Should pro-abortion Judges be excommunicated?

[Orthodox1047]

I find the question impossible to answer the way it is worded. First and foremost how can an honest judge be anything but objective? That being the case, there is no such thing as a “Pro-abortion Judge”. Now – if you have a pro-abortion person who facilitates abortion, then they are automatically excommunicated. This would include the doctor who performs the abortion and anyone else directly involved. As for a police officer being asked to control a pro-life crowd, this is a contradiction in terms. A truly Pro-life crowd would never act in a disruptive manner so the question is moot. As worded, I believe that this question can never lead to any meaningful discussion. My point is that if anyone walks away thinking that there are exceptions to the act of abortion, then the discussion has been fruitless.

 

[palmharbor]

I think you all do not understand that a Judge upholds the law, that is his job.
He is not to let his personal feelings dictate his vote. Then he becomes an “activist”
Judge. In Bush v. Gore the Supreme Court decided the 2000 election. One of the
Judges had two sons working in high positions in the Bush 2000 Campaign. His name
was Scolia and he voted to give the office of the president to Bush.

I would note that ever since Roe v. Wade…not one “prolife” congressman, senator
or President offered a constitutional amendment to ban abortion. Not one!!!
No one talks about giving women the vote because the Constitution was amended
to give the voting right to women.
I remember Congressman Bob Barr who always ran as a “prolife” candidate and got
elected over and over and over…until a women’s group posted documentation
from his former wife that he drove his wife to an abortion clinic and wrote out a check
for the abortion. A copy of the check was published on the website. He did not run
for re-election…Republicans never want abortion to be illegal by the US Constitution
as they could not continue to milk this issue for votes like Bob Barr did. Barr was
the Libertarian candidate for President of the United States, he did not oppose abortion
as the Libertarian Candidate for President.
Too many Catholics have been exploited for their vote year after year after year
after year. The Pope in his wisdom was opposed to the invasion of Iraq and told
Bush many times…the Pope was right. The war was a disaster and cost a trillion
dollars. How many of you supported him at that time? I bet few of you did.

 

[RandDguy]

In my opinion, the Church should not excommunicate a Judge simply because they rule that under the law as it is, abortion is legal. Judges lower than the Supreme Court are required to rule that abortion, at least under the parameters defined by the Supreme Court, is legal. A Supreme Court Justice should, in my opinion, rule how they believe the law treats abortion. If a given Justice (say, Scalia) believes that the constitution gives legal protection to abortions, then they should rule that the law says abortion is allowed. If, however, they believe that the law constitution does not require protection for abortion, they should rule that way.

To excommunicate a Judge/Justice simply because they are ruling on what the law says (and they should not be ruling on what they want the law to say) would be tantamount to doing something like excommunicating a Marine or a Soldier because the US sends them into combat in an unjust war.

This is an inappropriate analogy. Combattants DO NOT take the personal responsibility Judges do. There is so much interpretation being done from the bench that NOT bringing one’s own perspective is impossible. Every liberal judge does. Also, If you live in a fascist country with fascist laws, the devout practicing Catholic WILL NOT want to become a judge. I want to see how far ‘obedience’ to the civil law will get that judge when they are standing before THE JUDGE.

 

[palmharbor]

Yes, Scolia is and was an activist Judge…his sons worked for Bush 2000, he was appointed by a Republican President and he was the deciding vote to give Bush
the election. Of course he is not a Liberal now his he?
I suggest you turn off FoxNews and read the facts of an issue.
I would note that Abortion was declared a criminal crime and punishable by prison
in Germany. It was one of the first thing that Hitler did when he came to power as
well as making trade unions illegal. Hitler invented Fascism. Benito Mussolini
President of the Fascist government of Italy also made abortion illegal as did
Franco in Fascist Spain.
I suggest you re-read European history for some facts.
Famous American Conservatives received the GRAND CROSS OF THE GERMAN EAGLE
by Mr. Hitler…those people were Henry Ford and Charles Lindberg. It happened in
August of 1938 shortly before Germany invaded Catholic Poland.

 

[johngh]

Several of the answers to this thread are confirming my suspicion that although “conservatives” (I hate that word) complain until they are blue in the face about activist judges, they don’t really want to see judges that are not activist, they really just want to see activist judges that agree with them.

The way I see it, as long as people keep doing things they shouldn’t, but saying it’s their jobs fault, or “socieities” fault for making them do it, then this world will NEVER change. What we need is for people to take personal responsibility for what they do, and stop blaming others for “making them” do things that go against their beliefs. You cannot change society, you can only change yourself. And that is the only way this world will ever be saved.

