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wanner47
Guest
People, please READ THE THREAD before responding. The OP was not raised or married in the Catholic Church, nor was her daughter baptized Catholic.
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mrpathetic
Guest
Let me lay it to you straight: Do you want your children to go to heaven? More to the point, do you want to go to heaven?
If so, then raise your children Catholic. If your husband does not want to raise your children as Catholic, then take your children, and leave him behind. You shouldn’t have married a heretic in the first place.
Read this article:
olrl.org/doctrine/eens2.shtml
If you let them be raised as non-Catholic, then be prepared to see them condemned.
You have an obligation to raise your children in the Catholic faith. This is true even if your spouse turns out to be a non-believer. Why? Because if you don’t, you children may end up as non-believers as well. And we know what will happen to them, on the Last Day… and if you are negligent, in your duties as a Catholic parent, you can be judged the same way.
I have done my best, to raise my children as Catholic. This was not easy, when my wife abandoned the Catholic faith (she now claims she is agnostic.) My daughter ended up as an evangelical; at least there is some hope for her, and that she may return to the Catholic faith. My son is Catholic (although very rebellious - he’s going through that hard-headed phase of the middle teenage years.)
You need to take charge of the situation. Be a real Catholic mom. Raise your children as Catholic. If necessary, leave that bum of a husband of yours behind. (Worship Jesus only at home… give me a break…
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wanner47
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Mrpathetic, THE OP IS A CONVERT. She did not “marry a heretic.” I think you are being cruel.
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Jenny_Z
Guest
The username seems quite fitting.
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mrpathetic
Guest
I am trying to lay it straight to this person. And if my language was less than sensitive - I am sorry. I realize this person is going through tough times, and my tone may have come across as unsympathetic, or insensitive. Again, I am sorry.
But this person is facing tough choices. The Catholic faith is not easy. If you want to be part of this faith, then you are entering a tough faith. One of my favorite sayings about this faith is “Living Catholic is hard; dying Catholic is easy.” I haven’t died yet (obviously), so I don’t know if the second half of this saying is true - but the first half certainly is.
And like any faith, the Catholic faith has rules. These rules have to be obeyed. I hope that the OP understood this, when she converted.
One of the primary rules of this faith, is that you raise your children in this faith. It is through this rule that this Church has sustained itself for 2,000 years. (Similarly, the Jewish faith, and other great religions of the world, have the same rules.)
Canon 2225 of the Catechism makes this point very clear:
Through the grace of the sacrament of marriage, parents receive the responsibility and privilege of evangelizing their children. Parents should initiate their children at an early age into the mysteries of the faith of which they are the “first heralds” for their children. They should associate them from their tenderest years with the life of the Church. A wholesome family life can foster interior dispositions that are a genuine preparation for a living faith and remain a support for it throughout one’s life.
Why are the rules of this Church so tough? Why are the rules so strict? Because Our Lord made it that way. Read Mark 8 tonight, if you have any doubts:
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He summoned the crowd with his disciples and said to them, "Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me.
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For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake and that of the gospel will save it. *
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wanner47
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mrpathetic, you accused her of marrying a heretic, which is patently false as the OP wasn’t Catholic when she married. I think you owe her an apology for that remark.
As for the rest of your post, take a step back and ask yourself if you are speaking the truth in love. I don’t think anyone here thinks the OP should not raise her daughter in the CC, but she is trying to juggle her spiritual obligations with saving her marriage. It’s not an easy thing to do, and I don’t think acrimonious and judgemental posts will give her the courage and endurance she’ll need to navigate this difficult situation.
As for the rest of your post, take a step back and ask yourself if you are speaking the truth in love. I don’t think anyone here thinks the OP should not raise her daughter in the CC, but she is trying to juggle her spiritual obligations with saving her marriage. It’s not an easy thing to do, and I don’t think acrimonious and judgemental posts will give her the courage and endurance she’ll need to navigate this difficult situation.
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mrpathetic
Guest
If my previous posts were lacking in Christian charity, I am sorry, and I humbly apologize.
