Should I move to a different parish?

[casey_zia]

Thought of an old joke–came to me years ago in our local struggles with a liturgist/pastoral assistant:
Q: What’s the difference between a terrorist and a liturgist?
A: You can negotiate with a terrorist.

Now serious: You are a prayerful dedicated person. What is Christ asking of you? Can you learn anything from this situation, or is it better for your soul to leave? Sometimes it takes one person to stand up to the abuse, you probably aren’t the first one who has had problems like this. I am praying for you and your parish. “This too shall pass”, really.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Ummm. One last thought here. I don’t know how vengeful the lady is, but I take it she sure can be. Now, she’s your 'superior" it seems. You are lower on the food chain in the parish. I hate to be this way about it, and am almost reluctant to say it, but what if she hates you enough to assert to, say, the pastor or some parish committee that you made an improper advance to her in the course of all the arranging and choreographing and instructing? You will very much wish you had taken a “time out” at another parish if that happens. They’re likely to believe her, for all the reasons, and parishes are pretty jumpy right now about allegations like that. If that happens, you’ll never be in a ministry again in that parish, and maybe not in any other.

I realize I’m being pretty far out with this, but there are certain risks that simply are not worth it, even if they seem unlikely. What’s that old saying “Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.” ? A vengeful person is unpredictable, and the best preventive to being a recipient of their ire is to not be within their immediate range of attention.

 

[simpleusername]

agreed.

 

[Debora123]

Stay, and continue your ministries. The Church is supposed to be about you and God. Don’t let one ex girlfriend drive you away.

 

[Leegal]

Stay, and continue your ministries. The Church is supposed to be about you and God. Don’t let one ex girlfriend drive you away.

I thought so too – stand his ground. On the other hand, if he’s really that stressed over this he cannot be effective while watching over his shoulder.

But if he leaves she wins and he starts all over again in a new parish.

And if she is vindictive, she may ratchet up her obstructions.

He knows her better than any of us and whether or not that is a possibiity. Did the pastor make him an EM despite her trying to impede the process? How aware is the pastor that this was not some clerical error on her part?

To the OP, is she playing with a full deck – do you think?

 

[rhiannonh]

Wow! Just looked up “Catholic lay liturgist” and it directed me right back to an explanation of it on CAF. I read it. According to what I read, a liturgist is practically the pastor of the parish. Runs nearly everything, and certainly all the “ministeries”.

I think if the lady is making her opposition obvious in front of others, or is treating you badly in whatever your subordinate functions are, I would be out of there without so much as a look in the rearview mirror.

I still wouldn’t leave. What I would do is talk to the main priest straight away and if you don’t get the support or understanding there, talk to the Bishop if the Liturgists has amount of stance in your church?

and yeh, whilst everyone is jumpy, internationally/interfaith when it comes to accusations of such nature…
please talk to main priest and write to the Bishop about the situation.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Ummm. One last thought here. I don’t know how vengeful the lady is, but I take it she sure can be. Now, she’s your 'superior" it seems. You are lower on the food chain in the parish. I hate to be this way about it, and am almost reluctant to say it, but what if she hates you enough to assert to, say, the pastor or some parish committee that you made an improper advance to her in the course of all the arranging and choreographing and instructing? You will very much wish you had taken a “time out” at another parish if that happens. They’re likely to believe her, for all the reasons, and parishes are pretty jumpy right now about allegations like that. If that happens, you’ll never be in a ministry again in that parish, and maybe not in any other.

I realize I’m being pretty far out with this, but there are certain risks that simply are not worth it, even if they seem unlikely. What’s that old saying “Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.” ? A vengeful person is unpredictable, and the best preventive to being a recipient of their ire is to not be within their immediate range of attention.

Not to be paranoid, but this happens. People get power-drunk and think they should have say over everything that happens in a parish. Quite the lesson about fraternization - this happens in corporations down to small businesses, and rarely does it turn out well. People like the OP’s ex-girlfriend frighten me, because they can’t set their own human need for control aside and they act out their issues all over the organization.

