Should I say I "believe" God exists? Or that I "know?" I say I know

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Windfish

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I have understood the Catholic notion of faith to involve trust, not belief, in God. And this trust is based on a knowledge of God, which in, turn, is based on evidence. For example, the Resurrection was proof enough for the apostles that Jesus was who He proclaimed Himself to be.

Recently, I have been using stronger language like “know” instead of “believe” in my discussions on this topic, and it has frustrated a lot of people. I think there is compelling enough evidence which demonstrates and proves the truth of Christianity for me to say that I “know” God exists.

To use a popular example, the events at Fatima, Portugal in 1917. For anyone not in the know:

-The Blessed Virgin Mary appeared to three young children six times on the 13th of every month between May and October. She promised the children that she would perform a miracle in October so that all would believe.
-Sure enough, at the exact moment foretold, the miracle happened and was witnessed by 100,000 people.

There’s more to the events, of course, but those are the basics. I have bought and read six long books on the subject, and the history is incontrovertible. The event happened, and it was miraculous. I could go into the specifics if necessary, but the evidence is VAST and beyond all doubt.

Taken together with all of the other evidence and reasons for God, why can’t I say that I “know” God exists?
 
You can say you know. It is getting to late for me to remember my epistemology class off the top of my head, but there is a way that you can philosophically demonstrate that you know He exists.
 
I say “I know”, because we do know, by faith, even if not by direct evidence. The faith itself is the evidence. (also the Resurrection and many miracles ;))
 
You can say you know. It is getting to late for me to remember my epistemology class off the top of my head,
Oh dear.
…but there is a way that you can philosophically demonstrate that you know He exists.
Really??? Why don’t you get all your epistomology books and come back and show how? Perhaps, it would be a better use of your time to pray every day for humility and charity.
 
I say “I know”, because we do know, by faith, even if not by direct evidence. The faith itself is the evidence. (also the Resurrection and many miracles ;))
I agree with you Monica. It is a matter of faith and through faith you *can **come to know * and with more certainity than you ever could had been able with the intellect.

Peace,

Abba
 
Oh dear.

Really??? Why don’t you get all your epistomology books and come back and show how? Perhaps, it would be a better use of your time to pray every day for humility and charity.
Faith divorced form reason is an incomplete faith. If one cannot use philosophy in their theology, then your theology is little more than emotional musings. It is vitally important that we be able to demonstrate the existence of God through reason alone. A good place to start would be the proofs of St. Thomas Aquinas in the Summa Theologicae.
 
Faith divorced form reason is an incomplete faith. If one cannot use philosophy in their theology, then your theology is little more than emotional musings. It is vitally important that we be able to demonstrate the existence of God through reason alone. A good place to start would be the proofs of St. Thomas Aquinas in the Summa Theologicae.
Is this your answer? A regurgitation of what you have read and to quote out of context? Where is your proof? Stop diverting the topic and accusing people of things they are not doing to win. This technique of yours is really sad.

Let me not divorce the Incarnation from reason nor the Eucharist nor the existence of God. Educate me you who knows everything. I still think that it would be a better use of your time to pray for humilty and to love and respect your brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus.
 
One can “Know” God Exists via positiva

General A Posteriori proofs for the Existance of God; Summa fratris Alexandri & Summa Theologica
General A Priori proofs for the Existance of God; Proslogion Critique of Judgement
General A Posteriori proof of nessecary creator; Tractatus de Primo Principio
General A Priori proof of souls; De Spiritualitate Et Immortalitate Animae Humane

One cannot “Know” Jesus is God, God is the Catholic God per se via positiva, but it is “Knowable” via negativa

General via negativa methodologies; Mystical Theology (Pseudo-Dionysius the Areopagite), The Cloud of Unknowing (anon). Summa Theolgica.

But; barring via negativa experiences; one may want to be humble and claim they only “believe” the God they “know” to exist to be Christian.

👍
 
Hello Windfish,

I think you may want to read the quote below. In harmony with this, my understanding is that it is God who gives knowledge of himself to whom he pleases. He calls us and if we seek him we shall find. Every soul is different and so the journey. I think following the commandments, and receiving the sacraments especially confession and the Eucharist, and loving people as God loves us is the way to come closer to God and come to know him. In the heart of the Church you will find Our Lord. You come to know with your soul and God may bless you abundantly as he has many faithfuls. This is my humble opinion and understanding. I am still learning and expect to be the rest of my days on earth. It is always good to speak with a priest too.

CHAPTER ONE
MAN’S CAPACITY FOR GOD

I. THE DESIRE FOR GOD

27 The desire for God is written in the human heart, because man is created by God and for God; and God never ceases to draw man to himself. Only in God will he find the truth and happiness he never stops searching for:

The dignity of man rests above all on the fact that he is called to communion with God. This invitation to converse with God is addressed to man as soon as he comes into being. For if man exists it is because God has created him through love, and through love continues to hold him in existence. He cannot live fully according to truth unless he freely acknowledges that love and entrusts himself to his creator.1
28 In many ways, throughout history down to the present day, men have given expression to their quest for God in their religious beliefs and behavior: in their prayers, sacrifices, rituals, meditations, and so forth. These forms of religious expression, despite the ambiguities they often bring with them, are so universal that one may well call man a religious being:



30 "Let the hearts of those who seek the LORD rejoice."5 Although man can forget God or reject him, He never ceases to call every man to seek him, so as to find life and happiness. But this search for God demands of man every effort of intellect, a sound will, “an upright heart”, as well as the witness of others who teach him to seek God.