 

[Orthodox1047]

Yes, Scolia is and was an activist Judge…his sons worked for Bush 2000, he was appointed by a Republican President and he was the deciding vote to give Bush
the election.**Can you explain how one person decide’s the US election? Not from where I’m standing! ** Of course he is not a Liberal now his he?
I suggest you turn off FoxNews and read the facts of an issue.**I don’t trust any news media today - they do not hide their bias, which results in untruthful news and editorializing **
I would note that Abortion was declared a criminal crime and punishable by prison
in Germany. It was one of the first thing that Hitler did when he came to power as
well as making trade unions illegal. Hitler invented Fascism. Benito Mussolini
President of the Fascist government of Italy also made abortion illegal as did
Franco in Fascist Spain.
I suggest you re-read European history for some facts.
Famous American Conservatives received the GRAND CROSS OF THE GERMAN EAGLE
by Mr. Hitler…those people were Henry Ford and Charles Lindberg. It happened in
August of 1938 shortly before Germany invaded Catholic Poland.

** I don’t quite see the point of what you are saying? **

 

[palmharbor]

Then re-read it.
For years, the Church was obsessed with being anti-communist…Well, so was Hitler.
He blamed the fire of the Reichstag, he blamed it on the Communists.His people actually did it. Be careful
who you align yourself with. Hiter’s troops went through France desecrating the
Catholic Churches…but he was a firm anti-communist.
People in the Vatican arranged for VISA’s so German War Criminals could escape
to Argentina. He was Catholic Bishop Alois Hudal was rector of the Pontificio Istituto Teutonico Santa Maria dell’Anima in Rome.
He did this because they were firm Anti-Communists…but they were war criminals
who should have gone to Nuremburg for trial. Clearly, he was not doing God’s work.

 

[Orthodox1047]

How about this then…Do you agree that abortion is wrong?

 

[Orthodox1047]

Then re-read it.
For years, the Church was obsessed with being anti-communist…Well, so was Hitler.
He blamed the fire of the Reichstag, he blamed it on the Communists.His people actually did it. Be careful
who you align yourself with. Hiter’s troops went through France desecrating the
Catholic Churches…but he was a firm anti-communist.
People in the Vatican arranged for VISA’s so German War Criminals could escape
to Argentina. He was Catholic Bishop Alois Hudal was rector of the Pontificio Istituto Teutonico Santa Maria dell’Anima in Rome.
He did this because they were firm Anti-Communists…but they were war criminals
who should have gone to Nuremburg for trial. Clearly, he was not doing God’s work.

The Church and Hiltler are incomparable The former is a gift from the Creator, the latter is a creature of God. The former is infallible, the latter evil. Whatever people in the Vatican did or did not do, this has nothing to do with this thread.

Question: Is abortion an evil to be avoided?

 

[palmharbor]

Clearly abortion is a serious wrong. So is an unjustified war…such as the
invasion of Iraq a nation that had NOTHING to do with September 11.
That invasion killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people by airforce
bombers, tanks, cannons etc. I don’t hear anyone concerned what was done
in the name of the american people.

 

[Orthodox1047]

Actually Pope JP II was aginst this type of war and Pope Benedict XVI has spoken along the same line. I do agree that it seems as if no-one cares, but I am quite certain that a vast minority of Christian people and others share your concerns. In this type of situation, Palmharbour, all we can do is pray and fast. Pax Vobiscum!

 

[Wowbagger]

Orthodox1047, what you just saw was Palm Harbor violating Godwin’s Law. The discussion with him can now safely be declared “ended.”

Much as I hate to say it, I have to largely agree with Beau here. I radically disagree with the school of thought that has reigned since the New Deal (which basically says that rulings of the Supreme Court, not the Constitution as interpreted by each branch within its sphere, are the supreme law of the land), but, if we grant for a moment that judges do have the power to interpret a right to an abortion into the Constitution, then it seems to me that lower-court judges who honestly believe rulings of the SCOTUS to be the binding law of the land cannot be held morally culpable for upholding such rulings. However, such a judge should seriously consider the moral gravity of his or her position and prudentially decide whether to remain a judge in a climate where the civil law has so debased the natural law against murder, especially of one’s own offspring. Such law cannot be binding outside a courtroom to any Catholic.

That being said, I do not believe a SCOTUS ruling is the supreme law of the land, and those judges who act accordingly and uphold the Constitutional right to life (Amendments V, XIV) should be applauded. However, if a Constitutional amendment were passed making the civil right to abortion explicit, even these judges, stripped of alternatives, would have to consider resignation.

