Should I stop taking my niece to see her mother?

[noclevername]

Hi all,
I need some help with a decision and I think this might be a good place to ask since none of you know my family or me you will be less biased. I’ll give the facts and then let you decide.

I have had full custody of my niece for three years. She is 8 years old. Her father is in jail for sexually abusing her. Her mother lives in an apt two hours away from us.

We take my niece (I’ll call her Angela) to see her mother, my half-sister, (I’ll call her Kate) about once per month. Her mother is a recovered alcoholic and drug addict. She has been clean and sober for three years. Her mother has lived in group homes for a long time but moved into her own apartment about six months ago. She is doing OK I guess.

Her mother never physically abused her but she did neglect her. My niece would go without eating. When I got her, she had cavities and had to have six teeth addressed. She was way behind on her vaccinations. I kept asking about all of this before I had custody and my sister would lie to me to say it was being taken care of. She wasn’t my kid so I couldn’t legally check behind my sister.

Before I got custody, they were living in the nastiest house you have ever seen. I can’t describe the condition of the house. I didn’t know it had gotten so bad because whenever I saw them or picked my niece up to stay at my house; they wouldn’t let me in or they would meet me somewhere. I had asked for custody for years but I didn’t get it until child protective services finally got involved.

I have asked my sister if she is ever going to try to get Angela back. She said it will be awhile and she will want to move closer to me before she ever tries. This is really a noncommittal way of my sister saying she’s not going to try to get Angela back. She doesn’t even want to petition the courts for overnight stays. Also, the lawyer I used for custody said that my sister’s court files were thick and included things that will probably never allow her to have custody again.

And to throw this in – her mother is incredibly lazy. She does work but she only has one job and works about 35hrs per week. That’s all she does – just enough to pay bills. And she works at a dead end job and has no education and no desire to do better. She doesn’t have health insurance. I am sure she is living off of food stamps because the money she makes she hides from taxes. And her mother doesn’t have a car. I have money that was given to me from her father (my step-father) to buy her a car. But I’m not going to do the work looking for one. I told her to find one. I told her what to look for, questions to ask and to get the VIN so I can look up the history of the car. But she’s not doing it. She’s not looking for a car at all. Part of me thinks it’s so that she will keep having excuses for me to drive over to see her instead of her having some responsibility to come see her daughter.

So I don’t know if it’s on my niece’s best interest to keep seeing her mother. Yes, she loves her mom and will be sad but I don’t know what to do.

Whenever we go see Angela’s mom, Angela will wet the bed the night after the visit. It happens every single time. And Angela starts having problems with having pee accidents during the day. Her therapist said this is what abused kids do at times. The day time accidents will start to get better, then we see her mom again and they start all over.

So I don’t know if it’s healthy to keep seeing her mother. My niece loves her mother and wants to see her but she also has hope that maybe someday she will be able to live with her mother again. The odd thing is that she doesn’t want ot live with her but she wants to be able to. Every kid wants there mother to want htem and I understand that. Angela’s mother loves her but not as a mother loves a child. Angela’s mother doesn’t act like she wants Angela anymore and Angela is getting old enough to sense this.

All of this is nuts. We also want to start adoption proceedings for Angela and Angela says she wants us to adopt her. I just hope her mother will sign off on it. I am sure her father will.

So my question is, should I keep taking Angela to see her mother? Or should I tell her mother that she has to find a way to get to my house if she wants to visit? OR should I just let the visits end? I am at a loss.

Sorry for the long post. Thanks for your opinions.

 

[Xantippe]

Hi all,
I need some help with a decision and I think this might be a good place to ask since none of you know my family or me you will be less biased. I’ll give the facts and then let you decide.

I have had full custody of my niece for three years. She is 8 years old. Her father is in jail for sexually abusing her. Her mother lives in an apt two hours away from us.

We take my niece (I’ll call her Angela) to see her mother, my half-sister, (I’ll call her Kate) about once per month. Her mother is a recovered alcoholic and drug addict. She has been clean and sober for three years. Her mother has lived in group homes for a long time but moved into her own apartment about six months ago. She is doing OK I guess.

