Should Latin mass be brought back?

[Mark121359]

A book could easily be written to explain how the traditionalists have been the cause of their own miasma.

Incomparable to the carnage that liberals have, and still are wreaking on the Church today. The damage to souls is incalculable. One would have to be blind to miss this. Either that, or they’re actually in favor of this.

 

[Walking_Home]

There are some going off the edge in one direction — others in the other direction. Both are going off.
I’d say “telling/convincing” members of the flock the OF is a sin – yea – that damages the soul too.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

As I pointed out to Father, with respect, I believe that his accusation is unfounded

Your not really addressing it. Your just brushing it off.

Likewise, I noted how, since the Roman Breviary makes ample use of the term “heretic” to refer to the Protestants, I am entirely justified to use it as well.

How obscure. It’s peculiar that you are throwing, what are considered insults today, from such shaky ground. And, you are breaking forum rules in order to do so.

Certainly you aren’t implying that the Divine Office itself is in violation of the directives of “The Directory for the Application of Principles and Norms on Ecumenism”? Or maybe you are? Do you hold these “directives” in higher esteem than the Sacred Liturgy?

I don’t know anything about this. I don’t care to know, as I am not a member of the clergy. What business do you have telling a priest what the Liturgy does and does not espouse? Are you also a member of the clergy?

 

[exnihilo]

For instance, at a recent conference a speaker refused to concede there now are 20 decades in the Rosary. They tend to regard everything coming from the Vatican as questionable.

The rosary isn’t an official liturgy of the Church. These new mysteries were offered as a suggestion. I say them myself, but I can also understand someone using just the older mysteries. I can understand this especially since what mysteries you say in the old format work well with the day of week and season.

There might be excessive suspicion of the Vatican. Then again there may be good reason to be suspicious.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Please don’t speak uncharitably about priests. It violates the forum rules.

You say that? After what you have written?

 

[Don_Ruggero]

The rosary isn’t an official liturgy of the Church. These new mysteries were offered as a suggestion. I say them myself, but I can also understand someone using just the older mysteries. I can understand this especially since what mysteries you say in the old format work well with the day of week and season.

There might be excessive suspicion of the Vatican. Then again there may be good reason to be suspicious.

But the issue is that the Pope CHANGED the Rosary. He can do this because of his supreme power of governance and jurisdiction. He can create a new sacramental, alter a sacramental, or suppress a sacramental.

One can prefer not to use a set of mysteries. One need never say the Rosary at all. However, the “traditionalists” and every Catholic is obligated to confess that the Pope has this power and that they are also obliged to utter submission to the Church’s authority, concerning which there is no appeal and there is no recourse when it concerns the Vicar of Christ.

This is often poorly understood by the lay faithful. The Rosary is what it is because the authorities have established it as such.

 

[exnihilo]

It is my understanding that the Pope merely offered the Luminous mysteries and the new pattern as something people can do. So I’m not sure how he changed the rosary since it can be said with or without these mysteries.

It seems to me he just added an option. I don’t know if anyone is saying he can’t add a set of mysteries. If so they would be wrong.

 

[Debbie_Kono]

Shortly after my conversion I found my grandmother’s St. Joseph Continuous Sunday Missal. It was a gift from my grandfather in 1961…I didn’t even know she or they had one time practiced the faith. The prayers are so beautiful. I did and still do feel so blessed that my mother had kept this and now it is mine. I often pray the Consecration of the Human Race to the Sacred Heart of Jesus. I know part of the reason this prayer so resonates with me is because I never practiced the Catholic faith I was baptized in, but started my journey in a Protestant faith. My point in all this is to ask Father Ruggero; do we Catholics no longer fervently pray for the conversion of lost souls? Part of my Missal’s prayer reads,

"You are King, O Lord, not only of the faithful who have never forsaken You, but also of the prodigal children who have abandoned You; grant that they may quickly return to their Father’ house lest they die of wretchedness and hunger.

You are King of those who are deceived by erroneous opinions, or whom discord keeps aloof; call them back to the harbor of truth and unity of faith, so that soon there may be but one flock and one Shepherd.

Again, this so resonates with me because it WAS me and I fear for my family and friends who are all practicing a false Christianity (and NOT receiving the True Holy Eucharist) or not practicing any faith at all. Father, aren’t those who are deceived by erroneous opinions in grave danger? Especially in this day and age with instant information at our fingertips.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Liturgical texts are promulgated by the competent ecclesiastical authority…which can withdraw, alter, modify or suppress them.

Liturgical texts most assuredly are revised when they no longer express the mind of the Church. The Bishops of England and Wales well understood this when they advised the Holy See that even the revised prayer for Good Friday in the vetus ordo is a source of problem and is in need of being revisited.

http://catholicherald.co.uk/news/20...uld-be-updated-say-england-and-wales-bishops/

How fortunate that the Number 2 for the CDWDS is precisely the Archbishop so renowned for liturgy in the United Kingdom. Pope Francis has brought him to Rome to help him…and to provide needed assistance to the Prefect of that Congregation.

