Should Latin mass be brought back?

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Summorum Pontificum is also a pretty interesting read, Father.
 
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Latin is the basis for the English Language (and also the Spanish Language).

Learning Latin makes students (people who study) better English speakers AND better Spanish speakers.
 
Don_Ruggero said:
There was never only Mass in Latin.

There were and always are the Churches of the East with their own liturgical traditions. These are the 23 sui juris Catholic Churches of the East who celebrate Eucharist, as we would articulate it, with diversity according to their proper languages and in a manner informed by their culture…and it was most assuredly not in Latin or Western Europe.

The East is far more in keeping with the moment of the Church’s founding and also more vividly expresses the venerable Ancient Church at her beginning and earliest generations as well as her practices.

Those Catholics who wish to regress in time can beyond beyond mere Latin and celebrate Eucharist in the Greek of the Apostolic and Sub-Apostolic Church with the Melkites or, even better, in Aramaic with the Maronites…then they could hear the language that Jesus Himself spoke.
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This line of argument implies some value in maintaining ancient rites. (other than the TLM). Of course TLM is not the only ancient rite. But some of the immediate followers of the apostles spoke it, and likely used it some of the time in their Masses, and some of the Early Church Fathers too.

The fact that it is not the only ancient rite does not make it dispensable, anymore than the Maronite or Byzantine rites are dispensable. The comment about those who wish to “regress in time” is appalling. Any liturgy is, in part, a regression in time (i. e. the crucifixion, resurrection) just as a Seder meal is, in part, a regression in time to earlier events. Would you say it is just an option to recall the crucifixion at Mass? A permitted regression?

What would be the purpose of liturgy designed for those who do not wish to regress in time? Something where people worship the people and events of 2017?
 
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I agree with you, Father, that the Maronite liturgy is a wonderful treasure of the Catholic faith (and the other Eastern churches as well, but the Maronite is the only Eastern Catholic church I have personally attended).

However, I do not think that they would care to be told that they were ‘regressing in time’ (and if you tell Catholics that 'they can regress in time and can go beyond ‘mere’ Latin, then I think that you are indeed stating that Eastern Catholics are regressive by having such 'ancient liturgies). I also wonder why it is so wonderful that the Eastern Church is so ‘close’ to the ‘early Christians’ by their use of Greek and Aramaic, but that somehow Latin is ‘just nothing’. Um, exactly how ‘close to the founding of Christianity’ is the English language, the German language, or even Spanish or French? Isn’t the Latin language and its use, even its use as the vernacular, dated far more closely to ‘the founding times’ than our current vernacular(s)?

I’m not criticizing, I’m just curious as to why in one case a couple of languages (and Jesus probably did speak Latin as well as Aramaic and Greek) that were spoken by the earliest Christians are seen as praiseworthy in liturgy, yet Latin is not.

How many Maronites speak Aramaic ‘at home’ outside the liturgy? How many Greeks speak more than rudimentary Greek ‘at home in the family’ but consider English their primary language?
 
Don_Ruggero said:
Those Catholics who wish to regress in time can beyond beyond mere Latin and celebrate Eucharist in the Greek of the Apostolic and Sub-Apostolic Church with the Melkites or, even better, in Aramaic with the Maronites…then they could hear the language that Jesus Himself spoke.
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Father, I realize English is not your native language, and I appreciate that you probably speak a few languages, unlike me. You likely intended a different kind of phrase than “wish to regress in time”, so I don’t mean to jump on that phrase. However, it does strike a chord in many people, as expressing an attitude, not yours I am sure, but others involved in liturgical abuses.

Fr. George Rutler once gave a talk on EWTN, where he discussed visiting an unfamiliar church to say Mass. Someone came into the sacristy beforehand and asked him what will be the theme of the Mass today? He answered it would be the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. She said, OK, then when the Mass began, the organist announced to the people that the theme of today’s Mass is the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

My thought is that it was nice the parish was (still) willing to accept that regress theme, for this week. Maybe last week the theme was Global Warming, or the need for Safer Sidewalks, or Suicide Prevention. Perhaps next week the theme will be something else CNN will draw to our attention. I suspect that parish would find the TLM too regressive because of its focus on past events, not just once in awhile.
 
