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ethelzguy
Guest
Clearly, this is a subjective issue with no “right or wrong” definitive answer…just opinions.
Should priests wear their clerics when out grocery shopping? Getting a haircut? Seeing a movie? Walking the dog? Away on vacation?
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
I am not aware of any promise of simple living made by the secular priesthood.
They make two promises, one of chastity (which means celibacy) and one of obedience to the bishop.
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FickleFreckled
Guest
I’m a late-comer to this thread. Priests here shopped or dined out in normal street attire, especially during the high point of the molestation scandals when wearing the collar could invite attack. But even without that, priests need their down-time just like everyone else. I don’t know if that has or will change with our new bishop. However, there are Protestant ministers and lay ministers who have taken to wearing roman collars; an Assembly of God chaplain I know wears one, for instance. There’s no guarantee that the person wearing the collar is a priest anymore; the automatic association with the Church has been diluted.
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JReducation
Guest
It is also worn by seminarians, deacons, and religious brothers. It’s not the exclusive dress of the priest. Whenever we have some kind of diocesan affair for the clergy and religious, the seminarians, deacons, and brothers wear Roman collars too. Unless you personally know these men, you would not know who’s a priest. Even within Catholicism there is no hard and fast rule that priests are the only men who wear Roman collars.
JR
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CatholiCommit
Guest
By reading the posts in this forum it seems that it has been run over and over, and there are people have opinions, and then there are yes and not answers. Since there is no determination of what the right answer is, so I guess it really does not matter, if they do it is a good thing if the don’t then that is good too.
The fact is if we seem then out dressed as we see them in church then be friendly and say Hi, but you will not know if they are priest or not because they wear street cloths sometimes to fool the general public not just to avoid scandal which I know has been a big thing in the past.
I would say not make a big deal about it, sometimes it is best that way. Maybe looking at it from a different point of view.
The fact is if we seem then out dressed as we see them in church then be friendly and say Hi, but you will not know if they are priest or not because they wear street cloths sometimes to fool the general public not just to avoid scandal which I know has been a big thing in the past.
I would say not make a big deal about it, sometimes it is best that way. Maybe looking at it from a different point of view.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
I have to take exception to this comment. I have bolded what I find offensive.
I think this is a very judgmental and uncharitable comment.
I am a brother in vows. I do not wear street cloths to “fool the general public” and neither do those priests that I know who are my brothers in community.
I think this is a very judgmental and uncharitable comment.
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tamarnp
Guest
I am a simple person. I have simple thoughts. I prefer it that way. That being said, I have no problems seeing my parish priest in public in a polo and jeans. His parishoners know he is a priest whether he is in his collar or not. I do not see what the purpose of this would be. I address him as Father whether he is in his community clothes or not. I would think that people would treat him different if he were in his collar. Wouldn’t it be beneficial for him to know what is being said in the community rather than be protected from certain subjects since others may not want to discuss things in front of a priest? I am not expressing myself clearly, but being on antihistamines messes with my brain.
God bless all!
God bless all!
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CatholiCommit
Guest
ByzCath-
I am sorry my comment offended you but I would like to point out that sometimes priest do not want to dress like priests because people might mob them, I can understand all the other circumstances as well. I was simply pointing out that this thread has been poked to death and since there is no right or wrong answer it is not a big deal.
What mean by fooling the general public is not simply saying to trick the public but to open their eyes that priests do same things they do like go out in public. Maybe I should have made this clear the first time, but if this new comment offends you then I am sorry it is my opinion and I am not changing my view.
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hilde_the_dog
Guest
In reply to whomever started this thread see the post and reply in ask an apologist.
looking4answers
Junior Member Join Date: January 16, 2005
Location: Dearborn, Michigan
Posts: 23
Should I say something to this priest for buying beer?
I have a question that arose from a situation last week. Before I ask I just want to say that I am not trying to sound petty and let you know that I feel kind of silly asking , so…
Recently my husband and I were in a local specialty beer and wine store and we got seperated. When I found him he was laughing and said that he thought he saw a priest over by the beer. He just thought it was kind of funny. Well when we went up to the register we relized that it was a newly ordained priest from our chuch. He was walking out with a large bag of beer. The thing that struck me was that he was wearing his clergy shrit and collar. Now I know that he is a young man, maybe 30. Which by the way is only a couple of years older than me. And I know that there is nothing wrong if a priest drinks. But what I can’t get over is that with all that the Church is going thorugh in a secular sociey, does that just give room for scandal and people ammunition for people to talk?
You can tell me if I am being nosey! And to leave it alone. But I feel as though I needed to ask someone!!
Thanks!
Looking4answers
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#2 Yesterday, 7:13 pm
Fr. Vincent Serpa
Catholic Answers Apologist Join Date: May 4, 2004
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 2,423
Re: Should I say something to this Priest?