I thank you again for bringing to my mind the need for this particular facet concerning the breviary to be highlighted in an upcoming text. You have done an invaluable service and it was Providential that you said this to me at this very moment.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

I don’t know if anyone is saying he can’t add a set of mysteries. If so they would be wrong.

That is precisely what a radical element is saying.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

The prayer is, of course, perfectly valid. What you quote is from The Consecration to the Sacred Heart of Jesus.

Of course we pray for those who are away from the Lord and have abandoned Him.

Of course we pray for those who are deceived by erroneous opinions.

If it were composed today, I suspect, we would also articulate prayer for those who are our sisters and brothers who belong to the one Body of Christ but with whom we have only an imperfect communion.

One of the points that is emphasised since the Council, in all Papal texts, is the need for all who belong to Christ to be converted. This is the only way forward to the unity – we will all have to change.

Pope Benedict expressed this when he visited in Erfurt those places associated with Martin Luther, whom the Catholic Church since 1983 proclaims “Witness of Jesus Christ” and “Witness of the Gospel”. Pope Benedict said

[T]he first and most important thing for ecumenism is that we keep in view just how much we have in common, not losing sight of it amid the pressure towards secularization – everything that makes us Christian in the first place and continues to be our gift and our task. It was the error of the Reformation period that for the most part we could only see what divided us and we failed to grasp existentially what we have in common in terms of the great deposit of sacred Scripture and the early Christian creeds. For me, the great ecumenical step forward of recent decades is that we have become aware of all this common ground, that we acknowledge it as we pray and sing together, as we make our joint commitment to the Christian ethos in our dealings with the world, as we bear common witness to the God of Jesus Christ in this world as our inalienable, shared foundation.

/…/ This is a key ecumenical task in which we have to help one another: developing a deeper and livelier faith. It is not strategy that saves us and saves Christianity, but faith – thought out and lived afresh; through such faith, Christ enters this world of ours, and with him, the living God. As the martyrs of the Nazi era brought us together and prompted that great initial ecumenical opening, so today, faith that is lived from deep within amid a secularized world is the most powerful ecumenical force that brings us together, guiding us towards unity in the one Lord. And we pray to him, asking that we may learn to live the faith anew, and that in this way we may then become one.

 

[Debbie_Kono]

we will all have to change.

What will Catholics have to change to?

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Pope Benedict said in Cologne after his election in 2005 [Part 1]

As a native of this Country, I am quite aware of the painful situation which the rupture of unity in the profession of the faith has entailed for so many individuals and families. This was one of the reasons why, immediately following my election as Bishop of Rome, I declared, as the Successor of the Apostle Peter, my firm commitment to making the recovery of full and visible Christian unity a priority of my Pontificate

In doing so, I wished consciously to follow in the footsteps of two of my great Predecessors: Pope Paul VI, who over 40 years ago signed the conciliar Decree on Ecumenism Unitatis Redintegratio, and Pope John Paul II, who made that Document the inspiration for his activity

In ecumenical dialogue Germany without a doubt has a place of particular importance. We are the Country where the Reformation began; however, Germany is also one of the countries where the ecumenical movement of the 20th century originated /…/

Together we can rejoice in the fact that the dialogue, with the passage of time, has brought about a renewed sense of our brotherhood and has created a more open and trusting climate between Christians belonging to the various Churches and Ecclesial Communities. My venerable Predecessor, in his Encyclical Ut Unum Sint (1995), saw this as an especially significant fruit of dialogue (cf. nn. 41ff.; 64)

I feel the fact that we consider one another brothers and sisters, that we love one another, that together we are witnesses of Jesus Christ, should not be taken so much for granted. I believe that this brotherhood is in itself a very important fruit of dialogue that we must rejoice in, continue to foster and to practice

Among Christians, fraternity is not just a vague sentiment, nor is it a sign of indifference to truth. As you just said, Bishop, it is grounded in the supernatural reality of the one Baptism which makes us all members of the one Body of Christ (cf. I Cor 12: 13; Gal 3: 28; Col 2: 12).

