Should priests wear their clerics when out grocery shopping? Getting a haircut? Seeing a movie? Walking the dog? Away on vacation?

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Desired by who? I do not believe that this is what this means because if it did mean this then it would just say that local customs do not matter at all when they differ.

But you seem to be leaving out the part that says “in accordance with the norms established by the Episcopal Conference”. If the Episcopal Conference sees no need to mandate the wearing of clerical attire outside of ministry situations who are we to argue with that? This would not apply to religious orders who would follow their constitutions.
Add to this the norms of the religious institutes. Personally, I find it a little intrusive when canon law says that religious follow the rules and constitutions of their institute and the laity outside of the religious community wants to dictate to the religious

I think I find this part intrusive because the focus here seems to be on priests. The laity on this thread seems to be forgetting that most male religious communities are not exclusively communities of clerics and the founders never intended them to make distinctions between the members of the community. In other words, all the members of the community are to be taken into consideration when determining internal disciplines such as dress codes.

When you begin to make these distinctions for religious, such as priests should wear Roman Collars and forget the other members of the religious order, you are promoting a distinction between the members of the religious community that most religious orders are not allowed to make and was never in the mind of their founders.

To the best of my knowledge Franciscans, Carmelites, Benedictines, Augustinians, Trinitarians, Trappists, Cistercians, Carthusians, and Dominicans all use the title Brother or Friar in their rule and constitution for every member of the community and have never had distinct forms of dress that distinguished them from each other.

In our community you can’t tell one friar from another. They wear the same habit, the same Roman collar or the same secular dress. If we applied the idea that our clerics should wear a Roman collar when not in habit, but left our our lay brothers, then we would be acting contrary to our rule. Even our Secular Order has the same dress code for all of its members, clerical or lay. They are to wear the Tau over gray and white or black and white. There is no provision in the rule or constitutions of the secular order for the dress of deacons, priests or bishops. They follow the guidance of the Episcopal Conference.

Our own friar bishops only wear the bishop’s cassock when they are in a formal setting. Other than that, they wear the brother’s habit. The only distinguishing mark is a pectoral cross over the habit. I don’t know about Carmelites, but Benedictines and Dominican bishops also wear their habit with a pectoral cross.

The idea is to preserve the unity of the order and to help the religious feel part of the family, not different from his brothers.

I guess these little complexities are not always understood by the average lay person. That’s why the forcefulness of some posts sounds intrusive. There are circumstances, traditions and customs that the Church accepts and for which it makes room. Canon law is never so rigid nor does it address every possible situation, especially concerning religious.

Then there are the Byzantines for whom there are some distinct canons not included in the Roman law. I know a Byzantine Catholic priest who is married and the father of several children. In the USA it would be very confusing if he were to walk down the street holding his wife’s hand, while wearing a collar or robe. Nonetheless, he is a priest. Does the title of this thread include him too and our other Byzantine clerics who are married and have children? Should they show up at their little league game in clerical garb, in a country where the number of Byzantine married clerics is so small?

There are too many situations for the average person to know and for one rule to speak to all of them is a little difficult. This is why there is an allowance made for the judgement of the bishops or the religious superiors.

JR 🙂
 
Personally, I am inspired and comforted whenever I see a member of the clergy or the consecrated life in their clerical garb or habit in public. It can be such a powerful witness, as many others have already expressed in this thread. This witness is especially powerful in the ever increasingly secular world we live in.

I think about this especially on Ash Wednesday when I wear the ashes upon my head throughout the day as a sign of my own need for repentance and daily conversion. Sure, there are curious people who ask if I’m aware there’s a black smudge on my head, but it can be such a wonderful opportunity to do a little evangelization right then and there. I think about the possibility of other Christians who might have fallen away from the faith and are reminded of it when seeing me with the ashes.

It is the same idea with the priest and his collar or cassock. It is such a tremendous witness to our shared faith in Jesus Christ and His Church!
 
Yes, there are rules. When outside of ministry it is the “local custom” here in the USA that it is up to the individual to decide.
Local custom does not mean “local bad customs”.

Errors that are propageted to the norm does not mean custom.

Cannonists make that clear.

The law protects the priest from civil laws that might get him arrested. In some countries there are explicit anti-clerical/ anti-Church laws (I say explicit because many, including our own, have implicit ones.)
 
Local custom does not mean “local bad customs”.

Errors that are propageted to the norm does not mean custom.

Cannonists make that clear.

