Should Latin mass be brought back?

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

There’s more to the texts of the liturgy than the biblical readings.

The parts that can be changed? A one or two lines of intercession? In the end they are asking for Mary’s intercession–and thanking her for the Rosary. I believe in Mary’s intercession but I’m completely free not to thank her for the rosary.

 

[exnihilo]

No, praying the Rosary is optional. Denying its goodness or efficaciousness is not an option. The Church has promoted the Rosary. If the Church promotes a devotion you can’t deny it.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

No, praying the Rosary is optional. Denying its goodness or efficaciousness is not an option. The Church has promoted the Rosary. If the Church promotes a devotion you can’t deny it.

It still a private devotion. One is free to deny ANY private devotion.

 

[exnihilo]

It still a private devotion. One is free to deny ANY private devotion.

1. The Rosary of the Virgin Mary, which gradually took form in the second millennium under the guidance of the Spirit of God, is a prayer loved by countless Saints and encouraged by the Magisterium. - ROSARIUM VIRGINIS MARIAE

We are obliged to give religious assent and submission to the Magisterium. I don’t see how one can broadly deny the Rosary given this.

 

[Mr_Freeze]

Denying the efficacy of the Rosary would be denying the efficacy of prayer, which I’m pretty sure IS against a doctrine (not a Dogma)…
So, you are correct. Don’t ever need to pray the rosary but can’t deny it as efficacious.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Xanthippe_Voorhees:

It still a private devotion. One is free to deny ANY private devotion.

1. The Rosary of the Virgin Mary, which gradually took form in the second millennium under the guidance of the Spirit of God, is a prayer loved by countless Saints and encouraged by the Magisterium. - ROSARIUM VIRGINIS MARIAE

We are obliged to give religious assent and submission to the Magisterium. I don’t see how one can broadly deny the Rosary given this.

encuraged is NOT required. sigh

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Denying the efficacy of the Rosary would be denying the efficacy of prayer, which I’m pretty sure IS against a doctrine (not a Dogma)…
So, you are correct. Don’t ever need to pray the rosary but can’t deny it as efficacious.

Not really.

Prayer has value within itself.

Part of the efficacy of the Rosary is the promises that are entirely private revelation. So one can acknowlege the value and efficay of the prayers of the rosary without valuing the whole and the private promises from it.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Personally, I am one to give everyone the benefit of the doubt and I certainly do not blame you for doing just that. Unfortunately, I have had many unpleasant experiences on this forum which have awakened me to…other possibilities regarding a person’s motivation. Sadly.

Thankfully, the moderators have always shown themselves to have solicitude and the new team have been most kind in the interactions we have had in these past days in which I have been visiting this forum.

I compliment both @cawebmaster and @camoderator for their kindness and attentiveness and diligence. It is very greatly appreciated.

 

[Mark121359]

But the fact remains, that you and others seem to be saying that it’s perfectly fine to deny the efficacy of the Rosary. I can’t even begin to imagine anything that would sadden the Most Blessed Virgin more, or Christ for that matter, than to hear one utter those words. By the way, the Rosary is mentioned in the CCC;

II. DEVOTION TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN

971 “All generations will call me blessed”: "The Church’s devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."515 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of ‘Mother of God,’ to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."516 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an “epitome of the whole Gospel,” express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.517

epitome
1(the epitome of) A person or object that is defined as a perfect example of something.
2A summary of a written work; an abstract.

IOW, a perfect example of the whole Gospel. Doesn’t exactly sound like something any Catholic can just summarily dismiss…does it?

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

But the fact remains, that you and others seem to be saying that it’s perfectly fine to deny the efficacy of the Rosary. I can’t even begin to imagine anything that would sadden the Most Blessed Virgin more, or Christ for that matter, than to hear one utter those words. By the way, the Rosary is mentioned in the CCC;

II. DEVOTION TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN

971 “All generations will call me blessed”: "The Church’s devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."515 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of ‘Mother of God,’ to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."516 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an “epitome of the whole Gospel,” express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.517

Playing the “you make Jesus sad” card is unneeded.

I’m trying to explain the difference between what is required and what is not.

It’s still a suggestion, even in the CCC. It’s an example…but it’s NOT a requirement. It’s great that it does that but it doesn’t change it’s wholly unrequired status. It doesn’t change the fact that while the individual prayers and focus carry graces that cannot be denied, the promises are a private revelation and can be denied.

 

[stpurl]

I’m just putting these out because they’re references from the catechism itself.

Regarding Marian devotion here:
"The Church’s devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."515 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of ‘Mother of God,’ to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."516 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an “epitome of the whole Gospel,” express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.517

So far in a fairly extensive search of the catechism on the Vatican site I have not found any specific words from the catechism that says anything about private devotions, or that the rosary is such, or that it is optional. I will continue to search.