You are great, O Lord, and greatly to be praised: great is your power and your wisdom is without measure. And man, so small a part of your creation, wants to praise you: this man, though clothed with mortality and bearing the evidence of sin and the proof that you withstand the proud. Despite everything, man, though but a small a part of your creation, wants to praise you. You yourself encourage him to delight in your praise, for you have made us for yourself, and our heart is restless until it rests in you.6
II. WAYS OF COMING TO KNOW GOD

31 Created in God’s image and called to know and love him, the person who seeks God discovers certain ways of coming to know him. These are also called proofs for the existence of God, not in the sense of proofs in the natural sciences, but rather in the sense of “converging and convincing arguments”, which allow us to attain certainty about the truth. These “ways” of approaching God from creation have a twofold point of departure: the physical world, and the human person.

32 The world: starting from movement, becoming, contingency, and the world’s order and beauty, one can come to a knowledge of God as the origin and the end of the universe.

As St. Paul says of the Gentiles: For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made.7
And St. Augustine issues this challenge: Question the beauty of the earth, question the beauty of the sea, question the beauty of the air distending and diffusing itself, question the beauty of the sky. . . question all these realities. All respond: “See, we are beautiful.” Their beauty is a profession [confessio]. These beauties are subject to change. Who made them if not the Beautiful One [Pulcher] who is not subject to change?8

33 The human person: with his openness to truth and beauty, his sense of moral goodness, his freedom and the voice of his conscience, with his longings for the infinite and for happiness, man questions himself about God’s existence. In all this he discerns signs of his spiritual soul. The soul, the “seed of eternity we bear in ourselves, irreducible to the merely material”,9 can have its origin only in God.

34 The world, and man, attest that they contain within themselves neither their first principle nor their final end, but rather that they participate in Being itself, which alone is without origin or end. Thus, in different ways, man can come to know that there exists a reality which is the first cause and final end of all things, a reality “that everyone calls God”.10

35 Man’s faculties make him capable of coming to a knowledge of the existence of a personal God. But for man to be able to enter into real intimacy with him, God willed both to reveal himself to man and to give him the grace of being able to welcome this revelation in faith. The proofs of God’s existence, however, can predispose one to faith and help one to see that faith is not opposed to reason.

III. THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD ACCORDING TO THE CHURCH

36 "Our holy mother, the Church, holds and teaches that God, the first principle and last end of all things, can be known with certainty from the created world by the natural light of human reason."11 Without this capacity, man would not be able to welcome God’s revelation. Man has this capacity because he is created “in the image of God”.12

continues here:
va/archive/catechism/p1s1c1.htm
 
Is this your answer? A regurgitation of what you have read and to quote out of context? Where is your proof? Stop diverting the topic and accusing people of things they are not doing to win. This technique of yours is really sad.

Let me not divorce the Incarnation from reason nor the Eucharist nor the existence of God. Educate me you who knows everything. I still think that it would be a better use of your time to pray for humilty and to love and respect your brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus.
What are you talking about? I have never claimed to know everything. I am not diverting anything. The topic of the thread is whether we can “know” or simply “believe.” What have I done to offend you?
 
You may well “know,” but if that claim is offensive to someone there’s no point in getting hung up on it, is there? You can just as well say you believe and have good reasons for doing so, namely, etc… Unless your purpose is more strictly philosophical, I would think that approach would be more constructive.
 
You may well “know,” but if that claim is offensive to someone there’s no point in getting hung up on it, is there? You can just as well say you believe and have good reasons for doing so, namely, etc… Unless your purpose is more strictly philosophical, I would think that approach would be more constructive.
So if the truth is offensive to someone they will have to deal with it. Man in the Church have been soft peddling truth and look at the consequences.
 
Oh dear.

Really??? Why don’t you get all your epistomology books and come back and show how? Perhaps, it would be a better use of your time to pray every day for humility and charity.
Abba:

Neither you, nor CW, nor me, have cornered the market on Charity. We might all do well to remember this. :o

God bless,
jd
 
So if the truth is offensive to someone they will have to deal with it. Man in the Church have been soft peddling truth and look at the consequences.
Speaking the truth with loves requires that one not intentionally choose phrases that are needlessly offensive. What is important is to communicate *the *truth, not to use the word “truth” (mutatis mutandis for for know and “know”).
 
Good thread.

I cannot say “I know”. I even have trouble with saying “I believe”. When talking faith with others (an extremely rare event because NOBODY seems to ever want to discuss it) I resort to terms such as “if God exists”.

I will state (or attempt to state) fairly good reason why I hold out the possibility God exists) but I find I must use “if” in the context of the conversations. I cannot be convincing otherwise. I am not being truthful otherwise.

Even today at Mass, I find myself praying with an apologetic tone because I question His existence with every word of every prayer. I firmly believe “God” may have evolved, albiet well-intentioned for a variety of reasons, throughout time.

And He, hasn’t firmly planted in my mind, evidence of His existence. We say we believe through grace. I often wonder why the grace I have received, is lacking.
 
Good thread.

I cannot say “I know”. I even have trouble with saying “I believe”. When talking faith with others (an extremely rare event because NOBODY seems to ever want to discuss it) I resort to terms such as “if God exists”.

I will state (or attempt to state) fairly good reason why I hold out the possibility God exists) but I find I must use “if” in the context of the conversations. I cannot be convincing otherwise. I am not being truthful otherwise.

Even today at Mass, I find myself praying with an apologetic tone because I question His existence with every word of every prayer. I firmly believe “God” may have evolved, albiet well-intentioned for a variety of reasons, throughout time.

And He, hasn’t firmly planted in my mind, evidence of His existence. We say we believe through grace. I often wonder why the grace I have received, is lacking.
Interesting. Your faithfulness in uncertainty is an example to us all - to me, at least. 👍

All of my friends have gone away to out-of-state universities, only a few remain, so the topic rarely comes up. But when it does, I have an heir of confidence that they don’t like! :yyeess:
 
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