Should I insist on a conditional baptism?

[Cameron89]

I am just beginning RCIA, but I don’t how I should be received into the Catholic Church. To make a very long story short, when I was younger I was deeply interested in Catholicism. I asked my dad (who is not religious) to baptize me. I thought he did it incorrectly the first time so I had him do it over again using a conditional formula. Flowing water and the Trinitarian formula were used. I realize this was very wrong, and have since repented of my actions.

Recently, I met with the pastor of my local parish, and he said that this ‘baptism’ was invalid because of a defect of intention. He says that my dad was trying to please me rather than ‘do what the Church does.’ This could very well be true, but I still have reservations. My pastor wants me to be baptized absolutely; I always thought that I would be baptized conditionally, confess and receive conditional absolution. Moreover I thought some sort of investigation would take place.

What I am terrified of is this: if the ‘baptism’ my dad performed was actually valid, and I do things the pastor’s way, then at the Easter Vigil I would be receiving baptism all over again, as well as receiving Holy Communion and Confirmation with unconfessed mortal sins on my soul. How should I handle this situation—should I insist on conditional baptism? I must say I’m reticent to approach my pastor again on the matter because he strongly urged me to forget about these concerns. Apologize for any confusion. This is a real mess. God bless you.

 

[puzzleannie]

you should ease your worries and follow what the priest directs as he is the one who has been given authority from Christ, through with and in the Church, to look at your situation and determine what your needs are in this regard. Even if for some reason it transpired that you had previously been validly baptized, maybe even as a child without your knowledge, and the priest baptized you again, there would be no sin and no guilt on anyone’s part and the baptism would have the effect of remitting all actual sin you may have. Remember it is Christ who acts through the sacraments which are his gifts to us. It is Christ who has full knowledge of your soul and Christ whom you will encounter in these sacraments. So there is no fear.

Welcome home.

 

[jmcrae]

I am just beginning RCIA, but I don’t how I should be received into the Catholic Church. To make a very long story short, when I was younger I was deeply interested in Catholicism. I asked my dad (who is not religious) to baptize me. I thought he did it incorrectly the first time so I had him do it over again using a conditional formula. Flowing water and the Trinitarian formula were used. I realize this was very wrong, and have since repented of my actions.

Recently, I met with the pastor of my local parish, and he said that this ‘baptism’ was invalid because of a defect of intention. He says that my dad was trying to please me rather than ‘do what the Church does.’ This could very well be true, but I still have reservations. My pastor wants me to be baptized absolutely; I always thought that I would be baptized conditionally, confess and receive conditional absolution. Moreover I thought some sort of investigation would take place.

What I am terrified of is this: if the ‘baptism’ my dad performed was actually valid, and I do things the pastor’s way, then at the Easter Vigil I would be receiving baptism all over again, as well as receiving Holy Communion and Confirmation with unconfessed mortal sins on my soul. How should I handle this situation—should I insist on conditional baptism? I must say I’m reticent to approach my pastor again on the matter because he strongly urged me to forget about these concerns. Apologize for any confusion. This is a real mess. God bless you.

One of the hardest lessons to learn in RCIA is to trust your pastor.

Unless you feel that you may have left something out when describing your attempted baptism, leave it be, and trust his judgement. (If you left anything out that might be crucial to his decision, mention it to him.)

Before you panic, just realize that God cannot condemn you for doing what your pastor tells you to do - even if later on, it turns out that he was wrong. It is God who gives us our priests, and it is God who will make up for any defect in their instructions to us - you cannot go wrong by being obedient to them in the matters over which they have authority, especially the Sacraments. Be at peace.

 

[excubitor]

I went through exactly the same thing.
A great deal of soul searching and grief over this very thing.
Because if my baptism was not valid it meant that for the last 25 years I have not been a regenerate Christian and neither are any of my friends and family regenerate Christians.

I suggest that you read this article about the validity of Mormon baptisms.
ewtn.com/library/theology/mormbap1.htm

I think that since this ruling was made there are far less conditional baptisms. Because most baptisms performed by protestant sects, cults and denominations are severely defective, usually because they believe that baptism is merely a symbolic, social external sign of obedience like a kind of rite of passage, instead of being a real and true death of the old man and rebirth to a new life of salvation and membership of the church which it is supposed to be. So in fact the entire nature of baptism has been changed by these protestant denominations. Personally I don’t think that even the mainline protestant churches take baptism seriously any more. Its a real mess out there in protestant land.

So where to from here? The way it was explained to me by the priest is that the facility of conditional baptism is for the sake of the church AND of the person being baptised, so that if after having all these things explained you still have doubts and believe that your original baptism might be valid then you should REQUEST a conditional baptism. If necessary then REQUEST that this be referred to the bishop so that you are confident that your concerns are being addressed seriously. Notice in big capitals the word REQUEST rather than the word you used INSIST.