I actually sympathize more with the OP than you realize.
I too live with a spouse who is outside the Catholic faith. And I too am struggling to save my marriage. I have had to make numerous compromises, in order to live in this situation. I have turned over control of my family and household to my wife, and she essentially makes all the decisions for the family. My wife effectively calls all the shots in our family, except really in one area - matters of faith. (This is due, in large part, to the fact that she has abandoned the Faith.)
The one thing that I simply will not relinquish control of, is the spiritual upbringing of my children. I will not let my wife raise them as heretics, pure and simple. On that point, I simply will not compromise. Nor should the OP.
I will raise my children to believe what I believe, and practice the faith that I practice. My daughter is an adult, and she is free to do as she wishes. But my son is a minor, and so long as he lives in my home, he will worship as I worship - bottom line. **I will not take gambles with my children’s souls. Nor should the OP. **
I can think of few circumstances that would cause me to show my wife the door. But if she were to try to turn my son away from the Catholic faith - that just might be it. I wouldn’t divorce or re-marry - but I would take my son and leave. And I wouldn’t look back.
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Look, I have lived in this circumstance for many, many years. I know the OP has only faced this for about a year. I can say from experience that the journey isn’t going to get any easier. The struggle for your children’s souls will not get any easier or simpler , OP, so be ready for the fight of a lifetime.
So ultimately, she may need to make a choice - her faith in Christ, and His Universal Church, or her husband. I can’t make this call for her - but I have made mine. I put my faith in Christ, and his Church, above all else. And that is what guides my decisions. And this includes how I evangelize my children.
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masondoggy
Guest
I think this is one of those situations where all of us here need to back off on giving advice until the OP speaks to a good, holy priest about this. This is a very difficult situation with A LOT at stake here.
To the OP, all I can say is to pray, pray, PRAY, and see a good priest immediately. I will include you and your family in my prayers also.
To the OP, all I can say is to pray, pray, PRAY, and see a good priest immediately. I will include you and your family in my prayers also.
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Curious
Guest
obviously, you people have given me a lot to think about. I really really like what I know about my parish priest. All two of my confessions have been with him and I’ve found him to be a good confessor. Not only am I sort of new to the faith, but I’m sort of new to this parish as well and don’t know him or many other people there as well as I’d like. To tell you the truth, I’m a little shy about “bothering” him, though i know in my head that I’m being ridiculous, that this is very important.
I’ll speak to him soon.
Curious
I’ll speak to him soon.
Curious
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mrpathetic
Guest
Absolutely. This is a case that cries out for pastoral care. The pastor at your parish should be willing to devote time to your issues, and those of your children and family. That is the primary repsonsibility of a pastor. He isn’t just there for the liturgical and administrative responsibilities; he is there to be “The Doctor of the Soul”, to assist the members of his congregation, through these types of spiritual crises. So don’t be afraid to go to him, and ask for his spiritual counsel.
And new converts should especially be willing to take advantage of this. In my opinion, they should be the first priority of the pastor. Since they have spent the least time in the Church, they are the ones that will need the most guidance, as they move to a deeper relationship with Jesus.
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Curious
Guest
To tell you the truth, I really feel like skipping the whole talk to the priest thing and just raise her Catholic. What’s he going to do, stop me? He can’t. I realize you can never assume on someone else’s faith journey, but I’d love for him to be passionate about his Christianity…even his Protestant Christianity. If he’s just going to hang out at the house and watch TV (which is all I’ve seen so far) then I’m just going to do it. I’m not having her hang out with him and learn nothing about the faith.
Curious
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wanner47
Guest
Perhaps that’s what you should tell him – in charity and love. “Honey, I feel DD needs spiritual upbringing, and I would like that upbringing to be in the Catholic Church, since I feel it has the Fullness of our Christian faith. I love and respect you as my husband, but I need to do what I feel is in DD’s bests interests spiritually. I would appreciate your consent to get her baptized in the CC, and I would love for you to learn more about my faith. Would you read this” (Catholicism for Dummies or something similar) “and/or come with me to discuss things with Father _____?”