SCOTUS judges who merely interpret a right to an abortion into the Constitution, on the other hand, should censured most severely, as there is no legal theory this side of perdition in which that right could be considered remotely just or constitutional. Yes, Anthony Kennedy, I am looking at you. He, personally, probably should be excommunicated.

Great question, OP. Very stimulating to think about.

 

[Orthodox1047]

Much as I hate to say it, I have to largely agree with Beau here. I radically disagree with the school of thought that has reigned since the New Deal (which basically says that rulings of the Supreme Court, not the Constitution as interpreted by each branch within its sphere, are the supreme law of the land),

Thank you for your excellent posting, which allows me to now understand that the question has validity. In my heart I knew the answer was “YES” but somehow the previous postings had clouded my judgement. We are all responsible for our actions no matter who we are. God is Love and Life. He is Creator. Life and Love must reign.

There is a tradition in many Usenet newsgroups that once such a comparison is made, the thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. In addition, it is considered poor form to invoke the law explicitly. Godwin’s law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups. Many people understand Godwin’s law to mean this, although (as is clear from the statement of the law above) this is not the original formulation.

 

[palmharbor]

The facts about Europe during the 1930’s are sticky things.
Perhaps you don’t let the facts get in the way of your opinions.

 

[otjm]

anytime anyone deliberately assists in the abortion of an unborn child they are already excommunicated. There has just not been the earthly paperwork and stuff. But, I am pretty sure it has already happened in heaven. It is a mortal sin.

And that answer is non-responsive to the question.

 

[palmharbor]

Who are you that anyone has to answer a question in a way that satisfies you?

Decisions about Abortion do not come before Judges…did you think everyone
who wants an abortion has to go before a judge? Therefore a “pro-abortion”
judge is a figment of your mind.

The judges who decided Roe v.Wade were on the Supreme Court only.
Some are still on the court others are gone. I don’t know any of those
who decided Roe were catholic so excommunication is meaningless.
I suggest you turn off Glenn Beck and Bill Bennett as they are authorities
on absolutely nothing.

 

[otjm]

Several of the answers to this thread are confirming my suspicion that although “conservatives” (I hate that word) complain until they are blue in the face about activist judges, they don’t really want to see judges that are not activist, they really just want to see activist judges that agree with them.

Perhaps; on the other hand, it is much more likely that it is simply a display of ignorance; most people don’t know squat about how the law works, what judges must do and must not do, and how proceedure and applicable law are applied.

 

[Orthodox1047]

Who are you that anyone has to answer a question in a way that satisfies you?

Decisions about Abortion do not come before Judges…did you think everyone
who wants an abortion has to go before a judge? Therefore a “pro-abortion”
judge is a figment of your mind.

The judges who decided Roe v.Wade were on the Supreme Court only.
Some are still on the court others are gone. I don’t know any of those
who decided Roe were catholic so excommunication is meaningless.
I suggest you turn off Glenn Beck and Bill Bennett as they are authorities
on absolutely nothing.

As I stated before, the question is really not well worded and does not lend itself to a proper discussion. In any case, as Catholics we must know that abortion is a mortal sin. I have a sense here that there is a mix of opinions on this thread and it bothers me that any Catholic would find loopholes for abortion. Also, some of the comments are either unnecessary or totally irrelevant. Could we try to maintain a certain civility?

 

[miguel]

…Let’s say that some pro-lifers are protesting in front of an abortion clinic and have blocked the entrance. Let’s also say a Catholic cop is one of the police officers called to the scene. Should he do his job and stop the protesters from blocking the entrance knowing that this will result in abortions being performed or should he refuse to move the protesters and loose his job?

Remember this man took an oath to server and protect, to uphold the law. Should he break his oath?

It could easily be argued that the judges who legalized abortion broke their oath to uphold the Constitution (i.e., the 14th Amendment requires the states to provide equal protection of the laws to any person under their jurisdiction).

 

[palmharbor]

If it could be “easily” argued Why did not Reagan, Bush I or Bush II not
make argument in the 20 years (240 months) that the nation had a Republican “pro-life” president?
During Bush II, we also had a Republican congress as well
The answer is they NEVER want this issue to go away. The want to squeeze
Catholics et al for votes every two years. Since the Constitution was amended
to permit Women to vote (over the judgement of the fathers of the nation) its
no longer an issue. Its done. If the constitution were amended to ban abortion,
it would go away as an issue and it could not be squeezed for votes.
Doctors would set up clinics in Mexico, Canada, Bahamas, Virgin Islands,
Caymen Islands where they would offer a package including air/hotel and the
abortion for one all inclusive price. I guarantee it.