Should our faith affect how we feel?

[MariaG]

So, if the more emotional people leave, it leaves our Church feeling even more dry and desolate. I’ve noticed here on Catholic Answers that people tend to be critical of expressive faith. There have been long thread critisizing hand holding, putting your hands up in the air, and other things that more emotionally expressive like to do to praise God. It’s frowned on to express joy in Church and seems to make alot of people nervous. Our church definately doesn’t encourage it, so people go elsewhere.

That may be one of the reasons that Pope John Paul II “felt” that the charasmatic movement was important to the renewal of the Church. I would pray though that those who are more emotional about expressing their faith would not be so immature as to leave Christ just because of how they are made to “feel” by others who are less expressive. Pure and simple, the Catholic Church has the Real Presence of Christ.

And just to be fair, many of those who speak against the holding of hands usually do so because they think the following the GIRM is one way that one shows respect for the authority of the Church and more properly worships God.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Verita]

As far as not judging others by what we see, what else are we supposed to go by. The Bible says that faith without works is dead. There has to be some visable fruit to our faith. I often don’t see it within my church. Alot of people just show up for Mass and then go on to live lives not much different than agostics and atheists.

Excuse me for asking, but how do you know that? Are you peeking through their windows, stalking them on their errands and taping their phone lines to see how they behave outside of church? Do you think that “bearing fruit” always entails working in soup kitchens or actively evengelizing on the street or the like? Furthermore, does it say in the Bible that everyone around us needs to be aware of what we’re doing for it to be considered a good work?

God sees everything we do and he is the only one that can judge the state of our souls. I believe that Jesus actually recommends doing our good works in secret. (Forgive me for not having the reference. I’m at work.) Just because you can’t see any outward signs of a person’s faith doesn’t mean there aren’t any. And good works don’t necessarily involve going to elaborate measures. If you’re a mother and you spend quality time with your child, that’s a good work, especially in this society of career moms. If you’re walking down the street and see a homeless man who’s hungry and buy him lunch, that’s a good work even if no one ever knows about it.

Because the way I see it good works isn’t about volunteering for alot of organizations, it’s about doing the right thing with the opportunities that are presented to you everyday. Everything else is just a bonus.

 

[AquinaSavio]

So, if the more emotional people leave, it leaves our Church feeling even more dry and desolate. I’ve noticed here on Catholic Answers that people tend to be critical of expressive faith. There have been long thread critisizing hand holding, putting your hands up in the air, and other things that more emotionally expressive like to do to praise God. It’s frowned on to express joy in Church and seems to make alot of people nervous. Our church definately doesn’t encourage it, so people go elsewhere.

You are putting the focus of the Mass on how *you *feel. The focus should be on pleasing God, adoring Him, and thanking Him. The feel-good, warm and fuzzy (no offense intended) attitude is all about creating excitement in people, not benefitting their souls or pleasing God. You have to remember what is happening in the Eucharist.

We cannot control our emotions…but we can control our will. We may not feel love for God, but we love Him nonetheless. The Mass isn’t about exciting our physical side…it is about exciting, feeding, and benefitting our spiritual side while giving glory to our Creator.

 

[Sailboat]

You have a point Veritas. But then, that could be easily construed as an excuse as well. Saying, “Oh who are you do judge, you don’t know, etc etc…” is sort of a weak arguement. If there are special graces from our church, then they should bear visable fruits, not just in emotional responses, but in other ways of the Holy Spirit. But I see more faith in action actually in other churches, not to say that our Church does nothing. Also I know alot of non churchgoers who lead good and helpful lives, volunteering, being good husbands and wive.

 

[Sailboat]

I’m not particularly putting emphasis on how I feel, but I’m asking the question that I originally posed. This also led to the question of whether our church isn’t somewhat intolerant of emotional faith, and is actually driving away people who have that need. For instance, I saw on TV one night a black woman on a religious show who was in rapture at a prayer meeting, falling on the floor in ecstacy and crying out to God. That woman would be escorted to the door in a Catholic Mass. But I thought she was probably genuine.

So, that’s probably why some more emotional people leave the Church, because they need to express their emotions in worship. If you go on the Liturgy board here, you’ll see that there are people who are extremely critical when anyone doesn’t behave just so in church. They want the Mass very solemn. Personally that more suits my personality, I’m not very expressive. But what about someone else with a different personality?

 

[Mickey]

God sees everything we do and he is the only one that can judge the state of our souls. I believe that Jesus actually recommends doing our good works in secret. (Forgive me for not having the reference. I’m at work.)