Her mother never physically abused her but she did neglect her. My niece would go without eating. When I got her, she had cavities and had to have six teeth addressed. She was way behind on her vaccinations. I kept asking about all of this before I had custody and my sister would lie to me to say it was being taken care of. She wasn’t my kid so I couldn’t legally check behind my sister.

Before I got custody, they were living in the nastiest house you have ever seen. I can’t describe the condition of the house. I didn’t know it had gotten so bad because whenever I saw them or picked my niece up to stay at my house; they wouldn’t let me in or they would meet me somewhere. I had asked for custody for years but I didn’t get it until child protective services finally got involved.

I have asked my sister if she is ever going to try to get Angela back. She said it will be awhile and she will want to move closer to me before she ever tries. This is really a noncommittal way of my sister saying she’s not going to try to get Angela back. She doesn’t even want to petition the courts for overnight stays. Also, the lawyer I used for custody said that my sister’s court files were thick and included things that will probably never allow her to have custody again.

And to throw this in – her mother is incredibly lazy. She does work but she only has one job and works about 35hrs per week. That’s all she does – just enough to pay bills. And she works at a dead end job and has no education and no desire to do better. She doesn’t have health insurance. I am sure she is living off of food stamps because the money she makes she hides from taxes. And her mother doesn’t have a car. I have money that was given to me from her father (my step-father) to buy her a car. But I’m not going to do the work looking for one. I told her to find one. I told her what to look for, questions to ask and to get the VIN so I can look up the history of the car. But she’s not doing it. She’s not looking for a car at all. Part of me thinks it’s so that she will keep having excuses for me to drive over to see her instead of her having some responsibility to come see her daughter.

So I don’t know if it’s on my niece’s best interest to keep seeing her mother. Yes, she loves her mom and will be sad but I don’t know what to do.

Whenever we go see Angela’s mom, Angela will wet the bed the night after the visit. It happens every single time. And Angela starts having problems with having pee accidents during the day. Her therapist said this is what abused kids do at times. The day time accidents will start to get better, then we see her mom again and they start all over.

So I don’t know if it’s healthy to keep seeing her mother. My niece loves her mother and wants to see her but she also has hope that maybe someday she will be able to live with her mother again. The odd thing is that she doesn’t want ot live with her but she wants to be able to. Every kid wants there mother to want htem and I understand that. Angela’s mother loves her but not as a mother loves a child. Angela’s mother doesn’t act like she wants Angela anymore and Angela is getting old enough to sense this.

All of this is nuts. We also want to start adoption proceedings for Angela and Angela says she wants us to adopt her. I just hope her mother will sign off on it. I am sure her father will.

So my question is, should I keep taking Angela to see her mother? Or should I tell her mother that she has to find a way to get to my house if she wants to visit? OR should I just let the visits end? I am at a loss.

Sorry for the long post. Thanks for your opinions.

Visiting her gives you more control over the visit. If you are there, you can leave, but if the mom is at your house, it’s harder to get her out.

How about spacing the visits out a little more? You could go to once every five or six weeks and see how that works. Or be more assertive about prioritizing your family schedule. For instance, if Angela or you have a particularly busy month, skip that month and see what happens. I’d say play it by ear.

Angela may be more psychologically robust in a few years, which might be the time to put down your foot and tell her mom that she needs to take responsibility for visits. Angela’s school and extracurriculars will also probably be getting more demanding then, so it’s going to be less and less feasible to devote a whole day a month to making these unsatisfactory visits.

You’re doing a very good thing.

Best wishes!

 

[nodito]

What a blessing you are in your niece’s life! Thank God for you and for the family you are giving Angela.

With custody, do you have the legal option of stopping visits?

If you do have that choice then the most important thing, as I think you realize, is to do what’s in the best interest of your neice. I know you know this, but it can be helpful to make that the focus of your deliberation, because it’s more precise than trying to weigh all the other factors (your inconvenience, your sister’s wishes, etc). What is best for Angela? Is it that she continues a relationship with her biological mother so that she can maintain a family connection or is it that she severs ties with a flaky and unsettling adult that is causing her distress?

