Should I fire my employee?

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LifeIsHard

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I need some guidance. We purchased a business and moved to a new are which, well let me try to put it gently, does not have some of the best moral people. People do a lot of drugs and the education is not so well here (the kids here drink all the time). My husband and I are stuck here for a couple of more years before we can sell this business.

Anyway,

We always make a schedule for the following week on Thursdays and one of our employees often works Fridays. Well, she asked a fellow employee to let her know her schedule once it was made. This other employee told my husband this message and he called and left a message saying she was to work the following day. The next morning I call our busines and there is no answer. I try again 10 minutes later and again no answer. I drove a half hour to get to our store and no one was there - it was locked up. She never came into work. She comes into our store that afternoon stoned and saying she was sorry and that she told the other employee she had to know if she was working the next day within an hour and my husband didn’t call her until that night. Sorry, I am not trying to be confusing, just not trying to give names.

This employee knows there is an excellent chance she will work Friday morning and her excuse was that her and her husband and kids were going fishing. Well, it was her responsibility to call in if she did not hear from my husband in time to find out if she was scheduled - she never did. It is just a poor excuse saying she told the other employee she had to know within an hour when the schedule was not even made yet. Add to it she was completely stoned out on marijuana or whatever it was she was using (and had her kids with her), my husband wants to fire her. Well, actually he wants ME to fire her, but on the other hand, I feel bad because her husband is much older and fishes all day long (and drinks all day long), and she is the one who works to support the kids. She doesn’t come to work stoned like this. I don’t know if I should just talk to her or let her go - but If it comes to it, I would like my husband to let her go since he is the one that wants to get rid of her so badly. I am sure he will push me to do it. What should I do?
 
Talk to your husband. If he is willing to give her a second chance, then talk to her and tell her that her behavior is unacceptable and there will be no third chance. She does deserve to be fired. She should be expecting to be fired. Sometimes the kindest things we can do is to level consequences for actions. You may not be doing her any favor by not firing her. The decision needs to be made by you and your husband based on reason not feelings.
 
=LifeIsHard;5125028]I need some guidance. We purchased a business and moved to a new are which, well let me try to put it gently, does not have some of the best moral people. People do a lot of drugs and the education is not so well here (the kids here drink all the time). My husband and I are stuck here for a couple of more years before we can sell this business.
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Anyway,
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We always make a schedule for the following week on Thursdays and one of our employees often works Fridays. Well, she asked a fellow employee to let her know her schedule once it was made. This other employee told my husband this message and he called and left a message saying she was to work the following day. The next morning I call our busines and there is no answer. I try again 10 minutes later and again no answer. I drove a half hour to get to our store and no one was there - it was locked up. She never came into work. She comes into our store that afternoon stoned and saying she was sorry and that she told the other employee she had to know if she was working the next day within an hour and my husband didn’t call her until that night. Sorry, I am not trying to be confusing, just not trying to give names.
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Your running a business and entitled to set standards that will result in a profit for your investement.
This employee knows there is an excellent chance she will work Friday morning and her excuse was that her and her husband and kids were going fishing. Well, it was her responsibility to call in if she did not hear from my husband in time to find out if she was scheduled - she never did. It is just a poor excuse saying she told the other employee she had to know within an hour when the schedule was not even made yet. Add to it she was completely stoned out on marijuana or whatever it was she was using (and had her kids with her), my husband wants to fire her. Well, actually he wants ME to fire her, but on the other hand, I feel bad because her husband is much older and fishes all day long (and drinks all day long), and she is the one who works to support the kids. She doesn’t come to work stoned like this. I don’t know if I should just talk to her or let her go - but If it comes to it, I would like my husband to let her go since he is the one that wants to get rid of her so badly. I am sure he will push me to do it. What should I do?
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Give a written warning, hold a company wide meeting, explain your standards and then apply them fairly and consistantly. Personal problems are not your primary concern, running your business is.

Give written warnings twice, the second time making it clear that the next time will result in loss of employment. Not doing so, is unfair to her, your other associates and your business.

Your obligation to your employess is to treat them fairly, pay a just wage, offer just benefits relative to your size and abilities. You are obligated to provide a safe, even a frug-free environement, and a clean, stable and safe place for them to work. You are not morally obligated to make excuses for them, to accept less than professional behavior, to modify drug habits and the like.

