Should joe biden be kicked out of the catholic church for supporting abortion

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Are you trying to say that your “libertarianism” extends into your Catholicism, that the Magisterium (Bishops and Archbishops) need to turn a blind eye to their flocks and allow “public” Catholics to pass laws that support homosexual marriage and abortion?
First, to reply to your earlier post, I’m not sure why you used the word “obsessively” libertarian unless you intended it as some sort of put down. I will happily state that I have held “consistently” libertarian positions for the entirety of my adult life.

However, unlike many on this forum who are either Democrats or Republicans, and whose contempt for the opposing party is quite obvious, I am registered as an “Independent” voter and am not a member of any political party. So for me, “party politics” in no way takes precedence over Catholicism. I suspect that is not the case for some on this forum.

From a political standpoint, the mistake you are making (in my opinion) is assuming more laws will result in a positive outcome. However, on issues that are not universally accepted as wrong, this is almost never the case (witness the governments failed war on drugs as an example). I suspect that is the basis for our difference of opinion.
 
Ex communication, is an act with a very positive hope as it’s basis. That hope is that the person ex communicated will repent of the wrong which occasioned the ex-communication, and reconcile with the Church. While the actual act of discipline is in the realm of either the Holy See or the involved Bishop, the Catholic politician who espouses abortion should be “called” on that by every Catholic, every time the politician defies the Church’s teaching on the subject.
 
From a political standpoint, the mistake you are making (in my opinion) is assuming more laws will result in a positive outcome. However, on issues that are not universally accepted as wrong, this is almost never the case (witness the governments failed war on drugs as an example). I suspect that is the basis for our difference of opinion.
This thread is not about government involvment or laws. Its about the Magisterium correcting Catholic politicians who disregard Catholic moral teaching.

Still unclear as to why you brought up your political beliefs when the thread concerns the Church.
 
This thread is not about government involvment or laws. Its about the Magisterium correcting Catholic politicians who disregard Catholic moral teaching.
Your first and second sentences are contradictory.
Still unclear as to why you brought up your political beliefs when the thread concerns the Church.
Perhaps you need to re-read the initial post by the OP. The OP asked a question about a politician, and then the OP asked for our thoughts and opinions, which I kindly provided.
 
By his actions against the unborn, he and multiple other “catholics” have self excommunicated themselves from receiving the Eucharist.

They care more for their reelections (their earthly jobs) than they care for the unborn.

catholicadvocate.com/wp/?page_id=10

Because their sin in public, their penance is public. Their votes must support the unborn.
Why are so many nominal Catholic and Protestant politicians given communion then?
 
In order to support the unborn, must Catholics vote for warmongers and war criminals who approve of the torture of prisoners of war and do all they can to let the poor and the sick die?
 
In order to support the unborn, must Catholics vote for warmongers and war criminals who approve of the torture of prisoners of war and do all they can to let the poor and the sick die?
I have never been faced with that choice. Obviously you dont live in the US.
 
In order to support the unborn, must Catholics vote for warmongers and war criminals who approve of the torture of prisoners of war and do all they can to let the poor and the sick die?
What unborn baby has ever done anything to deserve death? There is no comparison between a baby just created by God and its parents and any other category including prisoners on death row. Abortion trumps anything else for evil.

As for the rest of your post, I will refrain from saying what is in my mind right now.
 
Why are so many nominal Catholic and Protestant politicians given communion then?
Can’t speak for the Protestant crowd but our Church has been negligent in following its own requirements. The liberalization has been going on since VII. Joe Biden’s priest should refuse him the Eucharist and his Bishop should formally excommunicate him.

When Catholic politicians are allowed to continue pretending to be Catholic with no response from the Church, the politicians think they are not sinning and the outer world sees us as hypocritical.
 
First, I have absolutely no problem with telling anyone who would ask me that I approach my salvation with “fear and trembling” every day of my life.

Second, it amazes me how many supposedly learned people, especially Catholics, think that calling evil “sinful”, “wrong”, “a violation of Church law or teaching” is somehow being “judgmental”. Do these people REALLY not know the meaning of “being judgmental” the way that Christ taught? If I say that someone is going to hell, I am being judgmental. If I say that someone is committing a serious sin or is violating Church teaching, I am simply providing a private opinion of someone’s acts. If one would carry this “remove the plank out of your eye before you talk about others” “logic” with no end in sight, we would end up abdicating our CHARITABLE responsibility to not only correct our fellow man, but we would never be able to correct our children when they err against God. If someone wants to call me “judgmental” when I say that someone like Nancy Pelosi will have some “explaining to do” before God, based on her unabashed support of abortion on demand AND her outright distortion of Catholic teaching when she said that it was not until relatively recently that the Catholic Church determined when an unborn child had a soul and thus was a person, then so be it - I AM JUDGMENTAL!