But when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,
so that your alms may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.
(Matt 6: 3,4)

 

[Verita]

Thanks, Mickey. That’s exactly what I’m talking about. People can bear visible fruit, just not necessarily visible to other people.

For example, my father has absolutely no personality. He is not emotional in the least. He is the exact opposite of my mother who is very emotional and outspoken about her faith. However, in good works and service they are equal. Not many people know how faithfully my father gives to charity, how he’s always the first person to give when someone is in need whether it is monetary or time or any other type of service. Hardly anyone knew that for years he would take our family often to visit a little old lady who had no friends or relations around to spend time with her. I really wonder sometimes if his left hand knows all of the good things his right hand is doing. Sometimes even his own wife only finds out by accident. He lives his faith every day without any strong emotions, without openly doing alot of good works. He is one of the best Christians I know because he never leaves his faith behind. Every action is a result of his faith. But you wouldn’t know it to look at him.

 

[Mickey]

For example, my father has absolutely no personality. He is not emotional in the least. He is the exact opposite of my mother who is very emotional and outspoken about her faith. However, in good works and service they are equal. Not many people know how faithfully my father gives to charity, how he’s always the first person to give when someone is in need whether it is monetary or time or any other type of service. Hardly anyone knew that for years he would take our family often to visit a little old lady who had no friends or relations around to spend time with her. I really wonder sometimes if his left hand knows all of the good things his right hand is doing. Sometimes even his own wife only finds out by accident. He lives his faith every day without any strong emotions, without openly doing alot of good works. He is one of the best Christians I know because he never leaves his faith behind. Every action is a result of his faith. But you wouldn’t know it to look at him.

I whole-heartedly agree, Verita. God bless you and your family!

 

[MariaG]

I’m not particularly putting emphasis on how I feel, but I’m asking the question that I originally posed. This also led to the question of whether our church isn’t somewhat intolerant of emotional faith, and is actually driving away people who have that need. For instance, I saw on TV one night a black woman on a religious show who was in rapture at a prayer meeting, falling on the floor in ecstacy and crying out to God. That woman would be escorted to the door in a Catholic Mass. But I thought she was probably genuine.

So, that’s probably why some more emotional people leave the Church, because they need to express their emotions in worship. If you go on the Liturgy board here, you’ll see that there are people who are extremely critical when anyone doesn’t behave just so in church. They want the Mass very solemn. Personally that more suits my personality, I’m not very expressive. But what about someone else with a different personality?

As one of the more emotional ones, who came from the very expressive hand waving kind of churches, all I can say is that the catholic church has the Real Presence of Christ. And that is worth more than anything, even when I long for a more expressive style. To leave because I wished a more emotional experience would be a complete rejection of our Lord.

I do pray that more would be more tolerant. Or even just more trusting of the leadership of the Church which endorsed the Charasmatic movement! Although I try not to get involved, it is hurtful when others call you a kook (and worse) or other such things when one expresses a belief that the gifts of the Spirit including tongues are alive and well in the Catholic Church today.

But as I said, I think there are two very different issues.

For example, there are a few people in our church who “rush” out the door right after Mass. They are not much for “fellowship” after Mass. I see them at the store and such and one could not neccessarily “see” and fruit in their lives. Yet, they are intensely involved in fundraising for Habitat for Humanity. Or Catholic Charites. And a whole host of other things that because I am not directly involved in, I would never know what they do.

And they don’t tell people what they do lest they “boast” because it is not them but God who has enabled them to do this.

Contrast this with Protestants who feel that it is not boasting but praising God by sharing all the Fruit in their lives. If you don’t share what God is doing through you or with you, God is not with you. Not a bad thing, just different than most Catholics.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Sailboat]

But when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,
so that your alms may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.
(Matt 6: 3,4)

That’s just one isolated verse from the Bible. That’s a very Protestant technique to just quote one verse. There I’m sure would be many to support my idea of fruits of the Spirit being visable to other members of the Body of Christ. St Paul speaks often; about the fruits of the Spirit. St James also discusses faith and works frequently.

Mu argument is that our Church represses emotional expression and also that other churches seem to do a better job of firing up their parishes for Jesus, and they do do alot collectively, both as outreach to their own people and to others.

Sometimes I feel as if our church is too burueacratic and that stifes the movement of the HOly Spirit for people to have to go through red tape for everything.

 

[MariaG]

Thanks, Mickey. That’s exactly what I’m talking about. People can bear visible fruit, just not necessarily visible to other people.