The law protects the priest from civil laws that might get him arrested. In some countries there are explicit anti-clerical/ anti-Church laws (I say explicit because many, including our own, have implicit ones.)
One must prove that allowing clergy to decide if they want to wear clerics outside of ministry is a local “bad” custom.

I, and many others including those who make these decisions, do not think it is.
 
Local custom does not mean “local bad customs”.

Errors that are propageted to the norm does not mean custom.

Cannonists make that clear.

The law protects the priest from civil laws that might get him arrested. In some countries there are explicit anti-clerical/ anti-Church laws (I say explicit because many, including our own, have implicit ones.)
I don’t think that Rome is interested in lay interpretations of what is good, bad, or error.

Sounds like another case of making the rules from the bottom up, instead of from the top down.
 
Any reason you could come up to not wear clerics would most probably tied to a sin (the labor and sports excluded).

And these are not lay intrepetations. These are things you study.

What exactly do you think local customs mean?

Things that happend only after Vatican II?

Ever heard of the concept of a house cassock?
 
Any reason you could come up to not wear clerics would most probably tied to a sin (the labor and sports excluded).
Like, meeting a family to make funeral arrangements?

Or, meeting with the architect and builder of a new church during construction?

Or, going grocery shopping? (I suppose the produce department is a great place to pick up chicks these days :rolleyes: )

Going grocery shopping may lead to temptation for you, but that doesn’t mean it does for others.
 
YES! Yes, they should be so I can recognize them as a Catholic priest as I may need confession. I usually do.:eek:
 
Any reason you could come up to not wear clerics would most probably tied to a sin (the labor and sports excluded).
This is a very judgmental statement. How can you possibly know this?
YES! Yes, they should be so I can recognize them as a Catholic priest as I may need confession. I usually do.:eek:
This is one of the many reasons why a member of the clergy might chose to not wear clerics when out side of ministry.

There are times at the Church one can go to for confession.

There are times when clergy may not have a lot of time to spend talking with people while he is running personal errands. So rather than be rude and/or a possible cause of scandal he might chose to not wear clerics.
 
As a probable future priest, I intend to wear a cassock all the time (I know I’ll be in great pain in the summer), except doing sports.
First off, let me encourage you. Your devotion to God is appreciated.

As to the sports: I have seen on EWTN the Dominican sisters playing soccer in their habbit and the EWTN brothers shooting hoops in their’s. They look very uncomfortable. 🙂
 
Any reason you could come up to not wear clerics would most probably tied to a sin (the labor and sports excluded).

And these are not lay intrepetations. These are things you study.

What exactly do you think local customs mean?

Things that happend only after Vatican II?

Ever heard of the concept of a house cassock?
I get the impression that you want to dictate to secular clerics and to religious men what they should wear and when. I don’t understand why.

Especially religious, Brother David and I have made it more than clear that in religious orders we determine these things for ourselves according to the mind of our founders.

We also have no desire to clericalize religious life. Many of our orders are orders of friars and monks. Not every friar or every monk is a priest, but all are equal members of the order with equal rights, equal dignity and equal authority.

Why would we make it so our clerics stand out in our communities? This was not the intention of the founders of the Mendicant or Monastic orders.

Even the title Father is only used for the founder, not for the clerics in our rules and our constituions. That’s how far our founders were from the idea of clericalism.

Why would you want to clericalize orders?

JR 🙂
 
Like, meeting a family to make funeral arrangements?

Or, meeting with the architect and builder of a new church during construction?

Or, going grocery shopping? (I suppose the produce department is a great place to pick up chicks these days :rolleyes: )

Going grocery shopping may lead to temptation for you, but that doesn’t mean it does for others.
What I meant that not using clerics in those situations is an act of human respect (the sin of human respect). Why not demonstrate that you are a priest?

Will you get arrested? Killed? What is it?

Human respect.
 
  1. Why is this so important to the laity? Shouldn’t this be a topic for the diocese or superiors of religious communities?
This is the way I feel about it. Who makes me judge over the ones in authority over me?

I know that our priests is about half and half in clerics or shorts and a tee shirt. That is because he never stops. If he has to head out on an errand chances are good that he is outside working and will be returning to that labor. If not, he is likely invovled in some ministerial activity that requires his clerics. It is just not logical to expect a man to change and bathe 5 times a day just to go to town and grab a bite for lunch or get some more gas for the mower. Yet when ministering, then he may be out moving furniture or doing laundry in clerics. We trust these people with our souls, can we not trust them to dress themselves. :rolleyes:
 
There are times at the Church one can go to for confession.
Wow, I really disagree with this. Can you imagine St. John Vianney refusing confession? This is not a good attitude for a priest to have. A priest is always a spiritual father whether he is wearing his clerics/habit or not. A priest does not punch-out at 5pm.