I would probably discuss the decision with her therapist and if you do decide to phase out visits, do it gradually (as, in skip a visit one month and see if Angela’s symptoms improve or if she seems more dispondant). Consult a lawyer if you’re not sure of the legal ramifications. Maybe broach the subject of adoption again with your sister to see if she would be willing to surrender her parental rights. Finally, pray before the Blessed Sacrament to ask for help. Jesus is the only one in the world who knows all the people involved, is aware of all their shortcomings, and loves them anyway.

God bless.

 

[FrenzyJen]

I just want to say thank you so much for what you are doing for your niece. My husband was in a similar position when he was a child, and I am forever indebted to the relative who came into his life, got custody, and raised him better than he ever could have hoped for in the bleak situation with his parent. Thank you so much for giving this girl some stability. You have already completely changed her life, God bless you so much, and good luck!!! I hope that you can get full custody.

Either make her come to you, or meet her in the middle. If she doesn’t care to see her daughter, it will make it apparent, and it will make it easier for you to make your next move. It is easier for a child to accept that someone won’t be there than to get their hopes up and crushed dealing with a yo-yo of a parent who can’t decide if they want to be mommy or not.

 

[noclevername]

What a blessing you are in your niece’s life! Thank God for you and for the family you are giving Angela.

With custody, do you have the legal option of stopping visits?

If you do have that choice then the most important thing, as I think you realize, is to do what’s in the best interest of your neice. I know you know this, but it can be helpful to make that the focus of your deliberation, because it’s more precise than trying to weigh all the other factors (your inconvenience, your sister’s wishes, etc). What is best for Angela? Is it that she continues a relationship with her biological mother so that she can maintain a family connection or is it that she severs ties with a flaky and unsettling adult that is causing her distress?

I would probably discuss the decision with her therapist and if you do decide to phase out visits, do it gradually (as, in skip a visit one month and see if Angela’s symptoms improve or if she seems more dispondant). Consult a lawyer if you’re not sure of the legal ramifications. Maybe broach the subject of adoption again with your sister to see if she would be willing to surrender her parental rights. Finally, pray before the Blessed Sacrament to ask for help. Jesus is the only one in the world who knows all the people involved, is aware of all their shortcomings, and loves them anyway.

God bless.

THanks for your post. I don’t have to see her mother. The custody agreement says supervised visits supervised by me or someone I choose and the visits are at my discretion. In other words, I am not court mandated to see her at all. But I do. I do it for my niece. As time goes on, I keep worrying about seeing her. It is very upsetting because I don’t want to my niece to get her hopes up. She has cried saying her mother doesn’t want her. I always tell her that her mother loves her but her mother has not done the work she needs to do to better herserlf so that she can take care of someone else. In other words, I put the blame on her mother so my niece doesn’t think we are keeping her from her mom. Her therapist said to do this. She said that Angela needs to know where the problem is and it’s with her mother and not with us.

 

[Iheartcoffee]

I also agree with spacing visits out a bit more. You can always increase them again if needed, but for now spacing them out more may help your niece to be less stressed. If you provide excuses for spacing them out more (busy weekend, vacation, etc.) then no one is likely to feel offended and create more stress for your niece. Rather, it will just be a slow, natural progression to fewer visits per year.

 

[Retread_Mick]

I also agree with spacing visits out a bit more. You can always increase them again if needed, but for now spacing them out more may help your niece to be less stressed. If you provide excuses for spacing them out more (busy weekend, vacation, etc.) then no one is likely to feel offended and create more stress for your niece. Rather, it will just be a slow, natural progression to fewer visits per year.

My thoughts exactly. Kate is a very sick (as in ill) individual. Her illness may not be contagious, but unfortunately, it is catching. She is probably suffering from depression, because she obviously doesn’t care in the least about anything at all. She, probably, should be on medication, and under the care of a psychiatrist. Sadly, however, repeated and/or prolonged contact,with her can be depressing for you, and especially for someone as vulnerable as Angela.

My advice to you would be to minimize the visitations as much as practically possible, give the car money back to your stepfather, and see if he could redirect his efforts to getting some psychiatric help for her, and start praying to Saint Dymphna for her mental health.

God bless you for, what you’re doing for Angela. I’ll pray for your sister.