Third, the biggest problem that arose in the Catholic Church in America started in the 1960’s and really “matured” in the 1970’s. Some of you may remember, a priest was actually elected to, and served, in the US Congress before his bishop demanded that he not run again. By being born and raised in America, I see a great many Catholic priests and bishops “adopt” a uniquely American stand when it comes to moral issues. They are raised from young believing that the law of the land is the US Constitution (which, civilly, it is), but they often forget that Holy Mother Church “trumps” the US Constitution and any other law that might be enacted in America. I find that our republican form of government has a huge influence on the USCCB and the way that many of what some call “liberal” bishops conduct their business. South American, African, and European Catholics, on the whole, do not have an “American history” of voting and dissent that is virtually “bred” into our native sons.

Finally, one need not look too far back in time to see the hubris and, yes, I will say “arrogance”, when one begins to thumb one’s nose at Rome and think one does not have to play by the rules of the Catholic Church simply because one wears a red hat in America. When a Cardinal such as Cardinal Law permitted Teddy Kennedy to serve as a Eucharistic Minister at the funeral of his mother, Rose, it was only a matter of time before such permissive behavior caught up with him.

Cardinal Law now resides at the Vatican and probably will until the end of his life . . .

P.S. I have always viewed JPII’s Evangelium Vitae, No. 73, as a “voting guide” for Americans (cited in pertinent part below):

"73. Abortion and euthanasia are thus crimes which no human law can claim to
legitimize. There is no obligation in conscience to obey such laws; instead
there is a grave and clear obligation to oppose them by conscientious
objection. From the very beginnings of the Church, the apostolic preaching
reminded Christians of their duty to obey legitimately constituted public
authorities (cf. Rom 13:1-7; 1 Pet 2:13-14), but at the same time it firmly
warned that “we must obey God rather than men” (Acts 5:29). In the Old
Testament, precisely in regard to threats against life, we find a significant
example of resistance to the unjust command of those in authority. After
Pharaoh ordered the killing of all newborn males, the Hebrew midwives
refused. “They did not do as the king of Egypt commanded them, but let the male children live” (Ex 1:17). But the ultimate reason for their action
should be noted: “the midwives feared God” (ibid.). It is precisely from
obedience to God – to whom alone is due that fear which is
acknowledgment of his absolute sovereignty – that the strength and the
courage to resist unjust human laws are born. It is the strength and the
courage of those prepared even to be imprisoned or put to the sword, in
the certainty that this is what makes for “the endurance and faith of the
saints” (Rev 13:10).

In the case of an intrinsically unjust law, such as a law permitting abortion
or euthanasia, it is therefore never licit to obey it, or to “take part in a
propaganda campaign in favour of such a law, or vote for it”.

By all means, pray for people like Pelosi, Biden, the Kennedys, Leahy, and other so-called “Catholics” who actively not only vocally support abortion, but vote for and sponsor laws permitting abortion on demand. But just as the Carmelites are a contemplative order of nuns whose calling in their vocation is constant prayer, we have Mother Teresa whose calling resulted in an order whose vocation was devoted to active participation in the community to help people IN ADDITION TO prayer.

I mean no one any disrespect, but if the ONLY response to politicians listed above is “let’s pray for them”, then we shirk a duty that Bishop Fulton J. Sheen said many years ago:

"Who is going to save our Church? Not our bishops., not our priests and religious. It is up to you, the people. You have the minds, the eyes and the ears to save the Church. Your mission is to see that priests act like priests, your bishops act like bishops, and your religious act like religious. [emphasis mine]

It IS up to us laymen to demand action by our priests and bishops with respect to so-called “Catholic” politicians who make a mockery out of our faith. For those who think we have no business commenting on such issues and that it is better left between the bishops/priests and the politicians, well . . . :mad:
 
No, they should not be kicked out of the Church. I think that there is a difference between those who really think abortion is a good thing and those that think we shouldn’t have secular laws against abortion.

Isn’t Nancy Pelosi the mother of several children? Is there any evidence that she ever had an abortion or participated in one?

Is there any evidence that Joe Biden has ever participated in an abortion?

Think about it, if all of the women in the United States suddenly decided to stop having abortions, it would not make much difference what kind of secular laws are on the books.

Now don’t get me wrong. I have always voted against the right to abortion (years ago before 1973 when the question was on the state ballot). However, I realize that there are people who don’t agree with me.

I don’t believe I have the right to recommend that they be excommunicated.
 
No, they should not be kicked out of the Church. I think that there is a difference between those who really think abortion is a good thing and those that think we shouldn’t have secular laws against abortion.

Isn’t Nancy Pelosi the mother of several children? Is there any evidence that she ever had an abortion or participated in one?

Is there any evidence that Joe Biden has ever participated in an abortion?

Think about it, if all of the women in the United States suddenly decided to stop having abortions, it would not make much difference what kind of secular laws are on the books.

Now don’t get me wrong. I have always voted against the right to abortion (years ago before 1973 when the question was on the state ballot). However, I realize that there are people who don’t agree with me.

I don’t believe I have the right to recommend that they be excommunicated.
There is direct abortion, and there is indirect - Nancy Pelosi may never have had an abortion herself but by belonging to the party that stands for unlimited access to abortions she has been indirectly responsible for millions of deaths of innocent babies. I would not like to be in her power pumps when I stand before the Lord who created those babies.
 
There is no salvation outside the Church
I clicked into this thread and found this comment more than just provocative. We have to be very careful here and can’t throw around unqualified statements like this lest we become like the Pharisees and scribes.