 

[fullmetalcatholic]

Actually, you are doing your friends a favor at this day and age because you WILL NOT find a heterodox position; not one at a Traditional Latin Mass - After 2 years of going to Traditional Liturgies I am not able to go to the Novus Ordo mass without identifying errors in opposition to the GIRM, Eucharistic prayers, etc.

 

[Mr_Freeze]

Yes. I consider ‘the rosary’ A prayer…but you are correct. It is actually many prayers.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

I’m just putting these out because they’re references from the catechism itself.

Regarding Marian devotion here:
"The Church’s devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."515 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of ‘Mother of God,’ to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."516 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an “epitome of the whole Gospel,” express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.517

So far in a fairly extensive search of the catechism on the Vatican site I have not found any specific words from the catechism that says anything about private devotions, or that the rosary is such, or that it is optional. I will continue to search.

I’ve never denied that devotion to Mary or declared that Mary is unimportant to the Church. But there’s a difference between devotion to her and the promises of the Rosary (which are part of its efficiency).

The issue I have is the application of devotion to Mary seen as a “must” in the Rosary…which is problematic at best since the promises of the Rosary are all private revelation and private devotion.

 

[stpurl]

Where was the ‘promises of the Rosary’ mentioned to begin with? I don’t think the original mention was about that, a la the 15 promises to St Brigid or whatever. I don’t see that until a few posts back when you mentioned at the end ‘the promises or something’ which was the first time I’d seen ‘the promises’ in the posts on this topic though some of the posts are pretty dense and I might have missed it.

 

[exnihilo]

encuraged is NOT required. sigh

When you deny the Rosary what exactly are you denying? Maybe we need to clear that up first.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Xanthippe_Voorhees:

encuraged is NOT required. sigh

When you deny the Rosary what exactly are you denying? Maybe we need to clear that up first.

I am stating that one is free to not believe in any and all “special” promises of the rosary and free to believe that the rosary carries no specail grace outside of the church-approved prayers themselves.

 

[exnihilo]

Then I am a bit confused as I know I have agreed that you don’t need to believe in promises from private revelation. I think everyone else who has challenged your claims also agrees.

You do agree that the Rosary is ‘an effective spiritual weapon against the evils afflicting society’ and that all Catholics should agree to this, whether they find the Rosary effective in their own life or not.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Where was the ‘promises of the Rosary’ mentioned to begin with? I don’t think the original mention was about that, a la the 15 promises to St Brigid or whatever. I don’t see that until a few posts back when you mentioned at the end ‘the promises or something’ which was the first time I’d seen ‘the promises’ in the posts on this topic though some of the posts are pretty dense and I might have missed it.

Saint Brigid well predates the Rosary, since she is of Ireland of the sixth century. Saint Bridget, the 13th century mystic of Sweden, had nothing to do with the so-called 15 Promises of the Rosary but is rather associated with 15 Prayers of the Passion.

The 15 Promises of the Rosary are popularly associated in the history of Marian piety with Blessed Alan de la Roche. The historicalness of this is not at all clear…as is the case with the pious accounts of Saint Dominic receiving the Rosary in a revelation from the Mother of Jesus or, for that matter, Saint Simon Stock receiving the scapular of Carmel in a similar event of private revelation.

What constitutes the actual foundation of the Rosary as a devotion in the Church is not what is alleged about any origin in private revelation or subsequent supposed promises. It is the authority of the Magisterium. It is the Magisterium which regulates this pious practice an which recommends this devotion as something worthy of particular consideration. The Magisterium holds it in esteem and regard. Some find it extremely useful…others find it to be not helpful or even a hindrance to their life of prayer and piety.

Thus, the Rosary is an encouraged practice of piety – but in no sense is it ever required.

Conversely, there are certainly practices for the prayer life that a lay person could adopt which are objectively superior to the Rosary.

Sincere prayer, whether spontaneous or formulaic, will be “efficacious”.

Various posts in this thread, however, further demonstrate and indeed underscore a type of attitude that has marked – and continues to mark – certain attitudes of certain elements of the “traditionalist” community. These manifestations well show why such attitudes call for a vigilant and even intense scrutiny by the Church’s pastors and theologians – and also for the attentive care and scrutiny by the rest of the faithful who encounter these…as I dare say others in this thread have had the opportunity to now appreciate by what they have here experienced.

I have found that it is precisely such encounters as these that cause members of the laity to regard with extreme wariness members of the so-called “traditionalist community.”

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Then I am a bit confused as I know I have agreed that you don’t need to believe in promises from private revelation. I think everyone else who has challenged your claims also agrees.

You do agree that the Rosary is ‘an effective spiritual weapon against the evils afflicting society’ and that all Catholics should agree to this, whether they find the Rosary effective in their own life or not.

That the Rosary is an effective spiritual weapon is a private revelation, so no, I don’t believe that.

That the individual prayers have some effective spiritual merit and that any prayer said devoutly has spiritual merit is part of church teaching, so I do not deny that.