To me this is an essential point that we become submissive to the teachings and rulings of the Holy Mother Church. In my case the church was certain that my baptism was invalid but were prepared to conditionally baptise so that I should not be excessively troubled or my faith weakened. In the end though I submitted to the will of the church as being of greater authority than my opinions. I also was fully reconciled to the concepts explained in the article above and so I was prepared to make a more objective evaluation of my original baptism than I previously had been making because of the emotion of it all.

To be docile and accepting of the churches priests and leaders is truly the hardest thing for a protestant to do. We are taught as protestants not to trust our leaders more than we trust our own judgment and so we often go around making demands (or at least I used to). If we don’t like the way things are handled we storm off in a huff and go somewhere else.

As a Catholic this is no longer an option because there is nowhere else to go.
John 6:68 67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

Therefore, remaining docile to the church is critical to our salvation. On a side note but still a factor, is that if you make a conditional baptism it is more complex and you will need to make a confession of all your sins since the conditional baptism took place. In the end being baptised as a Catholic marked a clean break and fresh start in my Christian walk as a Catholic. All the best and my prayers are with you.

 

[excubitor]

What I am terrified of is this: if the ‘baptism’ my dad performed was actually valid, and I do things the pastor’s way, then at the Easter Vigil I would be receiving baptism all over again, as well as receiving Holy Communion and Confirmation with unconfessed mortal sins on my soul.

I’m not saying you are wrong here but it just sounds a little bit dramatic. Where did you get this idea? Is there a link you can show me? I am interested in following through this point just as a point of doctrine.
Mind you, I admire your faith in the holiness and sanctity of the Sacraments. I feel that many cradle Catholics are overly casual with regards to the sacraments. “Working out salvation with fear and trembling” is fair enough but there is also a kind of terror which is paralyzing and causes us to run and hide in some comfortable dark corner, shrinking from the light. Job tried this. He ran as far as he could and got swallowed by the whale and then got spat out right on the shore of Ninevah. So there is no escape from God. In the end we all must face our fears make a judgment and move forward with boldness.

*Hebrews 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession (confession - DR). 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
*

As someone else most correctly said, God will back up his priests in this decision. He understands our infirmities, THEREFORE we can boldly approach his throne of judgement and obtain mercy and grace. This is especially true in this hardest of times which is the birth of a new man; a child of God brought forth by the travail of the church.

As Paul said "Galatians 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you, ".

So try to make this as easy a birth as possible for your pastors and for yourself.

 

[Bookcat]

Even a Pastor can make a mistake in judgment…

I would pursue this further…and you may be right to seek a conditional baptism if prudent doubt still remains…and then make that confession…prior of course to Easter Vigil.

The baptism your Father did for you may have been valid…for if he did intend to baptize you …because you wanted to be a Christian…that can fall into “doing what the Church does”…even atheists can baptize…or those of other religions…

even if he did it to please you…so long as he really intended to baptize…to do this rite to make a Christian…

and of course if he used the right form…

So yes I would pursue this further…for if it was valid…

…a confession ought to be made…prior to full reception.

(you have good theological sense here…and your not even in full communion yet…)

Of course approach this with great respect etc…but it is important…so pursue…

 

[jmcrae]

Even a Pastor can make a mistake in judgment.

This is true, but at the same time, God will not impute the pastor’s error to you - and God understands that we have to obey our pastors (since it is He who commands us to do so) - so, if any error is made, not only will you not be guilty of it, but God will supply the necessary grace to complete the intention as it was begun.

 

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[FrCorey]

I am just beginning RCIA, but I don’t how I should be received into the Catholic Church. To make a very long story short, when I was younger I was deeply interested in Catholicism. I asked my dad (who is not religious) to baptize me. I thought he did it incorrectly the first time so I had him do it over again using a conditional formula. Flowing water and the Trinitarian formula were used. I realize this was very wrong, and have since repented of my actions.

Recently, I met with the pastor of my local parish, and he said that this ‘baptism’ was invalid because of a defect of intention. He says that my dad was trying to please me rather than ‘do what the Church does.’ This could very well be true, but I still have reservations. My pastor wants me to be baptized absolutely; I always thought that I would be baptized conditionally, confess and receive conditional absolution. Moreover I thought some sort of investigation would take place.