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“Theme” can be easily interpreted as " tema" in Spanish.
And " tema" is also related to music.
For example " Qué tema es este? " is asking the name of the song playing.
See,those loose stories,Commenter,can lead anywhere. Especially to you in US with all your diversity…
And as you are trying to do here,understand the meaning of Father’s words,and his ESL,people out there in US do as well. And that makes life there much easier thanks to the effort of the locals too. .In conversation and good will.
 
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commenter said:
Fr. George Rutler once gave a talk on EWTN, where he discussed visiting an unfamiliar church to say Mass. Someone came into the sacristy beforehand and asked him what will be the theme of the Mass today? He answered it would be the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. She said, OK, then when the Mass began, the organist announced to the people that the theme of today’s Mass is the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Jesus Christ.
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graciew said:
“Theme” can be easily interpreted as " tema" in Spanish.
And " tema" is also related to music.
For example " Qué tema es este? " is asking the name of the song playing.
See,those loose stories,Commenter,can lead anywhere. (end)
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In my 1970s parish, they would announce the THEME for today’s Mass is “Salt”. Then the music, the visuals, the communion meditation, homily etc would all focus on spiritual ramifications of Salt. You would be given a salt packet to hold.

Maybe next week’s theme would be Nuclear Disarmament, or Loneliness, or the Need for Faithful Dissent, or Turtles. If the Crucifixion or Sacrifice of the Mass happened to occur to someone at those Masses, it was accidental.

In my diocese those liturgical abuses are not gone but greatly reduced, and linger only among a few elderly liberals. The OF can be, and usually is, offered up with the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in mind. The EF seems less vulnerable to abuse. It makes explicit the realities that are implied, and sometimes quite evident in the OF, depending on the priest. The recent English translation is a big improvement.
 
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The problem truly is that the very rubrics of the Novus Ordo give very wide latitude to celebrants to indulge their creative whims and to impose them on captive audiences.
 
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Thank you ,Commenter.
Everything has been so very much simple,normal and away from but simply a Mass that it is difficult to figure something problematic.
I have no idea of what this " Salt" thing is about ,except for what you have told me ,so I thought it was the music.
I appreciate your explanation.Thanks again. Have a great week.
 
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I like how the end of the EF always ends with the first chapter of the Gospel of John.
 
English is a Germanic language, not a Latin-based language. However there are many English words that have Latin roots.
 
Mark121359 said:
Pope Francis’ document “Magnum Principium” allow even more of these celebrants to indulge in their creative whims
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That is exactly the point of the document. We already know how much the progressives despise the 2011 translations. Expect those to be tossed, ASAP. Get ready for “gender neutral” prayers. And if they revive the 1973 translations, expect that even the Words of Consercration will be tampered with again (“pro multis” (for many) translated as “for all”). Nothing would surprise me at this point.
 
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Don_Ruggero said:
Those Catholics who wish to regress in time can beyond beyond mere Latin and celebrate Eucharist in the Greek of the Apostolic and Sub-Apostolic Church with the Melkites or, even better, in Aramaic with the Maronites…then they could hear the language that Jesus Himself spoke.
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I’ve actually been meaning to do this – there’s a Maronite church in my neighborhood, just a couple of blocks from my parish church. One of these Sundays I’ll go to Mass there.
 
You will find it, I trust, a lovely and moving experience. I have concelebrated with them…I don’t know how many times over these many years…and the moment of pronouncing the institution narrative in Aramaic is always deeply affecting, even if they have to rehearse me so kindly and gently whilst I am vesting. Thankfully, the Presider and the other concelebrants surrounding me sustain me in my pronunciation as my facility in Aramaic is regrettably not where I would wish it to be, to be arrived at this stage of life and priesthood. But we have other things to do, when the press of duty is placed on our shoulders.
 
Salutations,
I’m glad your experience had all parishioners repeating Latin responsorial phrases. In my church,
Rosaries were present in every pew. Some said responsorial responses, some did not. We had a choir singing. The congregation did not. If a song was to be sung, we whispered. Meaning 40% participation.
Vatican II was guardedly accepted w a grumble w change. Congregation began to sing more. They participated more.
I was deep into the Latin and going to be a nun but was pleased w the effects of change on congregation
We have a Spanish mass every Sun. We have a French mass once per month. Have a Latin mass once per month! Go forward, not backwards. Furthermore, Pope John XXIII opened the doors for the HOLY SPIRIT TO INTERVENE. God inspired changes. Don’t mess w Holy Spirit, pls.
In Christ’s love
Tweedlealice
P.S. The reason for less attendance at Mass is definitely related to our scandal. Latin won’t change that. The priests being Holy will.
 