Love and prayers,
 
Sadly, you cannot control what your employees do when off the job, however, in most states, passing a drug test as a condition of employment.

Next, what are the terms of employment? Many employers make it clear to employee that their employment is “at will” which means that their employer can terminate their employment without needing to cite a reason. This is important because if you cite a reason for terminating employment, you may have to defend that decision in court should the former employee sue for wrongful termination.

Personally, I do not think that a person should be terminated for a single lapse of the type you described, but it is close. A very stern warning reminding her it is up to her, and her alone, to know her work schedule.

As for you, I think putting an employee in a situation where they may not know if they are scheduled to work the next day is probably not the best strategy. Can you prepare the schedule several days earlier, perhaps even a week? I recall in college that a couple of my employers would schedule out two weeks ahead. This had a number of advantages for them employees as they can trade shifts and plan their lives a bit better.
 
rpp said:
Sadly, you cannot control what your employees do when off the job, however, in most states, passing a drug test as a condition of employment.

Next, what are the terms of employment? Many employers make it clear to employee that their employment is “at will” which means that their employer can terminate their employment without needing to cite a reason. This is important because if you cite a reason for terminating employment, you may have to defend that decision in court should the former employee sue for wrongful termination.

Personally, I do not think that a person should be terminated for a single lapse of the type you described, but it is close. A very stern warning reminding her it is up to her, and her alone, to know her work schedule.

As for you, I think putting an employee in a situation where they may not know if they are scheduled to work the next day is probably not the best strategy. Can you prepare the schedule several days earlier, perhaps even a week? I recall in college that a couple of my employers would schedule out two weeks ahead. This had a number of advantages for them employees as they can trade shifts and plan their lives a bit better.
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thank you, but you see my issue was that she knew she likely would be scheduled that morning and thus, even though she wasn’t at work, it was her scheduled work time that she was out getting stoned and not really her “free” or off time. I have heard she uses marijuana but only for some pain she has - not her going on fishing trips with her family and getting totally doped up.

I get what you are saying about making a schedule in advance, but we often times have them wanting this or that day off and they often do not know until the last minute. We tell them (and they know this and are fine with it), that if you need a day off they need to tell us before the day the schedule is made and that as long as no one asked first, they can have it off. If they don’t ask off, then they can be scheduled during whenever they regular hours are. If she didn’t want to work and instead go fishing, she should have said I can’t work Friday instead of call me in an hour (when we’re not even there) or she’s leaving for a trip. She should have called that night to find out what was going on with the schedule. She asked in advance for another day off this week leaving us in a lurch on that day when she knows she’s the only one available to work it, but we stuck to our word and gave it to her off. So, she only gets one day this week to work and she was kind of shocked to hear it. I wanted to say to her when you skip work one day and ask for another off, then why are you surprised you only are getting one day this week?

Thanks for all your (name removed by moderator)ut.
 
I think there is another aspect to this question beside the resposibility owed to employers. There is always the spiritual dimension. If you fire this person you will no longer be a force in her life. You will no longer be able to witness the love of Christ to her through your example. A pebble dropped into a pond starts small, but the ripples become ever wider until they effect a large area of the pond. Consider your present community that pond.
 
rpp said:
Sadly, you cannot control what your employees do when off the job, however, in most states, passing a drug test as a condition of employment.

Next, what are the terms of employment? Many employers make it clear to employee that their employment is “at will” which means that their employer can terminate their employment without needing to cite a reason. This is important because if you cite a reason for terminating employment, you may have to defend that decision in court should the former employee sue for wrongful termination.

Personally, I do not think that a person should be terminated for a single lapse of the type you described, but it is close. A very stern warning reminding her it is up to her, and her alone, to know her work schedule.

As for you, I think putting an employee in a situation where they may not know if they are scheduled to work the next day is probably not the best strategy. Can you prepare the schedule several days earlier, perhaps even a week? I recall in college that a couple of my employers would schedule out two weeks ahead. This had a number of advantages for them employees as they can trade shifts and plan their lives a bit better.
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I have learned a couple things in my years as a small business owner:
  1. Schedules have to be made at least 2 weeks in advance. Employees have lives too, and have things they have to schedule. We schedule 4-6 weeks in advance.
  2. Clear rules regarding expectations have to be discussed, put in writing with a copy signed by the employee on file when hiring any employee, including an “at-will” agreement if it is lawfu in your state.
  3. What your employee does on his or her off hours is none of your business, as long as it does not affect the discharge of their duties.
We had an employee that was very good, then had to leave for a year’s hiatus in Japan with her musician/husband. She was so good at her job that we told her it would be waiting when she came back, and we rehired her. Trouble was, she was moonlighting as a bartender and came in tired and lethargic every day, and it had an effect on her performance. We told her that it wasn’t our business what she did off the job (hey, the same thing could have affected her work at our business if she and her husband were “up late” every night ;)), that her performace was unacceptable. In addition, we mentioned how great a job she had done in the past and wondered aloud why the change.