Hi,
Simply because he bought a lot of beer doesn’t mean that it was all for him. I’m glad that he was wearing his clericals. I don’t see any scandal. I’ve bought beer for a pizza party with my clericals on. Drinking beer is a good thing when enjoyed appropriately.
Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.
looking4answers
Junior Member Join Date: January 16, 2005
Location: Dearborn, Michigan
Posts: 23
Should I say something to this priest for buying beer?
I have a question that arose from a situation last week. Before I ask I just want to say that I am not trying to sound petty and let you know that I feel kind of silly asking , so…
Recently my husband and I were in a local specialty beer and wine store and we got seperated. When I found him he was laughing and said that he thought he saw a priest over by the beer. He just thought it was kind of funny. Well when we went up to the register we relized that it was a newly ordained priest from our chuch. He was walking out with a large bag of beer. The thing that struck me was that he was wearing his clergy shrit and collar. Now I know that he is a young man, maybe 30. Which by the way is only a couple of years older than me. And I know that there is nothing wrong if a priest drinks. But what I can’t get over is that with all that the Church is going thorugh in a secular sociey, does that just give room for scandal and people ammunition for people to talk?
You can tell me if I am being nosey! And to leave it alone. But I feel as though I needed to ask someone!!
Thanks!
Looking4answers
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#2 Yesterday, 7:13 pm
Fr. Vincent Serpa
Catholic Answers Apologist Join Date: May 4, 2004
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 2,423
Re: Should I say something to this Priest?
Hi,
Simply because he bought a lot of beer doesn’t mean that it was all for him. I’m glad that he was wearing his clericals. I don’t see any scandal. I’ve bought beer for a pizza party with my clericals on. Drinking beer is a good thing when enjoyed appropriately.
Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.
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Cobbfmly
Guest
It didn’t cause scandal.
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ethelzguy
Guest
It’s not a Church rule…it’s an opinion that some of the laity would like to foist upon priests. Another “control” issue.
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EasterJoy
Guest
Beer is not sinful, per se, nor even scandalous. Of course a priest can buy as much as he wants, whether it requires a bag or a forklift to get the whole purchase into his vehicle, whether wearing a collar or not, and what he does with it is his own business.
Anyone who is scandalized by responsible alcohol use needs to read the Gospels a little more. Jesus had a few choice words for the Jews who wagged their tongues because he drank alcohol, the same ones whose tongues wagged because John didn’t. Obviously, the Lord expects no one to live life to please people like that.
Drunkenness is another issue, and again, the collar is almost besides the point. Christians need to act like Christians at all times, whether or not we think we’ll be recognized. If we act otherwise, we mock God.
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Aramis
Guest
Living a simple life is an old tradition.
It also is an admonition that some bishops give to those they ordain, tho’ not a solemn vow nor direct instruction.
Further, it is biblical; Sts. Peter, Paul, John all advise a simple life not in those terms, but definitely advise such…
1 Peter 2:11-17
1 John 3
Romans 8
Priests are called to live the Gospel. And to lead a life of Christian virtue… and Christian virtue includes living simply, tho’ not of need uncomfortably.
Further, it is in canon law:
Can. 282 §1. Clerics are to foster simplicity of life and are to refrain from all things that have a semblance of vanity.
§2. They are to wish to use for the good of the Church and works of charity those goods which have come to them on the occasion of the exercise of ecclesiastical office and which are left offer after provision has been made for their decent support and for the fulfillment of all the duties of their own state.
vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__PY.HTM
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Lepanto
Guest
Is there a Canon Law against the laity having an opinion?
Besides, I don’t see any foisting going on, just statements of preferences.
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AHapka
Guest
Actually, considering the poor value of such vehicles in times of high gas prices he might have gotten a really good deal on it compared to a different vehicle. Presuming a priest lived very close, and didn’t do much other driving the gas costs wouldn’t be as high as one might think. Most cars get very poor mileage within the first couple mile to miles and the savings on a fuel efficient engine is not significantly realized until after that.
Getting a Hummer dirt cheap could be a better deal then one might think if one doesn’t drive much.
This is how I would like to think in the most charitable terms possible
In any event, I’d rather have a priest who drives a Hummer and conducts a Mass in line with the GIRM then a priest who drives an economical Honda and conducts a Mass full of liturgical abuses. I.E. Let’s not forget what’s really important about our priests.
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JReducation
Guest
This call is for all Christians, not just clerics.
This also is for all Christians, not just clerics.
The key word here is the word “state”. The word refers to the difference between a regular and a secular priest. Material resources are to be used according to the priest’s state in the Church.
Fraternally,
JR
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JReducation
Guest
Many of our friars wear secular clothes for many reasons. “Fooling” the world is not one of them. Most of the time the reasons are very practical ones.
I believe this term can be misleading. It can be inerpreted as if those who are priests have a sinister reason for dressing in secular clothing. That would be an unfair judgment.
Fraternally,
JR
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peary
Guest
Why not?
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Aramis
Guest
**JR: **When I cite canon law, I usually cite the whole of that particular canon, just for completeness. One of the cites below I didn’t, because the canon itself is very long.