What I am terrified of is this: if the ‘baptism’ my dad performed was actually valid, and I do things the pastor’s way, then at the Easter Vigil I would be receiving baptism all over again, as well as receiving Holy Communion and Confirmation with unconfessed mortal sins on my soul. How should I handle this situation—should I insist on conditional baptism? I must say I’m reticent to approach my pastor again on the matter because he strongly urged me to forget about these concerns. Apologize for any confusion. This is a real mess. God bless you.

no.
Jesus will not hold you too it if you are not happy in your heart with it.
If you want to walk away, he will cry, but not keep you from leaving.

 

[MikeDunphy]

Even if for some reason it transpired that you had previously been validly baptized, … and the priest baptized you again, there would be no sin and no guilt on anyone’s part and the baptism would have the effect of remitting all actual sin you may have.

A person already baptized once cannot be baptized again (CCC #1246). An attempted second baptism could not be counted on to do anything to remit sin.

Furthermore, it was the teaching of Saint Thomas Aquinas that Confirmation should not be given to those not in a state of grace. (See also CCC #1310).

Since “anyone, even a non-baptized person, with the required intention, can baptize” (CCC #1256) it seems possible that Cameron’s father did baptize him. I would respectfully request a conditional baptism.

 

[Cameron89]

Thanks so much to everyone who responded! It’s been a great help and comfort.
As far as being “terrified,” I only mean that I don’t want to run the possible risk offending Jesus by receiving Him or any of the other sacraments unworthily/sacrilegiously (especially upon entering the Church).
I’ve been thinking along the same lines as MikeDunphy; but I certainly agree with what many members said: I should have more faith in my pastor’s judgment (and more obedience). I’m thinking I’ll respectfully ask about the possibility of a conditional baptism, or at least for some further investigation into the validity of what happened (without making a whole lot of fuss).

 

[puzzleannie]

when you understand more fully the doctrine that the priest stands “in persona Christi”, that is, he acts as Christ himself in conferring the sacraments, you will lose that fear of offending Christ by allowing the priest to carry out the role he has been given by Christ, through the bishops, which is to determine who shall be baptized and how they shall receive their Christian Initiation. If he is acting as Christ in good faith to the best of his ability he cannot possibly at the same time offend Christ in any way.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

As far as being “terrified,” I only mean that I don’t want to run the possible risk offending Jesus by receiving Him or any of the other sacraments unworthily/sacrilegiously (especially upon entering the Church).

There should be a trust in Jesus that He isn’t a legalist. We should remember that Jesus isn’t sitting there with a rule book looking for ways to “get” us. Jesus sees your heart and knows that you’re seeking union with Him and His Church.
To ease your conscience you can make a good confession after baptism, but please don’t worry too much about offending Jesus when you’re trying to get closer to Him.

I should have more faith in my pastor’s judgment (and more obedience). I’m thinking I’ll respectfully ask about the possibility of a conditional baptism, or at least for some further investigation into the validity of what happened (without making a whole lot of fuss).

You’re certainly free to request a conditional baptism but to some degree I share your pastor’s views on the original attempted baptism.

 

[Bookcat]

I’m thinking I’ll respectfully ask about the possibility of a conditional baptism, or at least for some further investigation into the validity of what happened (without making a whole lot of fuss).

yes not a “whole lot of fuss”…but you are right in that this is very important…

I think you are very right in your concern. If it were me …I would pursue it greatly and persistantly…(others have insisted on conditional baptisms…)…and with great charity too…

(and by the way one could always call the chancery office as well…for such is their responsibility too…I would try the Pastor first though…or have call first…)

Pastors can make mistakes…they are very busy with lots of sheep…and sometimes they can overlook something etc …or think they heard something else…

But yes…an absolute baptism as you call it…should not be done if there may have really been a baptism …and of course you are right too about the confession…

again Pastors can make an error in judgment…yes we need to proceed with charity and respect…but we also have rights in the matter…and the matter is of great importance…

And you really do not want to have this question in your mind at Easter!!! Tell him that …it may help. You need to know peace and joy then

 

[Bookcat]

There should be a trust in Jesus that He isn’t a legalist. We should remember that Jesus isn’t sitting there with a rule book looking for ways to “get” us. Jesus sees your heart and knows that you’re seeking union with Him and His Church.
To ease your conscience you can make a good confession after baptism, but please don’t worry too much about offending Jesus when you’re trying to get closer to Him.

.

It is not about a legal question so much…it is about the Sacraments! Yes God can give us grace outside of them…but really such is the great gift we are to seek! and he needs that joy and peace on Easter as well…not doubt…

He would be recieving communion and confirmation right after “Baptism”…so no time for the confession that is suggested (and I would not go that route…I mention this on the practical and spiritual level)

So I think he should seek after the conditional Baptism and confession…unless “certainty” can be had that he was never baptized…which I do not think will be found…

 

[Bookcat]

This is true, but at the same time, God will not impute the pastor’s error to you - and God understands that we have to obey our pastors (since it is He who commands us to do so) - so, if any error is made, not only will you not be guilty of it, but God will supply the necessary grace to complete the intention as it was begun.