OP, I know you say you are content but this woman has the power to make your life miserable in so many ways. If things are escalating even though you are doing nothing to cause that, she has her own image of the situation that is not likely to change no matter what you do. First, I would go back to the priest, explain the ENTIRE situation and be sure he knows you now regret becoming involved with this lady in the first place. Hold nothing back from him. Tell him that you are willing, for everyone’s sake, to take a break while waiting for her to move on, but that it is only in concern for others that you do so.

To me, the stress and grief just aren’t worth it. You can start participating at another parish and maybe that will turn out to be a blessing.

Good luck and let us know what happens.

 

[joshvanrad]

He knows her better than any of us and whether or not that is a possibiity. Did the pastor make him an EM despite her trying to impede the process? How aware is the pastor that this was not some clerical error on her part?

To the OP, is she playing with a full deck – do you think?

Fr. did make me an EMHC regardless of what the ex did. He said he intended to have me be an EMHC and he saw no reason to not go along with what we had initially planned. He said it didn’t matter if it was a clerical error or she was being vindictive, either way she was not doing her job.

I don’t know how many cards she is playing with, but I know she is playing from emotion and not thinking objectively.

Ite in pace,
Joshua

 

[Leegal]

Fr. did make me an EMHC regardless of what the ex did. He said he intended to have me be an EMHC and he saw no reason to not go along with what we had initially planned. He said it didn’t matter if it was a clerical error or she was being vindictive, either way she was not doing her job.

I don’t know how many cards she is playing with, but I know she is playing from emotion and not thinking objectively.

Ite in pace,
Joshua

So, the pastor is aware that is was more than a “mistake.” Think about this. If you leave the parish for any reason, you are supposed to tell the parish that you are moving to another parish. And they are going to ask why? You can’t lie and say “I’m moving.”

He spoke to her, hence her calling you out for going over her head, and with some prayer give it another couple of weeks. She may take less focus on you. I pray that she does. If she ratchets up, then you are going to have go over her head again. Do not promise her you will leave because you are giving over your own power to make decisions to her. If you wind up leaving, it’s on your terms – not because she demanded that you do so.

I’m still amazed that one parishoner, albeit the liturgist, can ask someone to leave the parish.

 

[joshvanrad]

So, the pastor is aware that is was more than a “mistake.” Think about this. If you leave the parish for any reason, you are supposed to tell the parish that you are moving to another parish. And they are going to ask why? You can’t lie and say “I’m moving.”

He spoke to her, hence her calling you out for going over her head, and with some prayer give it another couple of weeks. She may take less focus on you. I pray that she does. If she ratchets up, then you are going to have go over her head again. Do not promise her you will leave because you are giving over your own power to make decisions to her. If you wind up leaving, it’s on your terms – not because she demanded that you do so.

I’m still amazed that one parishoner, albeit the liturgist, can ask someone to leave the parish.

I fear factions have already begun to grow within the church over this and I do no desire that at all. I has caused me so much spiritual turmoil. It may just be the best short term solution that I leave until she moves on from here.

 

[DasErlibnis]

Ok. Bake her a cake for real, and give it to her in front of her peers. Then if she is hostile aggressive or even passive aggressive it will be obvious to everyone that the burden is now on her.

 

[Leegal]

I fear factions have already begun to grow within the church over this and I do no desire that at all. I has caused me so much spiritual turmoil. It may just be the best short term solution that I leave until she moves on from here.

You did not explain this. I assumed that all of this took place out of others’ hearing. However, I suspected that eventually it was bound to become obvious.

If your “gut” tells you to move, realize that she may never leave, or not for a very long time by which time you will be well immersed in another life in another parish. She may change her mind; she may not find another job in wherever she is going, she might think this Church is her place (despite not feeling at home). I would not count on her leaving, so I would not count on this being a short term solution unless there’s intervention on the part of the pastor.

However, I am even more amazed that factions are growing within a parish, as I am that a liturgist would even do this.