 

[noclevername]

My thoughts exactly. Kate is a very sick (as in ill) individual. Her illness may not be contagious, but unfortunately, it is catching. She is probably suffering from depression, because she obviously doesn’t care in the least about anything at all. She, probably, should be on medication, and under the care of a psychiatrist. Sadly, however, repeated and/or prolonged contact,with her can be depressing for you, and especially for someone as vulnerable as Angela.

My advice to you would be to minimize the visitations as much as practically possible, give the car money back to your stepfather, and see if he could redirect his efforts to getting some psychiatric help for her, and start praying to Saint Dymphna for her mental health.

God bless you for, what you’re doing for Angela. I’ll pray for your sister.

You hit the nail on the head. She is sick and she needs help but she says she doesn’t. During recovery, she fell into one of those backwoods nutty churches. I hate describing it that way but I can’t think of another way to describe it. There was something odd about the church too but I couldn’t figure out what it was.

Anyway, that church helped her recover and I am glad about that but she traded chemical addiction for a cult like addiction. My sister is depressed and has been diagnosed with depression. Not bi-polar thank goodness but depressed. Our mother suffered from it and I suffer from it. I am aware of mine and I take medication and I am OK. I told my sister if she would go see a doctor and get a prescription for something, I would pay for the doc and the prescription. But she told me “they” meaning that church, doesn’t believe it medication for things like that. She said they will pray the demons away.

So I asked her what sort of support system she had for when she felt like she wants to take a drink. For example, in AA, recovered addicts have a sponsor. My sister has nothing. I asked her what she was going to do when she is really stressed and wants a drink and she said “i’ll read my Bible”. I am happy that she will do that and I know it’s powerful but in her case it’s not enough. She needs more help and she’s not willing to get it.

Also, this same “church” breeds dogs and sells them, has a bonding company and runs a second hand store.

 

[Kal2012]

From my own experience, I would say no. Keep taking the girl to see her mother.

The thing is, in this case, it’s up to the adults in the situation to help the daughter keep up a relationship with her mom.

In my situation, my mom’s family basically dumped me when she died. I maybe heard from them every 3 or 4 years. The last time any of them actively sought to contact me was when I was 17.

My dad always kept the door open for them to contact me, but they made the choice not to keep in contact.

Don’t be the one who closes the door on her family. She’ll end up resenting you for it, in the long run - even if you think that it’s the right thing to do now. A daughter still wants her mother, even if she isn’t the best person in the world. Angela realizes that you’ve taken her out of a bad situation, but she’s always going to be emotionally attached to her mom.

Let the mom be the one to decide that she doesn’t want to visit. That way the girl knows that you did everything you could to help her maintain that difficult relationship. Kids don’t think like adults and you want to make it clear that you don’t want to deliberately cut off the relationship between her and her mom - kids are really irrational in their thought patterns.

I know it’s tough, but in the long run, it will be emotionally better for Angela. (I suspect).

She knows you’ve got her back. However, most kids would take a mentally ill mom than not have a mom at all. Good luck. God bless you.

 

[petitfleur]

Big hugs. Do you think if you start lessening the visits it would affect her descision on signing off on the adoption?

 

[Xantippe]

Big hugs. Do you think if you start lessening the visits it would affect her descision on signing off on the adoption?

That’s a very good point.

Actually, you might not want to change anything (if at all possible) right before and after the adoption.

 

[Christy_Beth]

I think it would be best, as some have already said, to space out the visits more. Also, ask Angela what is it that bothers her most about the visits. She might not be able to say, but she might give you something to go on. Her mom, no doubt, probably is a very depressed person. This may show why she’s “lazy.” I know when my depression was at it’s worst, I really had a hard time functioning. I rarely had the energy for my daughter when she was little. Now that she’s grown, I’m not so sure she understands that.

 

[Allegra]

I don’t think you should stop visits entirely, but I think it’s reasonable to space them out a little more.

 

[Retread_Mick]

You hit the nail on the head. She is sick and she needs help but she says she doesn’t. During recovery, she fell into one of those backwoods nutty churches. I hate describing it that way but I can’t think of another way to describe it. There was something odd about the church too but I couldn’t figure out what it was.