Praying for you, Curious.
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Curious
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LOL…that’s WAAAYYYYYY nice than what I might have said, but yeah…something like that. I really appreciate the prayers too.
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mrpathetic
Guest
I think you are developing the correct attitude. You are focusing on the future of your family, and the faith life of your children. That is the correct orientation.
Now, how do you address this with you husband? If he is a non-entity in the household, and has given over control of the family to you, then that could actually be helpful. If he has delegated the responsibility of faith formation to you, then you can raise your children as Catholic, without opposition.
Unfortunately, if he begins to resist you, this could be a source of real friction. I hope he is not the violent, abusive type. If so, you need to do anything, to protect you and your children, in every sense of the word. But do anything that would intentionally implode your marriage. As a Catholic, you are required to respect your marriage vows, until death.
You have to be willing to fight for your marriage, you children, and your faith, at the same time. This is essentially the battle that my mother had to fight. She was Catholic, and my father was not. She insisted that I and my sister were to be raised in the Catholic faith. We were, and now my children are as well.
Raising me and my sister put my mother into an early grave. She eventually had to raise 2 children on her own, and the stress led to several ilnesses, that took about 20 years off her life.
I hope that your future is not going to be as difficult. But please, do not be under any illusions. The path of a true disciple is never easy, and the price of faith can be high.
You will be in my prayers, Curious.
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Galnextdoor
Guest
Hi,
I don’t know much about your husband’s background or your’s for that matter, but there is a solid Catholic writer/psychologist name Gregory Popcak who writes books for Catholic relationships. You might try reading The Exceptional Seven Percent: The Nine Secrets of the World’s Happiest Couples. He gives very sound advice.
Another thing you might try is buying a book that has a title that might catch your husbands eye and lead him into further exploration of the Catholic Church. Depending on the amount of money you have, you could buy the DVD presentation or CD presentation of Created and Redeemed. It’s an 8 part series presentation on Genesis, but it’s not your typical Adam and Eve discussion. It explores the creation purpose, original sin and the Theology of the Body. Since he has a broken leg and is watching tv, it could be an option.
Holy Sex! by Gregory Popcak has an intriguing title that might catch your husband’s eye and make him think twice about Genesis as well. Christopher West also has a book called The Good News About Sex and Marriage for Catholics. I don’t know if he would pick up any of these books to read, but I think they might draw him into an eventual exploration of the Catholic Church. You might buy them and put them close to where he likes to lounge with his broken leg. After all, a person can only watch so much tv.
God Bless
I’ll keep you in my prayers.
I don’t know much about your husband’s background or your’s for that matter, but there is a solid Catholic writer/psychologist name Gregory Popcak who writes books for Catholic relationships. You might try reading The Exceptional Seven Percent: The Nine Secrets of the World’s Happiest Couples. He gives very sound advice.
Another thing you might try is buying a book that has a title that might catch your husbands eye and lead him into further exploration of the Catholic Church. Depending on the amount of money you have, you could buy the DVD presentation or CD presentation of Created and Redeemed. It’s an 8 part series presentation on Genesis, but it’s not your typical Adam and Eve discussion. It explores the creation purpose, original sin and the Theology of the Body. Since he has a broken leg and is watching tv, it could be an option.
Holy Sex! by Gregory Popcak has an intriguing title that might catch your husband’s eye and make him think twice about Genesis as well. Christopher West also has a book called The Good News About Sex and Marriage for Catholics. I don’t know if he would pick up any of these books to read, but I think they might draw him into an eventual exploration of the Catholic Church. You might buy them and put them close to where he likes to lounge with his broken leg. After all, a person can only watch so much tv.
God Bless
I’ll keep you in my prayers.