Together we confess that Jesus Christ is God and Lord; together we acknowledge him as the one mediator between God and man (cf. I Tm 2: 5), and we emphasize that together we are members of his Body (cf. Unitatis Redintegratio, n. 22; Ut Unum Sint, n. 42) /…/

It is the Lord’s commandment, but also the imperative of the present hour, to carry on dialogue with conviction at all levels of the Church’s life /…/

 

[Don_Ruggero]

[Part 2]

[T]his unity does not mean what could be called ecumenism of the return: that is, to deny and to reject one’s own faith history. Absolutely not! It does not mean uniformity in all expressions of theology and spirituality, in liturgical forms and in discipline /…/

To this end, dialogue has its own contribution to make. More than an exchange of thoughts, an academic exercise, it is an exchange of gifts (cf. Ut Unum Sint, n. 28), in which the Churches and the Ecclesial Communities can make available their own riches (cf. Lumen Gentium, nn. 8, 15; Unitatis Redintegratio, nn. 3, 14ff.; Ut Unum Sint, nn. 10-14) /…/

It is obvious that this dialogue can develop only in a context of sincere and committed spirituality. We cannot “bring about” unity by our powers alone. We can only obtain unity as a gift of the Holy Spirit. Consequently, spiritual ecumenism - prayer, conversion and the sanctification of life - constitutes the heart of the meeting and of the ecumenical movement (cf. Unitatis Redintegratio, n. 8; Ut Unum Sint, 15ff., 21, etc.). It could be said that the best form of ecumenism consists in living in accordance with the Gospel /…/

 

[Melchior_1]

I have nothing to add at the moment except the following; this thread sure has devolved in a hurry.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

A) I have some serious doubts that the EF will gain strength in Africa, if for no other reason than that the vernacular is far more favored /…/

B) As to any blending between the EF and the OF, yes, it was something of which Pope Benedict spoke. It also helps to keep in mind the language of the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, which spoke of removing repetitive prayers and actions, and simplifying the Mass. To presume that the intent of almost all the bishops of the world will be upended might be the fervent prayer of supporters of the EF. But realistically? 2,147 votes in favor, 4 against? I really don’t think so

C) One of the greatest complaints about the OF has been a lack of reverence, and that definitely started turning around with the ordinations of what has been termed the “John Paul 2 priests”, those young men inspired by that Pope; and it has continued in force with the retiring and dying off of the priests ordained pre and post Vatican 2

A) Indeed there is not going to be a spread of the Vetus Ordo in Africa What has caused a massive explosion of people coming into the Church is precisely the renewed, reformed and inculturated liturgy. As SC says

1. In some places and circumstances, however, an even more radical adaptation of the liturgy is needed, and this entails greater difficulties. Wherefore:

1. The competent territorial ecclesiastical authority mentioned in Art. 22, 2, must, in this matter, carefully and prudently consider which elements from the traditions and culture of individual peoples might appropriately be admitted into divine worship. Adaptations which are judged to be useful or necessary should then be submitted to the Apostolic See, by whose consent they may be introduced.

/…/

1. Because liturgical laws often involve special difficulties with respect to adaptation, particularly in mission lands, men who are experts in these matters must be employed to formulate them.

B) You are exactly correct. The decision of the Council Fathers that elements of the Mass were in need of being discarded, the whole rite simplified, elements lost to history restored, lay ministry in the Mass was the will of the 21st ecumenical council, @otjm. Regarding active participation, SC says

1. To promote active participation, the people should be encouraged to take part by means of acclamations, responses, psalmody, antiphons, and songs, as well as by actions, gestures, and bodily attitudes. And at the proper times all should observe a reverent silence.
2. The revision of the liturgical books must carefully attend to the provision of rubrics also for the people’s parts.

C) We are not all dead yet! And a number who are very very committed to the advancement of the Council’s agenda of reform and renewal are very alive – and are young and wear the mitre. They understand what is at stake regarding the legacy of the Council

 

[otjm]

My comment about priests pre and post Vatican 2 was a bit sere. I certainly did not intend to paint all, or most, or even many as loose with the rubrics and lacking in reverence. There was, however, a period of time where there were significant problems in some areas, and the phrase “one bad apple” may come close; it did not spoil the sum total of priests, but it certainly damaged their reputations by association.

I don’t follow every last rumor which emanates from Rome, but I have heard nothing as to anything being done to the EF, in spite of Pope Benedict’s comments implying that changes may eventually be made. Given the vitriol over EF/OF matters (such as the commentary in post 880 ascribing sins, abuses and blasphemies to the OF), I would be surprised if Rome even brought up the subject of changes to the EF.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

But since the mid-1960s, a statistically verifiable crisis has been afflicting the Church. As I mentioned before, Mass attendance is virtually zero in Western Europe and dropping in the United States. Belief in the Real Presence is dropping. Few go to confession. The majority of Catholics can’t explain what the Church teaches about the dogma of the Immaculate Conception. All of this coincides chronologically with the introduction of a new liturgy.

Statistics.

OK.

As a Western European, I can tell you first that our Mass attendance is not “virtually zero.”

I certainly have more people who are faithful attendees of the parishes of my diocese than, for example, the Cure of Ars found when he arrived in his parish in the France of the 19th century…where the only option for attending was attending the vetus ordo Mass. Except they weren’t attending it.