She didn’t show up for work the next day, leaving a nasty note and her key under the door overnight. 🤷

She also wasn’t as bright as we thought. 6 months later we got a call from a similar business in our area asking for a reference. :rotfl: Nowadays you have to be careful what you say, so I said “Just ask me if I would hire her again”, she did, I said not in a million years, and she didn’t get the job. The other employer was an acquaintance, so I did a favor and told her why I wouldn’t hire her again, otherwise I would have left that part out.

Advice for the OP:
  1. If you fire her, document everything.
  2. If you don’t fire her, document everything and make it clear, in writing, that not showing up when scheduled means immediate termination.
  3. Make up a schedule 3-4 weeks in advance. From the OP, I’m not clear whether or not the employee was clear on whether or not she was expected to be at work that particular day. If you terminate her and didn’t have a written schedule and yours is not an at-will state, you could be on the hook for unlawful termination.
  4. Always have a backup plan in case an employee doesn’t show up for work. Cars don’t always start, families have emergencies, and we business owners cannot expect work to be an employee’s first priority.
 
Newbie2 said:
I have learned a couple things in my years as a small business owner:
  1. Schedules have to be made at least 2 weeks in advance. Employees have lives too, and have things they have to schedule. We schedule 4-6 weeks in advance.
  2. Clear rules regarding expectations have to be discussed, put in writing with a copy signed by the employee on file when hiring any employee, including an “at-will” agreement if it is lawfu in your state.
  3. What your employee does on his or her off hours is none of your business, as long as it does not affect the discharge of their duties.
We had an employee that was very good, then had to leave for a year’s hiatus in Japan with her musician/husband. She was so good at her job that we told her it would be waiting when she came back, and we rehired her. Trouble was, she was moonlighting as a bartender and came in tired and lethargic every day, and it had an effect on her performance. We told her that it wasn’t our business what she did off the job (hey, the same thing could have affected her work at our business if she and her husband were “up late” every night ;)), that her performace was unacceptable. In addition, we mentioned how great a job she had done in the past and wondered aloud why the change.

She didn’t show up for work the next day, leaving a nasty note and her key under the door overnight. 🤷

She also wasn’t as bright as we thought. 6 months later we got a call from a similar business in our area asking for a reference. :rotfl: Nowadays you have to be careful what you say, so I said “Just ask me if I would hire her again”, she did, I said not in a million years, and she didn’t get the job. The other employer was an acquaintance, so I did a favor and told her why I wouldn’t hire her again, otherwise I would have left that part out.

Advice for the OP:
  1. If you fire her, document everything.
  2. If you don’t fire her, document everything and make it clear, in writing, that not showing up when scheduled means immediate termination.
  3. Make up a schedule 3-4 weeks in advance. From the OP, I’m not clear whether or not the employee was clear on whether or not she was expected to be at work that particular day. If you terminate her and didn’t have a written schedule and yours is not an at-will state, you could be on the hook for unlawful termination.
  4. Always have a backup plan in case an employee doesn’t show up for work. Cars don’t always start, families have emergencies, and we business owners cannot expect work to be an employee’s first priority.
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God information here for al small business owners. 👍

Completely in line with both the laws in most (if not all) states as well as my best understanding of Catholic teachings regarding the responsbilities of employers.

Thank you, Newbie2. 🙂
 
I don’t think it is reasonable to post a schedule the day before someone is to work – even if they “always” work that day.

Get the schedules out at least two weeks in advance and feel confident firing anyone who bails without cause.
 
***This is why companies drug test applicants before hiring.

I’d probably give a second chance, with a written warning…next time, the person would be fired. I would make an announcement that you will be starting to randomly drug test too, and if someone is ‘stoned’ then that will be grounds for termination. I would not want anyone working for me who was using drugs. That is an employer’s right to request a drug free environment for saftey reasons alone.