I think you have to tell all to the pastor, give him your regrets, advise him that it’s causing people to now take sides (obviously she’s speaking to people), and that you will not be able to stay as the object in such disharmony in a PARISH, in which this has no place.

But I would place the fact that she asked you to leave and is making things unbearable, even to discussing this with parishoners in order to gain sympathy (or whatever), squarely in her lap. Even if you go the pastor he has to know what the liturgist is doing and continues to do. She is creating great harm to the parish if she bears false witness, obstructs ministries, and acts in grave error to the detriment of the parish life.

 

[Leegal]

I thought of something else. You said she likes to move, not stay anywhere long, does not feel this Church is “home”, wants to move on again, etc.

Can this be a pattern indicative of a greater and repetitive problem?

Do you know the parish where she came from last year. How far away?

Be careful of your reputation with this woman. You say it has nothing to do with the breakup, but I think it does – in part. And when things don’t go her way, it is always someone else’s fault.

 

[EasterJoy]

I fear factions have already begun to grow within the church over this and I do no desire that at all. I has caused me so much spiritual turmoil. It may just be the best short term solution that I leave until she moves on from here.

Talk to your pastor. He will have ideas about how to deal with the problem in a way that minimizes turmoil, both in you and in the parish, but I doubt that he will believe that you need to hide from this.

The reason is that giving in to someone who is exercising poor judgement and engaging in inappropriate behavior is not good for her, not good for her future in her chosen line of work, and not good for the parish as a whole. IOW, this isn’t just about you.

Again: Talk with your pastor. I think he’ll help you find a way to serve your parish in peace. If there is going to be some unpleasantness, that is not the worst thing in the world. Sometimes it takes some unpleasantness before a problem can be faced and truly resolved.

 

[puzzleannie]

I amShe has made it very clear that she does not intend to stick around the parish and her time there is limited. She has made it very clear that she wishes to move from my home town and the church. So my question is:

Should I move to a different parish until she leaves to avoid her confrontational attitude, should I stay at the church and continue my ministries there, or should I stay at the church and give up my ministries until she is gone?

!

in traditional etiquette the man in such a situation (whether the dumper or the dumpee) would as a gentleman make himself scarce for the time being–move, join a different social circle, go on a world cruise etc.

She does not seem to possess the maturity to handle your presence even if there is no communication (which means she does not possess the maturity for any parish ministry, but that is the pastor’s business, not ours) so you may have to be the gracious adult and either come to a different Mass, engage in another ministry where you don’t see her (my pull is for catechist of course), or disappear to the neighboring parish until she leaves (least preferred choice). consult your own comfort level, too, as this sounds like it is putting stress on you.

I fear factions have already begun to grow within the church over this and I do no desire that at all. I has caused me so much spiritual turmoil. It may just be the best short term solution that I leave until she moves on from here.

so you were not quite up front in your OP
sounds like everyone else in the parish needs to grow up, too
why on earth is this information even common knowledge, let alone a bone of contention? is the pastor asleep at the switch?

 

[joshvanrad]

so you were not quite up front in your OP
sounds like everyone else in the parish needs to grow up, too
why on earth is this information even common knowledge, let alone a bone of contention? is the pastor asleep at the switch?

He isn’t happy with what she has been doing for the parish. I found this out after talking to him.

I had really hoped that sides would not be taken after her and I split up, but it would seem she is driving it that direction. The pastor and I are pretty close and I certainly don’t want to drive a wedge in between the pastor and his staff. I will meet with him this week and talk about what is to happen in the very immediate future.

The bottom line is that this has been bringing me some great spiritual turmoil lately. It has been creating a lot of self-doubt having to deal with these confrontations lately and I am beginning to feel “spiritually ill”. For now, remaining at the church and fighting for what I feel is right and just does not seem worth it for all the spiritual turmoil it has been causing me.

If she wants to win this battle, she can feel as if she has won and I will back out, and she will have to confront her sins later in her life. I just can’t battle her on this with all of the twists the situation keeps taking. It is hard on me, the pastor, the parish, and while she may not admit it, it is hard on her as well.

Ite in pace,
Joshua C.