Shall I quote the state of affairs as Our Lady of La Salette spoke to the two seers, Melanie and Maximin, of how the faithful went to the meat markets like dogs during Lent…how poor the observance of the Faith was at all in this time that some want to look back upon nostalgically. When I taught Church history, I spent a fair amount of time on the 18th and 19th century because a student could not understand the importance of Vatican II without understanding the two centuries before it.

Let us be clear: nostalgia for the Tridentine Mass removed like rose coloured glasses, one does not find that Our Lady was appearing in France in the 19th century to congratulate them on their practice of the Faith.

Italy was even worse in terms of the conflict between the Church and the rest of society. We are still living with the aftermath of that…and memories are slow to die.

The time before the Council was a time in need of urgent reform and urgent renewal, most especially in the aftermath of two global conflicts that decimated this continent.

I can tell you that the Catholic world population is 1900 was 266 million and in 2015, it was 1.2 billion…it quadrupled. in 1965, the Catholic population was 615 million. Catholic population has doubled since Vatican II.

Of course, it would be absurd to attribute these numbers to whether the Mass being used was the vetus ordo or the novus ordo. There are a great many factors that go into population growth as well as why people are religiously active and why they are not.

I have spent a lot of time in Europe. I have spent a fair amount of time in North America. As the @OraLabora could confirm, the collapse of the Church in Quebec – which I did a project on and one stage in my life – had nil to do with whether the Mass was in the vetus ordo or the novus ordo. It had to do with profound sociological changes that occurred in the society of French Canada which radically altered the lives and the decision-making process – and even the expectations and aspirations of an entire distinct society that had been historically very Catholic.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

[Cont’d]

It all reminded me of the situation, actually, in the era of the Reformation, which is another area I was tasked with working in over the course of my priesthood. The issues were, yes, ecclesiastical and engaged religious practice and observance…but far more political, sociological, mores, economic, and cultural.

It was a fascinating project. It also reminds me years later that when people present facile answers, they’re invariably wrong. The issues the Church is confronting in Western Europe and in North America, in many ways, is that we don’t have an attractive enough answer for the issues of consumerism, materialism, self-determinism and hedonism. In the market place of lives and ideas, religion – every religion across the board – comes up short when it comes to the opportunities that 21st century western civilisation offers.

The world in which I have lived my life has changed dramatically. Certainly for women most of all…the opportunities of my dear long gone grandmothers and of my mother compared to the opportunities of women today is just as radical as night and day. A woman today can be Prime Minister, after all.

So are the memories of post World War II when we struggled to survive…and today we have a network of social benefits and of opportunity that were beyond the wildest dreams of my childhood.

And, in the midst of these realities, a certain group of Catholics want to talk to me, as a theologian and an academic, about the impact of Mass said in Latin against the wall as opposed to Mass said in the vernacular facing the people. As if that is some solution. I look at them like they are mad.

What has caused the exodus of people from churches and religious practice is not what missal is on the altar. And changing the missal is not going to alter that reality.

Especially since the statistics related to the vetus ordo are invariably numbers to the right of the decimal point.

In 1900, the Catholic population of Sub-Saharan Africa was 1% of the world’s Catholic population. In 2015, it is 15% of the population and will surpass Latin America’s Catholic population. This is why Pope Saint John Paul II said that the future of the Church lies in Africa…and the next horizon will be Asia.

One of my greatest joys in my life has been working with the Africans and the Church in Africa. The answer really does lie there, in my experience.

Your view seems to very narrowly constricted and oriented toward a small slice of the Universal Church. The Church’s reform and renewal, underway since Vatican II, shows a Church growing, a Church that is focused on the peripheries of the global family of nations. The election of our first Pope from the third-world points to where our future, as Church, lies.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Have no fear. I was making levity with you since I talk about my own mortality often enough on this forum.

I would agree with you about the impact of the Saint John Paul II priests. I taught some of them. I have a great love for them. And they were thoroughly imbued with the Council and remain so, even if they have no memory or experience of it. The legacy is nevertheless, overall, in good hands with men who get that where we are is exactly where the Fathers wanted us to be. Many of the men ordained in the 1980s and even into the 1990s still had Council Fathers as their own bishops. Pope Francis was ordained priest after the Council and he is thoroughly a man of the Council and what the Council was about.

John Paul II was someone that is impossible to do justice in describing to someone who did not know him. You can talk about him but talking about him with someone else who knew him is an entirely different conversation.

As for what is happening relative to the vetus ordo, it is a busy moment for theologians and periti in many areas…there are many commissions right now with very good people from the next generation. There is first woman rector of a pontifical athenaeum. There is always progress. It hearkens back to other days, and to another time. I am very optimistic now, just as I was then, knowing that the Holy Spirit is guiding these events…just as He did then. This has been the most incredible 60 years in our Church in countless centuries.