Should Latin mass be brought back?

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I don’t know if that means much. When JPII issued the ED, Cardinal Bernadin of all people helped set up 4 Latin Masses in the Archdiocese of Chicago, including St John Cantius, probably one of the most successful traditional parishes in the country. Go figure.
 
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It is claimed that church attendance started dropping in the 50’s after a nice runup of perhaps 100 years or so. Maybe it was a coincidence but the decline started about the same time the reforms in the Mass were being implemented with Holy Week changes in 1955. It doesn’t seem major in today’s context but it must be remembered at one time the entire Holy Week was very heavily attended.
 
ProVobis said:
It is claimed that church attendance started dropping in the 50’s after a nice runup of perhaps 100 years or so. Maybe it was a coincidence but the decline started about the same time the reforms in the Mass were being implemented with Holy Week changes in 1955
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I don’t know about that. Protestant church attendance in the United States was declining at the same time, yet they never had masses at all, much less reforms in the mass.

There are social reasons that transcend at least in the United States.
 
Perhaps part of the reason (or reasons, because there is more than one reason for decline in religious attendance across the board) is that Catholics in that very same time period of the 1950s and 1960s had become ‘assimilated’ with Protestants. IOW, perhaps some of the decline in Catholic attendance came about as more Catholics became more like the Protestants, and the factors that had caused Protestants to decline in attendance and practice thus affected the Catholics as well. Kind of like a domino effect.
 
The Church was well aware of things going on in the background. In 1947, the US Supreme Court created a fiction in Everson v. Board of Education, 330 U.S. 1, where it stated: “The First Amendment has erected a wall between church and state. That wall must be kept high and impregnable. We could not approve the slightest breach.” In 1948, two Cardinals proposed the idea of a Second Vatican Council to Pope Pius XII (Ernesto Ruffini and Alfredo Ottaviani). And they put it before Pope John XXIII in late 1958.
 
I’m not sure of what ‘this’ you mean. I might not have been clear (I was there also), but in the 50s and 60s some Catholics were becoming protestantized not in worship but in becoming more accepted as social equals to protestants and starting to become more equal in social practices outside worship, such as greater education, less job discrimination, more homogeneity as opposed to an earlier Catholic ‘identity’. and that made it easier to focus on our similarities and more kind of an indifferentism.
 
There was an oath against Modernism. There was a pledge in the 1950s to not see certain immoral/JD movies. There was a Legion of Decency that was started by the Church and which expanded to include other Christians. The rise of the post-War radicals and Beats or Beatniks who viewed life differently was going to grow into more social problems in the 1960s. Rebels without a cause. People lived in communities. Neighbors, most of them, were real neighbors. We all didn’t go to the same Churches. But to say some sort of Protestant influence gradually spread into the Church/society? There was no mention of that. At the time, there were sober considerations about marriage between Catholics and non-Catholics. I was not even aware of what Protestants believed in any real detail until recently. If it was 1959, and I had a daughter who wanted to marry a Protestant or other non-Catholic Christian, I would be obligated to find out what Protestants believe as opposed to Catholics. It seems as if the idea going around is, “Hi. I’m a Protestant. Let’s talk.” No, definitely not. I didn’t know what religion some of my neighbors belonged to. Aside from marriage and certain social situations, we had rules to follow, both from our parents and the Church. God was more important in our daily lives. And material things? Not so much. I always wanted bongos but couldn’t afford them.
 
R_H_Benson said:
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Don_Ruggero:
I did not know, however, you were a conspiracy theorist
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10 years ago, if anyone told me that in 2017 divorced and remarried people would be permitted to receive Holy Communion, that Rome would issue a stamp commemorating the heresiarch Martin Luther and the “Reformation”, that we would have a “Pope-Emeritus” who still wears a white cassock and lives in the Vatican, that the Pope would be making a push against clerical celibacy and towards the ordination of women, that the Pope would have issued an encyclical dedicated to climate change while 9 out of 10 Catholics don’t ever go to confession, etc., etc., I would have accused that person of being a “conspiracy theorist”, too. I’ve since shed the naivete. Nothing surprises me anymore.
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Amen to everything stated in this excellent post!
 
stpurl said:
Perhaps part of the reason (or reasons, because there is more than one reason for decline in religious attendance across the board) is that Catholics in that very same time period of the 1950s and 1960s had become ‘assimilated’ with Protestants. IOW, perhaps some of the decline in Catholic attendance came about as more Catholics became more like the Protestants,
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Protestants tended to be a lot more faithful in church attendance as well, 60 years ago.

I don’t think it was Catholics imitating the Protestants, but both groups following societal trends together
 
Augustinian said:
Protestants tended to be a lot more faithful in church attendance as well, 60 years ago.