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lucy2004
Guest
Curious,
I have stumbled upon this thread because I am in a similar situation and understand completely. I was raised Catholic and left the faith for a few years. During that time, I met my husband and we married in a non-denominational church. We have 2 children (now 2 and 4). 2 years ago, I began the journey to come back. He was not pleased AT ALL. He has refused to have our marriage blessed in the church (I would need to do this in order to fully come back to the church because I was baptized and raised Catholic). He told me that he would have rather had me cheat on him that for me to revert. He will not listen to any reason or information about the misconceptions he has about the Church. He will not let me take the kids to mass. My husband wants us to go to church as a family and church is very important to him. He has never taken a very strong role in religon though.
One Sunday he was not feeling well and wasn’t going to take the kids to his church (he decided to become Baptist after all of this). I told him that the kids needed to go to church on Sundays. I didn’t get nasty or demanding. I prayed for guidance as I spoke. I took them.
I will start the sanation process today which is a process to have the marriage “healed at the root” and it will be valid in the eyes of the Church. I will do everything I can (while preserving the peace) to bring the kids into the Church. I pray for him and the children. I teach the kids (and him!) in a way that he doesn’t realize it’s Catholic teaching. Because the teaching of the church is SO reasonable!
Here is where my prayer has led me: I firmly believe that God wouldn’t just call ME into his Church, nor for the family to split. I need to set a good example of love to my husband and children through this. Love my husband through the anger - because I DO understand where he is coming from on this (he never agreed to raise the kids Catholic and never married a Catholic!). He is just ignorant to the true teachings of the church. If I were to be demanding and nasty about this, it would destroy our marriage. Where is the testimony in that? Sure the kids would get baptized, but only to have their Dad bad mouth the Faith and they would reap the repercussions of divorce and the arguments over church. But if it is done in a gentle, loving way perhaps the whole family would come into the church and it would be a solid, Catholic upbringing with good faithful parents to learn from.
It has been one step at a time. Highest on my priority is to get the kids baptized. If he will be open to studying about it, that would surely help! And if he doesn’t believe it’s a valid baptism (which was what we were taught in the non-denom church) then it shouldn’t hurt them, right? If he believes it is valid then we are at home plate.
In your case, he is not going to church but I saw from your one post that he desires for the family to go together and even learning about the Church. Also, because of your religious past, he must understand the importance of worshiping together as a community in a church. I would continue to take your child every Sunday and invite him to the baptism and the baptism classes. But I have seen with my husband if I get controlling about this issue, it sends everything through the roof and out the door - his ears and heart immediately close. Love Love Love him through this.
Best of luck with this situation. I will remember you in my prayers.
I have stumbled upon this thread because I am in a similar situation and understand completely. I was raised Catholic and left the faith for a few years. During that time, I met my husband and we married in a non-denominational church. We have 2 children (now 2 and 4). 2 years ago, I began the journey to come back. He was not pleased AT ALL. He has refused to have our marriage blessed in the church (I would need to do this in order to fully come back to the church because I was baptized and raised Catholic). He told me that he would have rather had me cheat on him that for me to revert. He will not listen to any reason or information about the misconceptions he has about the Church. He will not let me take the kids to mass. My husband wants us to go to church as a family and church is very important to him. He has never taken a very strong role in religon though.
One Sunday he was not feeling well and wasn’t going to take the kids to his church (he decided to become Baptist after all of this). I told him that the kids needed to go to church on Sundays. I didn’t get nasty or demanding. I prayed for guidance as I spoke. I took them.
I will start the sanation process today which is a process to have the marriage “healed at the root” and it will be valid in the eyes of the Church. I will do everything I can (while preserving the peace) to bring the kids into the Church. I pray for him and the children. I teach the kids (and him!) in a way that he doesn’t realize it’s Catholic teaching. Because the teaching of the church is SO reasonable!
Here is where my prayer has led me: I firmly believe that God wouldn’t just call ME into his Church, nor for the family to split. I need to set a good example of love to my husband and children through this. Love my husband through the anger - because I DO understand where he is coming from on this (he never agreed to raise the kids Catholic and never married a Catholic!). He is just ignorant to the true teachings of the church. If I were to be demanding and nasty about this, it would destroy our marriage. Where is the testimony in that? Sure the kids would get baptized, but only to have their Dad bad mouth the Faith and they would reap the repercussions of divorce and the arguments over church. But if it is done in a gentle, loving way perhaps the whole family would come into the church and it would be a solid, Catholic upbringing with good faithful parents to learn from.