He knows however…that these seems to be an error here…and he knows in his conscience that more needs be done now…so while God may not impute error in the case of someone who does not know…I think this is a different situation…I think he needs to pursue it further…and it is about the reality of the sacraments and the life that one has in them…and the joy of Easter too

 

[Bookcat]

A person already baptized once cannot be baptized again (CCC #1246). An attempted second baptism could not be counted on to do anything to remit sin.

Furthermore, it was the teaching of Saint Thomas Aquinas that Confirmation should not be given to those not in a state of grace. (See also CCC #1310).

Since “anyone, even a non-baptized person, with the required intention, can baptize” (CCC #1256) it seems possible that Cameron’s father did baptize him. I would respectfully request a conditional baptism.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

I think that you should trust your priest. In the first place your father should not have baptised you. True, lay persons, even atheists, can baptise. However, they are not to do so in the ordinary course of things. They may baptise if there is a danger of death and an ordinary minister cannot be had in time.

I would humbly accept the advice of your priest. From what you have said it appears that your father baptised you in order to appease you rather than to do what the Church intends. From the information you have provided it sounds as if there are enough serious doubts about it validity to deem it invalid. You even questioned its validity sufficiently to ask him to baptise you again in the conidtional form. Again, it seems likely that he did this to appease you rather than to do what the Church intends.

As you have already been advised, your priest acts in persona Christi. If you are really concerned about this matter I would advise you to raise it with him again. If you “go over his head” to the diocese I fear that your relationship with him may be damaged.

I trust all this gets resolved for you. I shall keep you in my prayers.

 

[Bookcat]

I am just beginning RCIA, but I don’t how I should be received into the Catholic Church. To make a very long story short, when I was younger I was deeply interested in Catholicism. I asked my dad (who is not religious) to baptize me. I thought he did it incorrectly the first time so I had him do it over again using a conditional formula. Flowing water and the Trinitarian formula were used. I realize this was very wrong, and have since repented of my actions.

Recently, I met with the pastor of my local parish, and he said that this ‘baptism’ was invalid because of a defect of intention. He says that my dad was trying to please me rather than ‘do what the Church does.’ This could very well be true, but I still have reservations. My pastor wants me to be baptized absolutely; I always thought that I would be baptized conditionally, confess and receive conditional absolution. Moreover I thought some sort of investigation would take place.

What I am terrified of is this: if the ‘baptism’ my dad performed was actually valid, and I do things the pastor’s way, then at the Easter Vigil I would be receiving baptism all over again, as well as receiving Holy Communion and Confirmation with unconfessed mortal sins on my soul. How should I handle this situation—should I insist on conditional baptism? I must say I’m reticent to approach my pastor again on the matter because he strongly urged me to forget about these concerns. Apologize for any confusion. This is a real mess. God bless you.

Of course if your Father was “pretending” to baptize you…that is one thing…but if it was the case that his son asked him to baptize him…and told him how to do it…and well he intended to do what his son wanted…well…that would be like me being alone on an island with an Muslim…and reading the New Testament …and asking the Muslim…to baptize me so I can b a Christian…well… he does not believe but he does what I ask intending well to do what i ask…to baptize…that is still a valid baptism. By intending to baptize me he was intending to do what the Church does.

So yes…I would seek a conditional baptism…and then confession as you say…

 

[Matthew_Holford]

Of course if your Father was “pretending” to baptize you…that is one thing…but if it was the case that his son asked him to baptize him…and told him how to do it…and well he intended to do what his son wanted…well…that would be like me being alone on an island with an Muslim…and reading the New Testament …and asking the Muslim…to baptize me so I can b a Christian…well… he does not believe but he does what I ask intending well to do what i ask…to baptize…that is still a valid baptism. By intending to baptize me he was intending to do what the Church does.

So yes…I would seek a conditional baptism…and then confession as you say…

I would follow your priest’s advice. He is the one appointed by the Church to make the decision. Surely, you don’t want to start a trend of questioning everything your priest says. If he says your baptism is valid I would accept that. It does not sound to me as if at the time you asked your father to “baptise” you that you were in a situation where it would have been impossible to go to a minister and be baptised. It sounds to me that at the time both you and your father must have had a very defective understanding of baptism. This would affect your father’s intent. I don’t believe you have had a valid baptism. However, it doesn’t matter what I think or anybody else on this forum. At best we can only give you our well intentioned opinions. This situation is best resolved by talking it through again with your priest. I’m sure he won’t mind going through it again if you explain that you’re not sure that you understand.