For example, my father has absolutely no personality. He is not emotional in the least. He is the exact opposite of my mother who is very emotional and outspoken about her faith. However, in good works and service they are equal. Not many people know how faithfully my father gives to charity, how he’s always the first person to give when someone is in need whether it is monetary or time or any other type of service. Hardly anyone knew that for years he would take our family often to visit a little old lady who had no friends or relations around to spend time with her. I really wonder sometimes if his left hand knows all of the good things his right hand is doing. Sometimes even his own wife only finds out by accident. He lives his faith every day without any strong emotions, without openly doing alot of good works. He is one of the best Christians I know because he never leaves his faith behind. Every action is a result of his faith. But you wouldn’t know it to look at him.

Yes, this is exactly what I am talking about. (I see you posted before I could!)

There are alot of these kind of men and women in the Catholic Church.

For them to share this would be considered boasting and they do not wish to offend God by doing so.

Usually, one just finds out by accident how much these kind of people actually did do. A very quiet and inward faith. A very personal faith. But a very much alive faith.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

That’s just one isolated verse from the Bible. That’s a very Protestant technique to just quote one verse. There I’m sure would be many to support my idea of fruits of the Spirit being visable to other members of the Body of Christ. St Paul speaks often; about the fruits of the Spirit. St James also discusses faith and works frequently.

Mu argument is that our Church represses emotional expression and also that other churches seem to do a better job of firing up their parishes for Jesus, and they do do alot collectively, both as outreach to their own people and to others.

Sometimes I feel as if our church is too burueacratic and that stifes the movement of the HOly Spirit for people to have to go through red tape for everything.

I disagree. Well I agree with the “sometimes”

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Sailboat]

Your points are well taken, Maria. Unfortunatly, some will leave the Church instead of stay because they need a better support system. You’re right about some people being active in charities. I don’t think staying for coffee hour is a big thing, we don’t often do that either.

Anyways, thanks for the reponses.

 

[Mickey]

There are alot of these kind of men and women in the Catholic Church.

For them to share this would be considered boasting and they do not wish to offend God by doing so.

Usually, one just finds out by accident how much these kind of people actually did do. A very quiet and inward faith. A very personal faith. But a very much alive faith.

AMEN!! I know many lovely souls like this also.

 

[MariaG]

Your points are well taken, Maria. Unfortunatly, some will leave the Church instead of stay because they need a better support system. You’re right about some people being active in charities. I don’t think staying for coffee hour is a big thing, we don’t often do that either.

Anyways, thanks for the reponses.

Yes, I do fear that some will leave. But I pray that eventually the remember who they left behind in order to have a worship style and the fellowship that they wanted.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Della]

I’m not particularly putting emphasis on how I feel, but I’m asking the question that I originally posed. This also led to the question of whether our church isn’t somewhat intolerant of emotional faith, and is actually driving away people who have that need. For instance, I saw on TV one night a black woman on a religious show who was in rapture at a prayer meeting, falling on the floor in ecstacy and crying out to God. That woman would be escorted to the door in a Catholic Mass. But I thought she was probably genuine.

I can tell you from personal experience (from 20 years in the Assemblies of God and much experience in other Evangelical bodies) that that sort of thing doesn’t last more than a few days. It’s not a moment of grace but of release, which is not the same thing at all. After a while, those who rely on “getting something from the Lord” become emotionally exhausted. They go from one Evangelical church to another looking for their next high. Now, I’m not saying that having an emotional response is a bad thing, but I am saying, as I stated in my last post (and you didn’t comment on) that feelings cannot be relied upon to tell us anything about our spiritual lives or how well we are serving God. It simply doesn’t work that way.

So, that’s probably why some more emotional people leave the Church, because they need to express their emotions in worship. If you go on the Liturgy board here, you’ll see that there are people who are extremely critical when anyone doesn’t behave just so in church. They want the Mass very solemn. Personally that more suits my personality, I’m not very expressive. But what about someone else with a different personality?

No, that’s not why “more emotional” people leave the Catholic Church. They leave because they never plumbed the depths of their Catholic faith to find the rich, lasting treasures to be found in it. People who are looking for “something” and don’t look first into their own faith are to be pitied not envied. After 20 years of plumbing the depths of Evangelicalism I can tell you there’s not much there. It becomes truly repetitious and tiring. You are deceived by the simplicity of the Mass (which is corporate worship not a “Jesus and me” fest).

There are a multitude of spiritualities in the Church for people to find all they could ever want in the way of true spiritual life and growth. Every personality can find what it needs in the Church–it would have been stupid of God to found a Church just for the “boring,” and believe me he didn’t. Explore the depths of your Catholic faith for yourself and leave deciding who is and who isn’t truly getting anything out of Mass to God and the consciences of those who get out of bed every Sunday morning to attend.