Under normal conditions (even while out in public), there had better be a pretty darn serious reason for a priest to ever tell a member of the faithful desiring confession that he can’t be bothered for five minutes to hear it and dispense God’s mercy and forgiveness.For better or worse the person may never make it to the times at the church for confession. The prospective penitent might even die that night.
 
Wow, I really disagree with this. Can you imagine St. John Vianney refusing confession? This is not a good attitude for a priest to have. A priest is always a spiritual father whether he is wearing his clerics/habit or not. A priest does not punch-out at 5pm.

Under normal conditions (even while out in public), there had better be a pretty darn serious reason for a priest to ever tell a member of the faithful desiring confession that he can’t be bothered for five minutes to hear it and dispense God’s mercy and forgiveness.For better or worse the person may never make it to the times at the church for confession. The prospective penitent might even die that night.
But you have to remember that St. John Vianney was not a religious. Unless a priest belongs to a Clerical Institute the truth is that he does check out of parish or priestly ministry to be a religious, which is his first vocation. The priesthood is a vocation within a vocation for those who are monks or friars.

I’ll give you an example, in our community priests may never miss community functions, prayers, meals, recreation, retreats, meetings or chapters. An attempt is always made to make sure that you can get a priest from the diocese or another religious community to cover. When that does not work, the parish closes down during such functions. The only time a friar is excused from community life is in the event of life and death. Someone passing you on the street or the mall is not a life and death event. On the other hand, priests in our secular order have a different situation and more flexibility with their time and their presence, as well as with their dress, which is what this thread is about.

Assuming that the person wants to go to confession and dies before he or she can make it, the Church teaches that the person’s contrition is enough to gain forgiveness.

I hope this helps, because what I see on too many of these posts is the demand for priests to be on duty 24/7 forgetting that many priests have other obligations that at times supercede their ministry.

I’ll provide one more example for thought that I think I used before. I attended grad school with a Trappist monk who was a priest. He never wore a habit or a Roman collar. The policiy in his community was that a Trappist goes through the world without being noticed. He would travel to the university and back to his monastery every day. Only his close friends knew that he was a religious and a priest. He was always friendly and helpful, but very engaged in his studies and his monastic life. Everthing else seemed to be there, but of no real attraction to his attention.

I think we have to keep in mind the many different situations. Not all priests are part of the same world.

Fraternally,

JR 🙂
 
Wow, I really disagree with this. Can you imagine St. John Vianney refusing confession? This is not a good attitude for a priest to have. A priest is always a spiritual father whether he is wearing his clerics/habit or not. A priest does not punch-out at 5pm.

Under normal conditions (even while out in public), there had better be a pretty darn serious reason for a priest to ever tell a member of the faithful desiring confession that he can’t be bothered for five minutes to hear it and dispense God’s mercy and forgiveness.For better or worse the person may never make it to the times at the church for confession. The prospective penitent might even die that night.
Not everyone who wants to talk to a priest in a public setting wants to avail themselves of the Sacrament of Reconciliation, and even if they do is the isle of a grocery store the proper place for this Sacrament?

There are times for the Sacraments, they are not always available on demand. The exception is in cases of emergencies where death is possible.
 
Not everyone who wants to talk to a priest in a public setting wants to avail themselves of the Sacrament of Reconciliation, and even if they do is the isle of a grocery store the proper place for this Sacrament?

There are times for the Sacraments, they are not always available on demand. The exception is in cases of emergencies where death is possible.
Brother:

I agree with what you have said. But I also believe that the average lay person does not understand the difference between a priest who is a secular and one who is a friar, such as a Carmelite or Franciscan or a monk.

I would imagine that in the Carmelite Orders the rules must be very similar to those of the Franciscan Orders. Our priests dress according to the rule and constitution of the Order. These constitutions are approved by the Sacred Congregation for Religious after they are approved by the General Chapter. Generally, they do not demand that the friars dress in habits or Roman collars 24/7.

Also, in our Order, priests are not the only ones who wear Roman collars. From the time a friar is a novice he wears a Roman collar, if not in habit, or secular dress. Therefore, the Roman collar is not a symbol of the priesthood in our three orders. Is it the same in the Carmelite Orders?

