of a 1,000 “made out” as a kid without turning into some sex monster and are probably laughing at the gravity of some of the responses so far.

lighten up, please, this doesn’t call for the riot act.
 
Wirraway said:
I’ll let you in on a little secret. courting IS sexual in nature. look around you. every emotionally stable man or woman, single or part of a couple, has – and I guarantee this with a high level of certainty – french kissed, held hands, cuddled and even made out** before marriage**. just guessing here – God isn’t going to condemn you for getting a thrill from holding a girl’s hand.

setting out impossibly high standards and odd distinctions of moral conduct at this stage of your life (e.g., holding hands only if the couple is “caring”) is going to cause you far more problems in reaching emotional maturity than holding hands ever will.
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Well agreed. I personally have done almost everything there is to do and I regret a lot of it. I wasn’t that strong in my faith at the time and being in college as I am now it was and still is tough. But now I’m closer to God and I am trying to be a second born virgin in a sense in waiting until marriage. Granted I only had 1 partner in college, it still was devastating and a big negative experience and the relationship ended a few weeks after so I will not go through that again.

In terms of the rest of the “bases” in a relationship. It really depends on each and every person. You have to ask " is what I’m doing out of love or lust?" You can even give a sloppy wet kiss and not sin in my opinion. But if you do it for lust and get sexually aroused and keep kissing to a point. Then yes it’s like driving a car to 100mph and hitting the breaks before a cliff. It’s not wise and your playing with fire. Its also sinful since it is lustful intent.

But yes cuddling, hand holding, and even kissing (even french if not prolonged) isn’t sinful if it’s purely out of emotions. That is just my opinion though but kissing is as far as I will go since I’ve learned from past mistakes its hard to stop once you get too far.
 
Wirraway said:
I know the nature of the forum we’re on, but … a kid who doesn’t experience the normal stuff kids do growing up – and that includes “cuddling”, hand holding, and making out, is going to wind up in an emotional body bag because in moderation that is normal human behavior.

I don’t know how many people are going to read this, but I’d bet the farm that 999 out of a 1,000 “made out” as a kid without turning into some sex monster and are probably laughing at the gravity of some of the responses so far.

lighten up, please, this doesn’t call for the riot act.
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man… i have heard that one wwwaaaayyyyy 2 many times! just because society thinks its acceptable to make out and inappropriately cuddle - doesnt make it morally right!! There are plenty of things society thinks is right i.e. gov supports abortion however - I do not think it is just!
also - feelings and infatuation are not the best way 2 base moral decisions upon. I mean - if you feel the need to rob a bank. It is considered to be morally wrong to act upon this desire and steal. Rather decisions should be controlled or driven by our will and intellect rather than feelings or duty.

besides - honestly what is normal human behaviour?? I mean our society has become extremely confused. We live in a culture which is dictated by the media and technologies. No wonder, most of society can not decipher their own stance and position when they are being told half truths or peer pressured into following a certain way of life.
 
just speaking from experience. holding hands will not lead to a life of ruin. obsessing on reasons why it would, on the other hand …

if you can’t distinguish the ethical nuances between holding hands and robbing a bank, then, perhaps, you shouldn’t do either.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wirraway
I’ll let you in on a little secret. courting IS sexual in nature. look around you. every emotionally stable man or womansingle or part of a couple, has – and I guarantee this with a high level of certainty – french kissed, held hands, cuddled and even made out before marriage. just guessing here – God isn’t going to condemn you for getting a thrill from holding a girl’s hand.(End quote)

setting out impossibly high standards and odd distinctions of moral conduct at this stage of your life (e.g., holding hands only if the couple is “caring”) is going to cause you far more problems in reaching emotional maturity than holding hands ever will.

Matthew 5:27-28 “You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.” 28 But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states:
  1. Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself , isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes.
How can it be okay to hold a member of the opposites sex’s hand or French Kiss (outside marriage) when done for sexual arousal or if the person knows they will get aroused when doing so. (Still not saying that hand holding is grave matter only if done for sinful reasons).

How can it be okay to hold someones’s hand (outside marriage) for sexual pleasure or to French kiss (outiside marriage), when even just lusting after a women by look (in thought) is sinful?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr. Vincent Serpa
Re: Is not avoiding a near occasion of sin a sin?

Hi,

A near occasion of sin isn’t a sin but an occasion where one may be tempted. To put oneself in such a situation is imprudent, but not sinful in itself. However, if one deliberately puts oneself in such a situation in the hope of sinning, one has already sinned by willing to sin. Sin begins with the will to sin.

Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P. (end quote)

One form of The Act of Contrition:

O my God, I am heartily sorry for having offended Thee, and I detest all my sins because of Thy just punishments, but most of all because they offend Thee, my God, Who art all-good and deserving of all my love. I firmly resolve, with the help of Thy grace, to sin no more and to avoid the near occasions of sin.

So how can it be right to French Kiss out side of marriage if one of the persons or both know that they will be aroused sexually and entering a near occasion of sin? And for that matter if one knew hand holding would arouse them it would be their responsibility to stay away from that. (Again not saying it’s grave matter to hold hands and for most I assume it is just done out of loving affection, but for those who struggle and are so easily set off I would assume it is a different story when avoiding the near occasion of sin).

Some people are called to live chaste single lives which would mean avoiding near occasions of sin like French kissing.

And how’s is it any of this going to cause me problems in emotional maturity? There are other ways to mature emotionally. Living on one’s own, joining the army, sacrificing one’s time for the needy, etc.
 
Seek to date only women who will help you advance in the path of holiness. Date women equally committed to chastity and the Catholic faith.

IMHO, If you want a Catholic wife and mother for your children, date a devout Catholic woman.

Converting to marry you is a false conversion, and it’s a bad idea to date someone hoping they will do so.

Only if someone loves the Catholic faith with their whole heart are they truly a Catholic.
 
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