Should Latin mass be brought back?

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stpurl said:
I did not do so to be offensive.
You COULD have sent me a PM if you found it so.

Analogies by nature are not perfect.

But talk about offensive, your judgmental comments (and you did not even address the majority of my post nor did you make any comment about my ‘offensiveness’, but only added a snarky, “sorry to disappoint, no liturgical dance”) are right up there.

If I offended anybody ELSE, it was purely unintentional and not aimed at denigrating those with hearing impairments. Please feel free to PM me so as not to derail the thread and if anybody would like to address the idea of how it might be hard for people who had no experience of something for 40 plus years to not only desire it, but even learn about, let us go on with that at least.
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Given the extreme lack of knowledge of people into the Deaf Community, a public post correcting your absolutely crazy rendition of sign-Mass was VERY necessary. I’m going to guess you probably didn’t know that ASL/BSL/whatever language sign language Masses existed. You pulled a Mass out of thin air relying on the most bizarre things you could think of, apparently, which were a LEGITMATE LANGUAGE and incredibly illicit liturgical dance.

How is that not frustrating to a group of people regularly are dismissed both by society and by the Church?

You ventured into territory you knew nothing about and didn’t even gander a glace at Google to make a point.

That is very, very dangerous.
 
You are going Old Testament on me? I will stick with Jesus on this .

Like TLM, nothing wrong with it as long as it is not a distraction viewed as more important than the real meaning of the Mass.
 
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Debbie_Kono said:
I would reference you to the link I posted in #507 for a different POV.
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Which I completely disagree with.

Have you ever been to a monastic OF Mass in Gregorian chant? I attend one twice a week.

Go to Mass at Solesmes and get back to us.
 
I was trying to make an analogy.

Your guess is offensive.

What makes you think I know nothing of the deaf? For all you know, I might have hearing issues myself.

Look, you’re offended. I SAID I didn’t mean to be offensive, but I also am not some kind of stupid nasty ignoramus like you’re painting me to be.

So guess what, I’m a tad offended at your intransigence.

Please stop trying to put your false ‘assumptions’ out there as ‘what stpurl did or thought’ when they are NOT.

Address what I actually do and say, and not your incorrect assumptions that you think I must have MEANT.
 
UM, Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament.
Are you saying that one might not appreciate beautiful vestments?
How about stained glass?
Flowers?
Not saying that they are something we ‘have to have’, but exactly what are they detracting from?
 
OraLabora said:
Which I completely disagree with.

Have you ever been to a monastic OF Mass in Gregorian chant? I attend one twice a week.

Go to Mass at Solesmes and get back to us.
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The article was I am sure comparing a typical OFM and EFM…not a Mass at Solesmes, which I am guessing is also superior to SOME TYPICAL OF Masses. I’m a newbie and never heard of Solesmes. Is there a website where I could see if such a Mass is available in the Detroit area?
 
I was saying that the people I know into TLM are ALL ABOUT the vestments, the chalices, and what used to be th “Highness” and who all presided, the fiddle back chasuble, plenty of incense, bells and organ.
 
stpurl said:
I was trying to make an analogy.

Your guess is offensive.

What makes you think I know nothing of the deaf? For all you know, I might have hearing issues myself.

Look, you’re offended. I SAID I didn’t mean to be offensive, but I also am not some kind of stupid nasty ignoramus like you’re painting me to be.

So guess what, I’m a tad offended at your intransigence.

Please stop trying to put your false ‘assumptions’ out there as ‘what stpurl did or thought’ when they are NOT.

Address what I actually do and say, and not your incorrect assumptions that you think I must have MEANT.
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Hearing difficulties don’t give you insight to Deaf Culture. (and there’s a reason that’s capitalized FYI)

Your analogy was offensive even if it was simply done in ignorance. It was also associating a very valid and hard-fought Mass with liturgical dance.

We all know that one is an illicit action that carries no value in the Catholic Church. You roped the two together, debasing and mocking both. You can’t see it because you insist it was “just an analogy”.

That’d be like someone roping TLM together with an illicit action like a priest dressing as a clown to make a point of how ridiculous it was and comparing that to the OF. People would SEE RED.

It really doesn’t matter if you selected sign language for your little bizarre story through malice or ignorance. It was completely inappropriate to make a mockery of it by adding an illicit action and trying to make a point.
 
Somebody asked earlier how many priests there are in the Catholic Church.

The total worldwide number of Clergy in the Catholic Church:

~5,200 Bishops
~415,000 Priests
~44,000 Deacons

It really shows the MASSIVE lack of Clergy we have in the Church today.

Not even 500,000 total Clergy trying to serve some 1,300,000,000 Catholics.

That means less than 0.05% of Catholics are clergy. IMO, we should certainly have at least 0.1 percent of our population ordained.

At a minimum we should have about 10,000 Bishops, 1,000,000 Priests and 250,000 Deacons.

The Church has a SEVERE shortage in clergymen that gets worse each day, which is one of the reasons why I support the Roman Church both altering it’s discipline regarding married Priests, and should loosen restrictions on the permanent Diaconate.
 
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Today is the Feast of Christ the King for the EF Masses…perhaps some hearts will be changed regarding the beauty of “vestments, the chalices, and “Highness” and who all presided, the fiddle back chasuble, plenty of incense, bells and organ” when the same Feast day comes around in November for OF Masses…I hope so.
 