Even our Secular Franciscans who are deacons or priests have their own dress code approved by the Church and the Order.

Finally, those friars who are priests are expected to conform to the Order first, then to the expectations of the laity. Is it not the same for Carmelites?

JR 🙂
 
Brother:

I agree with what you have said. But I also believe that the average lay person does not understand the difference between a priest who is a secular and one who is a friar, such as a Carmelite or Franciscan or a monk.

I would imagine that in the Carmelite Orders the rules must be very similar to those of the Franciscan Orders. Our priests dress according to the rule and constitution of the Order. These constitutions are approved by the Sacred Congregation for Religious after they are approved by the General Chapter. Generally, they do not demand that the friars dress in habits or Roman collars 24/7.

Also, in our Order, priests are not the only ones who wear Roman collars. From the time a friar is a novice he wears a Roman collar, if not in habit, or secular dress. Therefore, the Roman collar is not a symbol of the priesthood in our three orders. Is it the same in the Carmelite Orders?

Even our Secular Franciscans who are deacons or priests have their own dress code approved by the Church and the Order.

Finally, those friars who are priests are expected to conform to the Order first, then to the expectations of the laity. Is it not the same for Carmelites?

JR 🙂
Isn’t there a “brother’s collar” which has no opening as opposed to the Roman Collar?
 
There are times when clergy may not have a lot of time to spend talking with people while he is running personal errands. .
You are describing someone like a baptist preacher who has a family to worry about. We are not speaking of protestant clergy, but dedicated Catholic priests. A Catholic priest should NEVER decline confession to any Catholic. Sure, go outside the store into a car, meet him at a near by parish, etc. But he should drop what he is doing (and most will) and do God’s will!

A priest that feels the same way as you just described should find another vocation, as he would not be a true servant of God.

I can hear Christ now (following your description), “Sorry Mary Magdelene, I am running personal errands at this time. Could you please fetch me that drink of water so I could be on my way”.
 
Brother:

I agree with what you have said. But I also believe that the average lay person does not understand the difference between a priest who is a secular and one who is a friar, such as a Carmelite or Franciscan or a monk.

I would imagine that in the Carmelite Orders the rules must be very similar to those of the Franciscan Orders. Our priests dress according to the rule and constitution of the Order. These constitutions are approved by the Sacred Congregation for Religious after they are approved by the General Chapter. Generally, they do not demand that the friars dress in habits or Roman collars 24/7.

Also, in our Order, priests are not the only ones who wear Roman collars. From the time a friar is a novice he wears a Roman collar, if not in habit, or secular dress. Therefore, the Roman collar is not a symbol of the priesthood in our three orders. Is it the same in the Carmelite Orders?

Even our Secular Franciscans who are deacons or priests have their own dress code approved by the Church and the Order.

Finally, those friars who are priests are expected to conform to the Order first, then to the expectations of the laity. Is it not the same for Carmelites?

JR 🙂
This is true but in the parishes that we run, they are run as a normal parish. It seems that in some of them those who serve there wish to give up some of the community life, if not all of it. This is something of a struggle right now.

About the habit and non-clergy wearing the Roman Collar. We can only wear the Roman Collar when doing ministry that we are unable to wear our habits at.

Some laity have issues with non-clergy wearing the Roman Collar and I have run into laity that dislike the habit because they can not tell who is a priest and who is not.
Then maybe a priest that feels the same way as you just described should find another vocation, as he would not be a true servant of God.

I can hear Christ now (following your description), “Sorry Mary Magdelene, I am running personal errands at this time. Could you please fetch me that drink of water so I could be on my way”.
So a priest is to never have any personal time at all? And people wonder why there is a priest shortage and why so many priests have psychological issues.

But how about this example. A priest has to celebrate a Mass but needs to pick up his prescription. Should he stop for everyone who wishes to talk to him? Many people just want to talk to a priest with no confession in mind. If I allowed it I could stand at the Shrine of the Immaculate Conception all day and not do anything other than talk to every person. Clerical dress also seems to draw out everyone who has something to say about anything in the Church. It is really hard to explain this to a lay person who really has no concept of this.

I have spoken to priests who have stopped wearing clerics when they travel because if they did not they would never make their flights. Many of them are also approached by non-Catholics who want to make a confession or to just talk.

It is easy for people to demand of others what they do not have to do themselves but it is not fair to do so, especially when the competent authorities say otherwise.
 
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