Anyway, that church helped her recover and I am glad about that but she traded chemical addiction for a cult like addiction. My sister is depressed and has been diagnosed with depression. Not bi-polar thank goodness but depressed. Our mother suffered from it and I suffer from it. I am aware of mine and I take medication and I am OK. I told my sister if she would go see a doctor and get a prescription for something, I would pay for the doc and the prescription. But she told me “they” meaning that church, doesn’t believe it medication for things like that. She said they will pray the demons away.

So I asked her what sort of support system she had for when she felt like she wants to take a drink. For example, in AA, recovered addicts have a sponsor. My sister has nothing. I asked her what she was going to do when she is really stressed and wants a drink and she said “i’ll read my Bible”. I am happy that she will do that and I know it’s powerful but in her case it’s not enough. She needs more help and she’s not willing to get it.

Also, this same “church” breeds dogs and sells them, has a bonding company and runs a second hand store.

This “church” isn’t run by Duane Chapman is it?

Bi-polar might have been a blessing. Then there would be the possibility of catching her during a manic period, and getting her to commit to a treatment program.

Are there enough family members who care enough to stage an intervention??? Has her attitude so alienated the family that they no longer care? Is the family religious? Could you possibly get the remaining members together, hold a prayer meeting for God’s guidance and assistance, and immediately stage an intervention? Prayer is a wonderful thing, and sometimes brings on miraculous cures, but the “cure” needed here is a reversal of her state of mind, so that she accepts the treatment she needs.

Her condition is due, almost certainly, to chemical deficiencies in her physical makeup. Exacerbated no doubt, by drugs and alcohol. I’m guessing that she’s borderline functional, and will have to be pushed (kicking and screaming) into any treatment/medication program. Even if you manage to get her on a proper medication program, she will most likely need supervision, to see that she takes her meds on schedule, and as required.

In the meantime try to moderate the number of visits, and their duration. As stated in your earlier post, she will likely never be able to return to the mother role, but perhaps, God willing, she might become the beloved “aunt”, or “big sister”, in the future.

Two more suggestions;
Post a request for prayers on the Prayer Intentions, and
Google “Saint Dymphna.”

God bless.

 

[SJG1759]

WWhat is best for Angela? Is it that she continues a relationship with her biological mother so that she can maintain a family connection or is it that she severs ties with a flaky and unsettling adult that is causing her distress?

I agree completely!

OP, is there a way for Angela to see her mom in a group setting? For example, if she plays a sport, you could invite mom to a game, or if she’s in dance you could invite mom to a recital. It might be a little less stressful than visit supervised by just one person, but Angela would still get to see that her mom loves her.

God bless you for doing such a wonderful thing for this little girl. You’re both in my prayers.

 

[Xantippe]

I agree completely!

OP, is there a way for Angela to see her mom in a group setting? For example, if she plays a sport, you could invite mom to a game, or if she’s in dance you could invite mom to a recital. It might be a little less stressful than visit supervised by just one person, but Angela would still get to see that her mom loves her.

God bless you for doing such a wonderful thing for this little girl. You’re both in my prayers.

Yes.

But it would need to be set up so that it wouldn’t be totally crushing if she didn’t come (which she probably wouldn’t). It might be difficult to walk the line between not surprising the kid with an unexpected appearance versus not disappointing her with her mom’s non-appearance.

Tough.

And maybe lunch or dinner with mom afterward?

It may be that Angela is particularly spooked by being in her mom’s house.

 

[noclevername]

Thank you all for your comments. I appreciate it.

And as for inviting her mother to an event like a recital or something. If there is an event like that, she is always invited but I never ever tell my niece. That way if her mother doesn’t show up, my niece isn’t devastated.

The other thing that bothers me is the example her mother sets to my niece. I am still thinking about all of this and also speaking with Angela’s therapist. But I do appreciate all of the insight from all of you.

 

[Xantippe]

And as for inviting her mother to an event like a recital or something. If there is an event like that, she is always invited but I never ever tell my niece. That way if her mother doesn’t show up, my niece isn’t devastated.

Very good!