Debbie_Kono said:
The article was I am sure comparing a typical OFM and EFM…not a Mass at Solesmes, which I am guessing is also superior to SOME TYPICAL OF Masses. I’m a newbie and never heard of Solesmes. Is there a website where I could see if such a Mass is available in the Detroit area?
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Solesmes is a Benedictine monastery in France. It is head of the Solesmes Congregation, of which the monastery I’m an oblate of belongs.

For well over 100 years their monks have been charged by the Vatican with the task of studying, preserving and applying Gregorian chant, for which it has created the official Gregorian chant books for both the pre- and post- Conciliar liturgies (Mass and Divine Office).

Benedictines, especially those of the Solesmes Congregation, do a beautiful OF Mass in chant. That completely disproves the notion that the form of the Mass is somehow deficient. It is the execution that is often a problem, as it also often was when the EF Mass was the only Mass. If the EF were to become the only mass again, what makes you think somehow the priests who are irreverent in the OF would somehow magically start doing a perfect Liturgy?
 
And the Gregorian chant is sung in Latin, correct? And what about the Mass in chant? Is that done in the vernacular? I don’t understand.

But regardless, here in the US we don’t have that option. And maybe, just maybe if those priests who are irreverent in the OF would gain some graces if they started offering the EF Masses. 😉
 
OraLabora said:
Benedictines, especially those of the Solesmes Congregation, do a beautiful OF Mass in chant. That completely disproves the notion that the form of the Mass is somehow deficient.
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Not really. You can sing as much Gregorian Chant as you like as beautifully as you like, but that doesn’t remedy the theological and doctrinal ambiguity inherent in the New Liturgy. Anyone who compares the offertory prayers of the Traditional Mass with the offertory of the New Mass can see this with ease. The offertory is the most glaring example, but there are many others: entire prayers were removed on absurd pretenses (Judica Me, Suscipe Sancta Trinitas, Placeat tibi sancta Trinitas, etc.) , far fewer references of the Holy Trinity, far fewer rubrical reverences of the Blessed Sacrament, and hardly any reference to the sacrificial nature of the Mass excepting only the Suscipiat (which several of the creators of the New Mass also wanted to axe from the Liturgy!) and the off chance that the priest actually elects to use the venerable and ancient Roman Canon instead of the “Dewfall” Prayer AKA Eucharistic Prayer II (itself of highly questionable origin!).
 
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I am sorry if you see red.
I am sorry if you think what I said was bizarre.
As for the rest, I find it sad that you keep on name-calling. I’m sure you don’t mean to come across this way but what you said didn’t even really offend me (though it did) so much as it hurt me. It was so incredibly and loudly 'you horrid mocking fool" to someone who meant nothing of the kind. And I repeat, you should have sent a PM. Now that you had to be ‘out there’ and you have to just keep going on, and on, and ON about it, I’m taking this one opportunity to say, once again, that I had absolutely no intention ever to mock any person and the whole point (which you insist on disregarding) was that of pointing out that to persons who have never experienced something for more than 40 years, it can be hard to not only have them want to experience it, but even for them to know about it.

And that is all I have to say about this from now on.
You can keep on saying whatever you feel you have to say.
My conscience is clear, my intentions were pure, and I choose to move on.
Wishing you God’s peace.
 
stpurl said:
I am sorry if you see red.
I am sorry if you think what I said was bizarre.
As for the rest, I find it sad that you keep on name-calling. I’m sure you don’t mean to come across this way but what you said didn’t even really offend me (though it did) so much as it hurt me. It was so incredibly and loudly 'you horrid mocking fool" to someone who meant nothing of the kind. And I repeat, you should have sent a PM. Now that you had to be ‘out there’ and you have to just keep going on, and on, and ON about it, I’m taking this one opportunity to say, once again, that I had absolutely no intention ever to mock any person and the whole point (which you insist on disregarding) was that of pointing out that to persons who have never experienced something for more than 40 years, it can be hard to not only have them want to experience it, but even for them to know about it.

And that is all I have to say about this from now on.
You can keep on saying whatever you feel you have to say.
My conscience is clear, my intentions were pure, and I choose to move on.
Wishing you God’s peace.
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I’m out there because what you said was offensive to a large number of people who are in the Deaf Community.

If you wanted to take this to PM you very well could have apologized and removed your post. You did not. To put the PM need on me is just silly.

Like I said before, it didn’t matter if you did it in ignorance or malice. You still did it. And again, you very well know liturgical dancing is illicit. You could have made any comparison in the world without bringing in illicit actions. That takes it from comparison to mockery. There is nothing illicit in the OF. Nothing.
 
ProVobis said:
I like that quote. Going to watch the end of the game. Later.
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I wonder, is science also “supernatural” to those who can’t do the math?

But that is another question for another thread somewhere.
 
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Debbie_Kono said:
And the Gregorian chant is sung in Latin, correct? And what about the Mass in chant? Is that done in the vernacular? I don’t understand.

But regardless, here in the US we don’t have that option. And maybe, just maybe if those priests who are irreverent in the OF would gain some graces if they started offering the EF Masses.
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Gregorian chant is sung in Latin with some Greek. The rest of the Mass is in French plainchant, though the local Benedictine women do everything in Latin.

You most certainly do have that option in the US. Many places still use chant. And if not you can do what I did, join a schola, or start one. We rotate around different parishes in the archdiocese in our small Canadian city.
 
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