Thank you for your sympathy in the reality of switching from one language to another. It is true that there are a moments when I will not remember the right turn of phrase – or there will be some phrase in vogue that I don’t know or never learned.

In this case, “regress in time” is exactly the phrase I wanted, for it encapsulated the attitude of those lamentable people for whom I offered the indult Mass in the era of Quattuor abhinc annos.

They petitioned the bishop for provision of the vetus ordo with the promise that they would fill any space he offered. In the end, they could not even fill the extern chapel of a small group of Religious. Their thoughts about what the presence that the vetus ordo would be and do were fantasy.

We had far more at the cathedral attending the novus ordo Mass in Latin that was said every Sunday.

These people made enemies everywhere. It was astonishing. They insulted the charming Religious who gave them gracious hospitality and so – not surprisingly – after one particular incident, the Superior informed these ungrateful people that their invitation, which was a not inconsiderable inconvenience to accommodate every week, was not going to be continued – given the insults being spread which had reached their ears and that the people were forced to admit.

It is an attitude I have seen across a long time as well as many instances exhibited by…a certain sort.

It is an attitude I hope all bishops and priests have the chance to see clearly – in order to know it, recognise it for what it is, and to understand it…and, moreover, that they never forget it.
 
I am very sorry to find this additional comment from you. I had a different understanding of you from our previous interactions. Apparently I was mistaken.

I refer you to the answer I posted above in response to what you wrote previously. I think it serves as a fitting terminus to our interaction.
 
I have concelebrated with the Maronites and with the Melkites. The laity there are not regressives at all. Quite the opposite. They are examples of full, conscious, and active participation in the Divine Liturgy…not silent spectators at a whispered anaphora…silent except for “Nobis quoque peccatoribus,” the only words said audibly in the vetus ordo’s anaphora until the end.

The Maronite laity are far more engaged in participation in the synaxis than laity in the occidental liturgy of the novus ordo…and certainly than in the vetus ordo of the Roman Rite.

The Council Fathers spoke of the need to discard as well as to renew and to purify the liturgy of the Roman Rite…which was urgently needed and beautifully accomplished.

Far from being regressives, the Maronites have been seeking to purify themselves of Latinisations and what the influences they suffered under Latin hegemony…which is to be deplored for the injuries it did to them and to their proper traditions.

It has been a joy to collaborate with them as well as to see within the College of Bishops the acknowledgement of the need to to make things right regarding the Churches of the East

I agree with Father Mitch Pacwa who tells those who cling to the vetus ordo that they are far better served simply by going all the way back to Aramaic

As one who blossomed as part of the liturgical movement of such happy memory, I could not praise adequately the novus ordo. Every time I say the third Eucharistic Prayer, I cannot do so without remembering and blessing the memory of dear Father Cipriano Vagaggini, as but one name and contribution to evoke

Conversely, I remember when I received the mandate to offer the indult Mass under Quattuor abhinc annos, given that I was a professor of liturgy and the bishop determined I was the best one to do it, after him. I remember when my mandate ended and I handed the indult back to him. He asked me if I did not want to keep it as a memento. As I handed back to him, suggesting he shred it or burn it as I would never need it again, unless he directly commanded me to do it

I have helped some of the young priests who wanted to know how to celebrate using the 1962 missal and I was happy to help. It seems to have been a passing fancy, once they experienced what it actually was to be celebrant of it

Having taught Latin, I do say Mass in Latin – but only in the novus ordo…reformed and renewed, as mandated by the Council

When I am in the monastic cloister and I pray in the quire, of course I pray in Latin and using the monastic breviary. Alone? Using the breviary of the reformed Liturgy of the Hours in my own language…well one of my own languages. Not Latin. I remember Blessed Pope Paul VI being somewhat astonished at how quickly we all availed ourselves of snatching the revised breviaries in our own vernacular. It was the liturgy in our own languages

I occasionally use the old liturgical books to fulfill a request for a specific blessing. If a priest of one of the Ecclesia Dei communities asked for Confession, I would certainly accommodate that in the vetus ordo. It is still in my memory, after all

But otherwise? No. Never
 
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