The belief that only members of the Catholic Church can enter heaven is incorrect. At least one priest has been excommunicated in the 20th century for teaching this. The Magesterium has taught infalliby that those who are “Ignorant” of Christ and his Church and members of other faiths can be saved.

The Magesterium teaches that as the Catholic Church alone posesses the fullness of truth, when a Baptist Pastor or evan a Islamic Mullah teaches some truth, they are teaching Catholic truth. All grace is “Catholic” grace. All forgiveness “Catholic” forgiveness. All truth is “Catholic” truth. To be clear, the Magesterium also states that those who willfully reject the Catholic Church are at a grave disadvantage but the blanket statement “There is not salvation outside the Church” without qualification or explanation is simply not true.

***“though it be not the Catholic Church itself that hands them the bread of truth and grace, yet it is Catholic bread that they eat.” And when they eat of it, “without knowing it or willing it” they are “incorporated in the supernatural substance of the Church.”***The Catechism addresses those who are “Ignorant”

Every man who is ignorant of the gospel of Christ and of his Church but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity (CCC 1260).

Refernece** DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH - LUMEN GENTIUM**

Also see “No Salvation Outside the Church” on this website.

-Tim-
 
Timothy,

You said, in response to the quote: “There is no salvation outside the Church”, that:

“I clicked into this thread and found this comment more than just provocative. We have to be very careful here and can’t throw around unqualified statements like this lest we become like the Pharisees and scribes.”

In that poster’s defense, what he cites is dogma of the Church and has been for centuries. The Church during the Fourth Lateran Council (1215)said: “There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.”

And, the most “famous” instance was by Pope Boniface VIII, in the papal bull Unam sanctam (1302), in which that Holy Father stated: “We are compelled in virtue of our faith to believe and maintain that there is only one holy Catholic Church, and that one is apostolic. This we firmly believe and profess without qualification. Outside this Church there is no salvation and no remission of sins, the Spouse in the Canticle proclaiming: ‘One is my dove, my perfect one. One is she of her mother, the chosen of her that bore her’ (Canticle of Canticles 6:8); which represents the one mystical body whose head is Christ, of Christ indeed, as God. And in this, ‘one Lord, one faith, one baptism’ (Ephesians 4:5). Certainly Noah had one ark at the time of the flood, prefiguring one Church which perfect to one cubit having one ruler and guide, namely Noah, outside of which we read all living things were destroyed… We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”

That is some pretty strong wording and many, many “liberal” Catholics try to either ignore the wording used by Boniface or put a “spin” on it to try to lessen the “effects”.

I am NOT saying that one has to be Catholic to go to Heaven. I DO believe, however, that all teachings needed for salvation COMES FROM the Catholic Church.

I was always struck by the passage in the movie Braveheart when Wallace is brought before the Royal Magistrate accused of treason against “his” King, Longshanks:

William Wallace: Never, in my whole life, have I ever sworn allegiance to him.
Royal Magistrate: It matters not. He is your King.

People can CLAIM Benedict XVI is not “the pope” all they want - that does not change the fact that he is 🙂
 
I clicked into this thread and found this comment more than just provocative. We have to be very careful here and can’t throw around unqualified statements like this lest we become like the Pharisees and scribes.

The belief that only members of the Catholic Church can enter heaven is incorrect. At least one priest has been excommunicated in the 20th century for teaching this. The Magesterium has taught infalliby that those who are “Ignorant” of Christ and his Church and members of other faiths can be saved.

The Magesterium teaches that as the Catholic Church alone posesses the fullness of truth, when a Baptist Pastor or evan a Islamic Mullah teaches some truth, they are teaching Catholic truth. All grace is “Catholic” grace. All forgiveness “Catholic” forgiveness. All truth is “Catholic” truth. To be clear, the Magesterium also states that those who willfully reject the Catholic Church are at a grave disadvantage but the blanket statement “There is not salvation outside the Church” without qualification or explanation is simply not true.
"though it be not the Catholic Church itself that hands them the bread of truth and grace, yet it is Catholic bread that they eat." And when they eat of it, “without knowing it or willing it” they are "incorporated in the supernatural substance of the Church."
The Catechism addresses those who are “Ignorant”
Every man who is ignorant of the gospel of Christ and of his Church but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity (CCC 1260).
Refernece** DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH - LUMEN GENTIUM**

Also see “No Salvation Outside the Church” on this website.

-Tim-
Salvation is through Jesus Christ and since and the Catholic Church are one in the same the statement there is no salvation outside the Church is absolutely correct. We must be careful not to confuse salvation through the church with the requirement that one be be a member of the Catholic Church. One can indeed reach heaven without being a member of the Catholic Church but his salvation is indeed through the Church
 
Salvation is through Jesus Christ and since and the Catholic Church are one in the same the statement there is no salvation outside the Church is absolutely correct. We must be careful not to confuse salvation through the church with the requirement that one be be a member of the Catholic Church. One can indeed reach heaven without being a member of the Catholic Church but his salvation is indeed through the Church
Something like aliens in America enjoying the protection of the law.
 
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