 

[EasterJoy]

in traditional etiquette the man in such a situation (whether the dumper or the dumpee) would as a gentleman make himself scarce for the time being–move, join a different social circle, go on a world cruise etc.

That’s a new one on me. Maybe one has to be in the social class that traditionally went on world cruises? In the social class that lives on a farm next to people whose grandparents knew your grandparents and whose grandchildren will know your grandchildren, you just bite the bullet, fake a smile, and live with the situation until it blows over…which may be when everyone has managed to marry someone else.

why on earth is this information even common knowledge, let alone a bone of contention? is the pastor asleep at the switch?

Teach any pastor how to eliminate gossip and rash judgement in his parish, and he’ll kiss your feet and remember you every day in his prayers until the day he dies.

 

[Incomplete]

Teach any pastor how to eliminate gossip and rash judgement in his parish, and he’ll kiss your feet and remember you every day in his prayers until the day he dies.

I love this. So true.

 

[UntimelyGiggles]

Josh,
Sorry to hear this. But you know, I do feel this is a mission that God put upon you. It is after all, no coincidence that He’s making you choose between service and … well, no service. And maybe, it’s to teach you something even greater ---- peace.

But I remember Mother Teresa said, at one point:
The fruit of silence is prayer,
the fruit of prayer is faith,
the fruit of faith is love,
the fruit of love is service,
the fruit of service is peace.

I mean, don’t get me wrong, I can definitely see how complicated it can get, but loving and giving till it hurts … I feel that’s the stage we’re at. But it’s only through the fruit of that we find the meaning of service… It’s only through the fruit of loving everyone in the parish including your ex, that we find service even more meaningful.

I would say… Love her (not as a girlfriend or a significant other), but as a child of God. Accept that she’s still a little bit heartbroken from your guys’s relationship, and go from there. It’s hard, I know, and I can see how it can bring you some spiritual turmoil, but Jesus loves you! Keep that joy of loving in your heart, and then spread it.

So yes, have a little faith until it grows to love through service and finding your own peace. My prayers are with you

 

[SMHW]

If she wants to win this battle, she can feel as if she has won and I will back out, and she will have to confront her sins later in her life. I just can’t battle her on this with all of the twists the situation keeps taking. It is hard on me, the pastor, the parish, and while she may not admit it, it is hard on her as well.

I looked back on the poll you created and saw that your three main options were to leave, to stay and do what you have been doing, or to stay and give up what you have been doing. It seems that staying and continuing with your previous area of ministry involves a fight. You seem to imply that giving up your current ministries means doing nothing.

I suggested earlier in this thread that you might want to stay in your parish but switch to a different ministry. I’d like to reiterate that.

I can’t remember how it went exactly, but when I worked (paid) for my parish there was a joke that went around something to the effect that if you work for the Church several things eventually happen: Your spouse leaves you, your children stop going to Mass, and you lose your Faith. I think there was at least one more “pleasant” result…

My point is that the parish is not immune from the crazy office politics that plague any other organization. I’ve seen both employees and volunteers badly hurt by Church doings. Sometimes the hurt person was a direct target and sometimes the hurt person was a victim of collateral damage in what otherwise seemed to be a beneficial action.

People who are treated unfairly on the job are often encouraged by their friends to fight for their rights and for the greater good of society. While such battles may ultimately result in greater justice in the workforce, they seldom result in any kind of real victory or peace for the specific individual. Both winners and losers make enemies.

This can happen at the parish level too. I can’t tell you whether or not you should fight a battle at your parish. I can tell you that you shouldn’t expect to find personal peace if you do fight. You are obviously not finding it now. Even if your ex leaves, some of her supporters (who only know her side of the story) will still be around.

What you can do is to avoid fighting but still show your true character by doing something positive for your parish. That is why I suggested that you get involved in ministries that are outside of your ex’s sphere of influence. They may not be where your interest lies but such ministries often are in more need of people than the more prestigious liturgical ministries. (And yes, in many parishes, liturgical ministries ARE considered prestigious.)