 

[Verita]

That’s just one isolated verse from the Bible. That’s a very Protestant technique to just quote one verse. There I’m sure would be many to support my idea of fruits of the Spirit being visable to other members of the Body of Christ. St Paul speaks often; about the fruits of the Spirit. St James also discusses faith and works frequently.

Mu argument is that our Church represses emotional expression and also that other churches seem to do a better job of firing up their parishes for Jesus, and they do do alot collectively, both as outreach to their own people and to others.

Sometimes I feel as if our church is too burueacratic and that stifes the movement of the HOly Spirit for people to have to go through red tape for everything.

Are you honestly saying that an instruction from Jesus doesn’t matter because it’s only one verse? I can’t recall anywhere that the Bible instructs people to do alot of good works in front of others so that they’ll know you’re bearing fruit or anything like that. Doing good works and doing them in front of others are two very different things.

And for your information, since I have decided to join the Catholic Church I have felt more alive in my faith than ever before. I have talked about it with people more. I’ve felt more charitable than ever before. My faith is stronger now than it ever was during my years as a protestant, even when I went on 3 very visible mission trips. I have Catholicism to thank for it.

 

[Verita]

I can tell you from personal experience (from 20 years in the Assemblies of God and much experience in other Evangelical bodies) that that sort of thing doesn’t last more than a few days. It’s not a moment of grace but of release, which is not the same thing at all. After a while, those who rely on “getting something from the Lord” become emotionally exhausted. They go from one Evangelical church to another looking for their next high. Now, I’m not saying that having an emotional response is a bad thing, but I am saying, as I stated in my last post (and you didn’t comment on) that feelings cannot be relied upon to tell us anything about our spiritual lives or how well we are serving God. It simply doesn’t work that way.

Absolutely. Emotions are transitory. They are not to be expected or relied on. They are merely the icing on the cake. You need something much more substantial to build your faith on. You need four and eggs and stuff. If you only eat the icing then you’re going to get sick.

No, that’s not why “more emotional” people leave the Catholic Church. They leave because they never plumbed the depths of their Catholic faith to find the rich, lasting treasures to be found in it. People who are looking for “something” and don’t look first into their own faith are to be pitied not envied. After 20 years of plumbing the depths of Evangelicalism I can tell you there’s not much there. It becomes truly repetitious and tiring. You are deceived by the simplicity of the Mass (which is corporate worship not a “Jesus and me” fest).

There are a multitude of spiritualities in the Church for people to find all they could ever want in the way of true spiritual life and growth. Every personality can find what it needs in the Church–it would have been stupid of God to found a Church just for the “boring,” and believe me he didn’t. Explore the depths of your Catholic faith for yourself and leave deciding who is and who isn’t truly getting anything out of Mass to God and the consciences of those who get out of bed every Sunday morning to attend.

Again, absolutely. If you leave the Church because it doesn’t make you feel good or you’re not getting enough out of it then… well, it may sound harsh but good riddance. Christianity isn’t about what God gives us. It’s about what we give God.

 

[Scottgun]

http://home.comcast.net/~scottwwaddell/pics/factfaithcaboose.bmp

I went to a retreat in which many of the charismatic-Catholic types were present. This was not a bad thing in general, but occasionally some of them would play something like Spiritual Simon-Sez. That is, we would have a spontaneous prayer circle and one girl blurted out how she felt the Spirit telling all the men in the room to kneel. I was sorely tempted to say I felt the spirit telling me to go over and give her a swift kick in the rear, but what can you do? And that is the problem, feelings quickly become an imposition on others and there is the sense that if others don’t jump on board something is wrong. It’s Love Thy Neighbor, not Disturb Thy Neighbor.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Everybody here is different (thanks be to God and I mean that in the nicest possible way, because it would be very boring to have everybody alike).

It seems to me that this type of post is counterproductive even though the question does have an interest and a bearing on our lives. Why it is counterproductive is that it basically degenerates very quickly into an A vs. B argument. Both A and B have good reasoning on their side, both present a good ‘explanation’ as to why they believe as they do. . .but then either one or both will dig in the heels and flat out refuse to even consider the other POV except to argue why, EVEN SO, THEIR opinion is the RIGHT opinion.

I have seen this over and over on posts. Someone will ask a question, there will be an answer, then another answer, and pretty soon it is just a quarrel as one or more argue over who has given the ‘best’ answer. Meanwhile one or two souls TRY to get somebody to realize what is going on, or try to reconcile or present the views as equal, or complementary, but usually to no avail.

That’s why I’m not even going to THINK of looking at the thread on “do you wear jeans to church”. . .