And yes, the call is specifically for all to live simply, at least in Scripture.
**Brother David (ByzCath): **
For your edification, some citations from the Code of Canon Law for the Eastern Catholic Churches.
examine CCEO C.346 §2 ¶8 (Canon discusses requirements for seminarians):
(8) they are to be helped also with those other virtues, which especially apply to their vocation, such as discretion of spirit, chastity, fortitude of the soul; they are also to esteem and cultivate those virtues which are found among most of humanity and enhance the ministry of Christ, among which are sincerity of heart, diligent concern for justice, the spirit of poverty, fidelity to promises, courtesy in acting, speaking modestly joined with charity.
and CCEO C.382 & 385
Canon 382
Clerics are to abstain completely from all those things unbecoming to their state, according to the norms determined in detail by particular law, and also to avoid those things which are alien to it.
Canon 385
And yes, the call is specifically for all to live simply, at least in Scripture.
**Brother David (ByzCath): **
For your edification, some citations from the Code of Canon Law for the Eastern Catholic Churches.
examine CCEO C.346 §2 ¶8 (Canon discusses requirements for seminarians):
(8) they are to be helped also with those other virtues, which especially apply to their vocation, such as discretion of spirit, chastity, fortitude of the soul; they are also to esteem and cultivate those virtues which are found among most of humanity and enhance the ministry of Christ, among which are sincerity of heart, diligent concern for justice, the spirit of poverty, fidelity to promises, courtesy in acting, speaking modestly joined with charity.
and CCEO C.382 & 385
Canon 382
Clerics are to abstain completely from all those things unbecoming to their state, according to the norms determined in detail by particular law, and also to avoid those things which are alien to it.
Canon 385
- Imbued with Christ’s spirit of poverty, clerics are to strive to lead a simple life and thus to be witnesses to the heavenly goods before the world; using spiritual discretion let them designate their temporal goods to correct use; and from the goods they acquire on the occasion of the exercise of an ecclesiastical office, ministry, or function, let them first provide for their own suitable sustenance and for the fulfillment of their obligations and then devote and share the rest in works of the apostolate or of charity. 2. Clerics are forbidden to exercise by themselves or through another any business or trade whether for their own benefit or for that of another, except with permission of the authority defined by particular law or by the Apostolic See. 3. A cleric is forbidden to post bond, even from his own goods, unless he has consulted his own eparchial bishop or, as the case may be, the major superior.
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JReducation
Guest
I didn’t mean to imply that there was anything wrong with the brief citation that you gave earlier. I hope you didn’t take it that way, because my post did not mean to imply that at all.
On another note, both Brother David and I belong to religious families that have a Rule with solemn vows. All of the elements in the canon and more are already included in the Rule and Constitutions of our respective orders.
In fact, there are points allowed in the canon that are not allowed by the Rule of Carmel or the Francican Rule.
The canon by itself is more applicable to secular clerics (diocesan or those who belong to clerical institutes).
The key to the canon is that clerics should live according to their state in life. My concern is always that we not expect secular clerics to live by the same ascetic standards as friars and monks. The Church law does not expect that of them. It expects a simplicity that is representative of the world around them. That’s going to vary from one diocese to another and from one country to another.
A secular cleric in India who lives the simplicity of a secular cleric in the USA will stick out like a sore thumb. When applied to secular clerics the term simplicity is more versatile and it has to be, because of different circumstances.
Nonetheless, the Church does not deny the secular cleric any material rights that are theirs by justice. As I said before, a secular cleric who is an heir to a fortune is not required to relinquish it, as is the case with a religious cleric. He is required to live a simple life, even if his is a millionaire. This happens.
I know a Maryknoll priest who came from a very wealthy family. He inherited a large amount of money when his parents died. Because Maryknoll are secular priests, he is allowed to keep the money. But he still lives a very simple life. To be honest, I’m not sure what he did or does with that money nor have I asked, because it’s a private thing. Father Scalia, the son of Chief Justice Scalia is another secular priest who will someday come into some money. The Diocese of Arlington will not take it away from him. He’ll have to figure out what to do with it and live as the working class in the Arlington area lives. I’m not divulging anything that is not public information in that part of the country. Everyone in the Washington DC area know father and son and the family.
If this were the case of Brother David, he cannot accept that inheritence for himself once he makes solemn vows. Not being a Carmelite, I don’t know what their constitution says about such situations. I know that in the Franciscan constitutions it says that the money must go to the next of kin or to charity. The friar signs a legal document before making solemn vows where he voluntarilly assigns all future inheritances to the beneficiary of his choice. But he keeps none of it nor may he give it to the Order. Secular clerics make no such promise.
This is just a random idiotic thought on my part, but I guess if you’re a secular cleric and you inherit a fortion, you can buy many clerical outfits for every occasion.
That would certainly takes care of your shortage of clothing.Fraternally,
JR
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