I don’t see how you can say that, and also say that you don’t see where Jesus claimed to be God.
An answer to prayer already!
I accept Jesus as God, but he never claimed it anywhere. If you’re going to use the gospel of John I’ll just say that it is probably more theological than actually historical.I don’t see how you can say that, and also say that you don’t see where Jesus claimed to be God.
An answer to prayer already!
Its both.
God told Moses to tell the people, “I AM.”
Jim
I would say it has a little more history to it than we credit it for. But still mostly theological. That is the position of N.T Wright. It just seems more theological as well. If we compare it to the Johannine epistles we can see this. A lot of the same poetic philosophical language is used. Also, there seems to be some external clues in some of the very early Church fathers that this was theological since there were problems with Gnostics at the time. For example, we find in Ignatius of Antioch Letter to the Smyrnaeans, "They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death in the midst of their disputes. But it were better for them to treat it with respect, that they also might rise again. It is fitting, therefore, that you should keep aloof from such persons, and not to speak of them either in private or in public, but to give heed to the prophets, and above all, to the Gospel, in which the passion [of Christ] has been revealed to us, and the resurrection has been fully proved. But avoid all divisions, as the beginning of evils." We then find in John, which was written around the same time period as this, a long discourse by Jesus on the Eucharist in John chapter 6. And some of Jesus’s disciples desert him. The author was trying to make it clear in this chapter that the Eucharist is truly Jesus and that Jesus is truly human giving his flesh as food, but some of the so called followers of Jesus [Gnostics] deny this.
I guess I’m not following your point here ?
I’m saying Johns gospel was probably written for orthodox Christians to help battle Gnostics.
You mentioned you grew up Catholic and left because you didn’t agree with everything. I have to reiterate Petaro’s suggestion on finding a priest 'of some ‘intellect’ to talk to. I was able to fill in all the holes in my flawed spiritual upbringing by studying with a patient, and brilliant Eastern Orthodox monk: church history, Bible study with early church father’s commentaries, etc. Major problem for me converting to EO, I would not abandon my thoughts on the supremacy of the Pope. I believe someone has to be in charge.
I’d just like to interject here the fact that it isn’t up to us to agree or disagree with Church teachings based on any theologians’ ideas about anything. The Church is very well aware of all these arguments for and against everything you can name, but the decisions regarding what is authentic Church teaching and what isn’t is up the Magisterium. We have no good reason to doubt John wrote his Gospel, none at all except for speculations by some with very pointed agendas. Do get your head out of such writings and into the Gospel itself. Catholicism is to be practiced not picked apart in order to find out what God “really” wanted us to know/do. We know what we are to do, we are simply to do it.
The devil loves to prey on our pride, our need to be in control of everything. Don’t let him manipulate you like that. Be reconciled to Christ’s Church and you will have peace, assurance of God’s graces, and plenty to challenge you just living out your Catholic faith.Great exhortation Della.I’d just like to interject here the fact that it isn’t up to us to agree or disagree with Church teachings based on any theologians’ ideas about anything. The Church is very well aware of all these arguments for and against everything you can name, but the decisions regarding what is authentic Church teaching and what isn’t is up the Magisterium. We have no good reason to doubt John wrote his Gospel, none at all except for speculations by some with very pointed agendas. Do get your head out of such writings and into the Gospel itself. Catholicism is to be practiced not picked apart in order to find out what God “really” wanted us to know/do. We know what we are to do, we are simply to do it.
Do you think Jesus wouldn’t have corrected the Sanhedrin’s “mistaken” idea that he claimed to be the Son of God since it meant his life? Jesus most certainly made it clear that he is the I AM. The Scriptures weren’t given to us to determine doctrine for ourselves, it was given to us to aid us in our journey with and to God. Do stop trying to be your own Magisterium and trust the Church Christ founded upon the Apostles and their successors.
:tiphat:
Indeed, the same can be said for any of the Church’s teachings re: their scriptural underpinnings, yes? Picking it all apart isn’t the best way to discover its meaning, rather living it is. Theology is best left to theologians. For us average lay people trusting in Christ and his Church is best for our souls, our happiness, and our call to be perfected in God’s love. That is our duty and our charism.
Actually, we do have very good reason to think John has not written the gospel of John. We have loads of internal and external evidence. John is mostly theological, not historical. And that is it. Indeed, one cannot simply interpret scripture on his own. He needs help. I have not simply interpreted the scriptures on my own. I have had much guidance, much help from many other biblical theologians. Many well educated and well respected scholars. Many who agree on the same things. One of them was even a Catholic priest. His name was Fr. Raymond Brown.I’d just like to interject here the fact that it isn’t up to us to agree or disagree with Church teachings based on any theologians’ ideas about anything. The Church is very well aware of all these arguments for and against everything you can name, but the decisions regarding what is authentic Church teaching and what isn’t is up the Magisterium. We have no good reason to doubt John wrote his Gospel, none at all except for speculations by some with very pointed agendas. Do get your head out of such writings and into the Gospel itself. Catholicism is to be practiced not picked apart in order to find out what God “really” wanted us to know/do. We know what we are to do, we are simply to do it.
Do you think Jesus wouldn’t have corrected the Sanhedrin’s “mistaken” idea that he claimed to be the Son of God since it meant his life? Jesus most certainly made it clear that he is the I AM. The Scriptures weren’t given to us to determine doctrine for ourselves, it was given to us to aid us in our journey with and to God. Do stop trying to be your own Magisterium and trust the Church Christ founded upon the Apostles and their successors.
Every Christian is a theologian.
AMEN, Very well said, your sooo right, “Catholicism is to be practiced not picked apart in order to find out what God “really” wanted us to know/do. We know what we are to do, we are simply to do it.” And I would add, to TRUST GOD. God Bless, MemawI’d just like to interject here the fact that it isn’t up to us to agree or disagree with Church teachings based on any theologians’ ideas about anything. The Church is very well aware of all these arguments for and against everything you can name, but the decisions regarding what is authentic Church teaching and what isn’t is up the Magisterium. We have no good reason to doubt John wrote his Gospel, none at all except for speculations by some with very pointed agendas. Do get your head out of such writings and into the Gospel itself. Catholicism is to be practiced not picked apart in order to find out what God “really” wanted us to know/do. We know what we are to do, we are simply to do it.
Do you think Jesus wouldn’t have corrected the Sanhedrin’s “mistaken” idea that he claimed to be the Son of God since it meant his life? Jesus most certainly made it clear that he is the I AM. The Scriptures weren’t given to us to determine doctrine for ourselves, it was given to us to aid us in our journey with and to God. Do stop trying to be your own Magisterium and trust the Church Christ founded upon the Apostles and their successors.
Simply because someone takes up the profession of theologian or is ordained doesn’t confer on him or her any special authority to decide matters of faith and morals. It simply doesn’t.
So, have you read theologians who have evidence for John’s authorship? Or are you simply accepting what you already want to believe?It is good you are studying and searching thephilo but you may not do well with Catholicism because we are expected to submit to the Church’s interpretation of scripture.
Yes, Catholics are not theological “Lone Rangers” who ferret out theological truths for ourselves. Neither are we puppets or slaves. Rather, we freely consent to the Church’s teachings since we trust in Christ, who established his Church to preach, teach and baptize in his name. Every Sunday we recite one of the Creeds, again affirming our beliefs which the Church formulated in them. We are not “people of the book” as many of our Protestant brethren are. We are people of Christ’s “one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church.”