Everyone has problems–and I think it would be appropriate and charitable to give another chance. But, not endless chances. She can’t come to work high, and not show up on days she is scheduled. You can’t run a business this way.

I hope it works out…my prayers for you and your husband on this one!***
 
Well, in my casual workplaces the schedule was usually worked out at least a few days beforehand (ie Thursday or so for the week starting Monday, with it being the employees’ responsibility to call in on that day, if we weren’t at work anyway, to find out what the schedule was).

That arrangement gave a sufficient amount of flexibility to the employee and at the same time no-one had the excuse of not knowing what their schedule was.

If this is her first lapse of the kind, I’d be inclined to give her another chance - but make it abundantly clear that it is HER responsibility to find out her shifts in a timely way, to assume she’s working on Fridays unless she hears otherwise, and then show up.
 
kage_ar said:
Why would you run a business and NOT drug test?
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Not many businesses do. It’s expensive and potentially problematic from a legal standpoint. Plus, is it really necessary to test people that work at an office supply store? A flower shop? There’s a point as well, where you have to show some trust and support to your employees, otherwise you’ll have massive turnover, which is deadly to small business.
 
It doesn’t sound fair to fire an employee based on a phone message the night before.

It does sound fair to fire an employee for being on drugs.

But…you don’t know what God will say till you ask Him.
 
Newbie2 said:
Not many businesses do. It’s expensive and potentially problematic from a legal standpoint. Plus, is it really necessary to test people that work at an office supply store? A flower shop? There’s a point as well, where you have to show some trust and support to your employees, otherwise you’ll have massive turnover, which is deadly to small business.
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In the past 15 years, I have never heard of a business that does NOT drug test employees. Pre-hire screening and the right to randomly test at any time is the norm. If people are willing to break the law by taking drugs, I would be doubful they can be honest stewards of my business.
 
cheeto1 said:
It does sound fair to fire an employee for being on drugs.
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i think a revelant point is what type of business is this. if the job invovled food preperation, driving, security or any number of tasks, i would think that firing for one time coming in high would be legit, if not compulseory.

the job weighs in on it. a cop or trucker endagers people if they get stoned before/at work, a comic book salesman doesnt. i really think that should be a factor in the decesion, but my own 2cents you work for me you come in on time clean and sober. late i could handle, drugs and youre gone.
 
kage_ar said:
Why would you run a business and NOT drug test?
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Because it’s wrong.

Because there is an extremely high rate of false positives.

Because drug testing can force prospective employees to reveal what prescribed medications they are taking (and therefore what conditions they have) in case they show up in the test – information it is illegal for the employer to ask for directly.
In my own case, I’m on meds for epilepsy & I have no idea how that would show up in a drug test.

Unless I were out of work and had no choice in order to feed my family I would not submit to a drug test to get a job. But if an employer wants to start off our relationship by making me prove I’m not a junkie, I’m going to assume he’s a complete schmuck until he proves otherwise.
 
I used to own and run a small buiness, and I think it is really unreasonable to schedule someone the day before and get upset when they don’t show up after a phone call the night before.

The drug thing is another problem. It is illegal except for some states for “medicimal purposes”. IF it is not done on company time it may be up to employee, but if your company policy (in writing) is that no drug use is tolerated even off duty, then it may be grounds for firing.

I think the decent thingto do is to give the employee a warning and lay down the policy AND a schedule where folks know at least a week in advance what their schedule is for the coming week. Next day is really ridiculous, and the night before is just asking for trouble. I place the blame more on you than on the employee for not showing up. Drugs or no drugs, it’s insane to ask employees to call the day before or night before to find out if they need to be at work.
 
Is it possible to make a schedule that never changes? For example, Bob works M-F 9-5 every week.
 
The hotel I used to work for had a zero tolerance for drugs policy. You had to be tested if an offer of employment was made, and after employment, if you were injured on the job, you had to be tested. Many areas of the hotel involved duties that could be hazardous if “stoned”, such as driving the hotel van, and working with sharp knives and boiling liquids in the kitchen.

I only recall two instances where employees were fired, for coming into work drunk and displaying disruptive behavior. Both had received warnings in the past, second and third chances, and encouragement to seek treatment. Finally management just had enough.
 
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