It has been one step at a time. Highest on my priority is to get the kids baptized. If he will be open to studying about it, that would surely help! And if he doesn’t believe it’s a valid baptism (which was what we were taught in the non-denom church) then it shouldn’t hurt them, right? If he believes it is valid then we are at home plate.
In your case, he is not going to church but I saw from your one post that he desires for the family to go together and even learning about the Church. Also, because of your religious past, he must understand the importance of worshiping together as a community in a church. I would continue to take your child every Sunday and invite him to the baptism and the baptism classes. But I have seen with my husband if I get controlling about this issue, it sends everything through the roof and out the door - his ears and heart immediately close. Love Love Love him through this.
Best of luck with this situation. I will remember you in my prayers.
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Convert_in_99
Guest
Heretic is not the language of the church for non catholics anymore. Thank God.
To the OP, since you converted to the faith you have a trickier case on your hands. Please talk to your priest (the one who brought you into the church would be a good start) about how to proceed from here. In the meantime, try your best to raise your children catholic. That’s all any catholic is asked to promise when marrying a non catholic is that they “do everything in their power to raise their children catholic.” That is for those who knowingly and willingly married a non catholic, so it would apply for those who converted to. You can’t force your husband to with hold his opinions, but you can make certain to express yours loud and clear to your children. Your example will be your best tool in all this. The children (and God willing your husband) will learn about faith through your example of practicing your own.
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kage_ar
Guest
A heretic is one who practices heresy. Heretic is an accurate description of those Christians who reject the Catholic Church, as well as for Catholics who meet the criterea. Heresy is defined in the CCC as (bold mine):Heretic is not the language of the church for non catholics anymore. Thank God.
scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2089.htm
**2089 ***Incredulity *is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. **“Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; *apostasy *is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; *schism *is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.”
scborromeo.org/ccc/para/817.htm
**817 **In fact, “in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. **But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame.” The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism - do not occur without human sin: **
Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.
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Convert_in_99
Guest
That is for those who believe the truth of the catholic faith and then willingly reject it. Many protestant Christians do not believe in the catholic teachings and so are not willingly rejecting them. Martin Luther believed in the catholic teachings and then openly and willingly rejected them. So he would certainly fall under the definition of heretic as you mentioned above. But it is not so for many protestants today. They never believed in the catholic teachings, so they are practicing their faith to the best of their known ability. Once they realize the catholic church is the one true church and then knowingly reject her, then that is when heresy comes into play. Same for a wavering catholic. One who is shaky in their catholic faith due to poor upbringing or the like. It is not their fault that they do not believe in full. Once they are educated and enlightened and they come to realize the catholic faith to be the one true faith, if they then continue to reject that faith, they are committing heresy. Pope John Paul II was very clear in not using the word heretic in reference to non Christians.
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jmcrae
Guest
What kind of counselling did you receive before you became Catholic? Did your priest know that you were married with a child, and that you were converting without them?
I did the same thing - my family remains in the Protestant faith, and I am the only Catholic. I received quite a bit of counselling from my priest beforehand, around issues of birth control, the practice of my faith in the home, and strategies on keeping the marriage together even though we are of different faiths.
This was really important for me. I doubt we would still be together if I had not followed the priest’s advice, or if I had not gone for counselling in the first place, before making the jump across the Tiber.
I did the same thing - my family remains in the Protestant faith, and I am the only Catholic. I received quite a bit of counselling from my priest beforehand, around issues of birth control, the practice of my faith in the home, and strategies on keeping the marriage together even though we are of different faiths.
This was really important for me. I doubt we would still be together if I had not followed the priest’s advice, or if I had not gone for counselling in the first place, before making the jump across the Tiber.
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