I don’t think it was Catholics imitating the Protestants, but both groups following societal trends together
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Yes. The societal changes happened before VII and continued after it was given to the church.

But the changes were already well established in the roots of society
 
I strongly disagree. I was there. The changes were part of a coordinated attack against the Church and society, including the entire West. It started right after the end of Vatican II. That’s when these groups began to establish themselves. I remember when the Hippies and radicals began to first appear in our neighborhood: “Have sex with your girlfriend.” “Live with her.” “Smoke dope and use other illegal drugs.” Get on The Pill. Go on Welfare. I saw all this happening and some of us were caught off guard by the wolves preaching their new gospel. Ignore mom and dad. Marriage means nothing. The Church means nothing. Read books about Eastern mysticism. Have lots of sex with anybody. The radicals began their attack inside the Church starting in the late 1960s.


You can’t read the whole article without paying but what you can see is enough.
 
Well yah. Protestantism is not one. Anglican and Lutheran Churches have many similarities to Catholic Mass.
It’s more the reformed Calvinist traditions who are much different.
 
R_H_Benson said:
The FSSP seminaries are packed to the brim. They are to the point where they regrettably have to reject or “wait list” candidates because they don’t have enough room. Remarkable men those seminaries are ordaining. There are currently over 90 men studying for the priesthood at Our Lady of Guadalupe Seminary in Nebraska for the FSSP.
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The FSSP seminaries? After 30 years of existence, there are only two of them in the entire world. One in Wigratzbad, Germany and the other in Nebraska, United States.

For readers of this Forum, let us put into clear perspective the relative numbers.

The FSSP has one seminary in the United States and, I gather, 90 seminarians.
The United States has over 180 seminaries and 3,520 major seminarians.

The FSSP relates on their website that the total number of seminarians for the world is 150 [21 transitional deacons and 129 non-deacon seminarians]

The number of major seminarians in the world is tallied at 116,843

I admit to having no first hand knowledge of the seminary in Nebraska. Or, for that matter, the American state of Nebraska…so I will focus on Europe, of which I can speak with first hand knowledge and experience.

The FSSP relates “At present the International Seminary of St. Peter, together with a separate building constructed by the diocese, houses over 60 young men from Germany, France, Austria, Switzerland, Denmark, Poland, Spain, Portugal, Brasil, Chile and Columbia who are preparing to become priests”. That is to say 11 Nations.

Less than 6 seminarians per country.

To be clear, any speech of “bursting at the seams” statistics from any entities under pastoral provision of the Ecclesia Dei Commission accorded to this population attached to the pre-conciliar vetus ordo is what is myth. And in the analysis and determinations taking place at present, these myths need to be definitively repudiated by the actions of the Holy See.

The FSSP is an entity founded by the Holy See in 1988 to provide refuge for those of wished to remain faithful to the Roman Catholic Church and to leave the SSPX who because of the schismatic act of the excommunicated Marcel Lefebvre. Granting them this refuge was a tremendous magnanimous act of paternal kindness and immense charity by Pope Saint John Paul II.

The Neocatechumenal Way, in contrast, was founded in 1964, in the midst of the Second Vatican Council and as a response to it. It promotes the renewal and reform of the Church that the Holy Spirit effected through the Church’s 21st ecumenical council.

The FSSP, in 29 years of existence, has two seminaries.
The Neocatechumenal Way, in 53 years of existence, has 100 seminaries.

www.catholicculture.org

Neocatechumenal Way now has 100 seminaries | News Headlines

A chief provider and curator of Catholic information on the web since 1996. Our editorial voice, always faithful to the teachings of the Church, assists and inspires Catholic clergy and laity.
www.catholicculture.org www.catholicculture.org
 
And yet our Lord spoke of going after the one sheep. All of this talk of how insignificant traditionalists are because of numbers seems quite foreign to the Gospel. Note, I am not saying traditionalists are lost like the sheep of the story…quite the contrary. I just think it’s really un-Christian to bash groups that are small.
 
Lmab451 said:
The Chief Exorcist of the Vatican has repeatedly said that the devil hates the use of Latin. I’m all for not only defending against evil but also attacking it back
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Could you give a source for this?
 
Hi,
It was never referred to as a dialogue mass. We were military. Different churches in states still had responses. Military chapels had responses. All Latin masses, from 6yo to 15yo, had responses.
My comments, previously, about saying rosaries, daydreaming and low participation in Latin responses, were not my own thoughts. They were reasons given by the church (in my area), that we needed to change to English. That way the Mystical
Body of Christ would pray together.
In Christ’s love
Tweedlealice
 
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