Should salaries be capped?

[consumedconvert]

Keeping a minimum wage does nothing to ensure workers are treated like human beings nor does it ensure any sort of standard of living.

But it sure beats the alternative, which is “let the factory owners decide!”

And we see how that went in the Industrial Revolution. ALong with letting the factory owners decide on child labor and suitable working hours. Who needs any government regulation, the world is overpopulated anyway! sheesh!!



In other words, the benefits of a reasonable minimum wage, and other Government labor regulations, are definitely real.

Now should OSHA tell us that our desks must be so far apart from each other, or what kind of desk chairs we have to buy? I think not.

 

[vern_humphrey]

It has been known to happen, even to Wal-Mart…

You have a cite for this? You can tell us where Wal-Mart closed down a profitable store?

 

[consumedconvert]

You have a cite for this? You can tell us where Wal-Mart closed down a profitable
store?

Who would close a profitable store? I never argued that; but I argued that even Wal-Mart has been known to fail in some towns.

Wal-Mart Closing Clarksville, Texas Store

The Wal-Mart in Clarksville, Texas, one of the giant retailer’s first stores in Texas, will be closed at the end of the year because of sagging sales.

Wal-Mart has been in Clarksville for more than 30 years and employs 65 people there. Many of the employees will get severance packages or offers to transfer to other Wal-Mart stores.

For the people of Clarksville, they’ll have to find another place to shop.

…

Clarksville City Manager Doug Smith said the good news from the closure is that it gives a smaller retailer a chance to come into town.

organicconsumers.org/articles/article_8331.cfm

 

[vern_humphrey]

:dts:
and how exactly does somebody survive on less (or at) $5.50 per hour?

Ah, this is where someone trots out the mythical hardworking man on minimum wage with an invalid wife and 13 crippled children.

Most people on minimum wage are the young, just getting their feet on the economic ladder, and supplemental wage earners.

Now it’s my turn to ask a question: and how exactly does somebody survive on $0 per hour? Because that’s what people get when their jobs go away, are exported, or are taken over by the labor Black Market.

Jobs have been exported because of the option of using cheap labor in developing nations.

“Cheap” is a relative term. When we keep pushing up the minimum wage, we contribute to inflation, price our unskilled laborers out of the market and give the advantage to nations overseas.

Those people live in worker dorms, work 14 hour days, 6 days a week, so how much opportunity for upskilling or advancement do they have and how much would an american worker have if they were forced to compete.

They also have to ship their products thousands of miles – and that adds to the cost. Had our government held inflation down, not kept bumping up the minimum wage, and insured all Americans got a good education, foreign workers couldn’t out-compete us on anything.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Who would close a profitable store? I never argued that; but I argued that even Wal-Mart has been known to fail in some towns.

But before Wal-Mart fails, the town has to fail.

It isn’t Wal-Mart pulling out that drags down the local economy, it’s the local economy that makes the local Wal-Mart unprofitable.

 

[krimshas]

They also have to ship their products thousands of miles – and that adds to the cost. Had our government held inflation down, not kept bumping up the minimum wage, and insured all Americans got a good education, foreign workers couldn’t out-compete us on anything.

Not true in the case of the Chinese, unfortunately. No American general merchandise manufacturer could compete when the Chinese government keeps the Yuan “pegged” to the dollar, causing it to be undervalued by 40% or more. Essentially this is a heavy government subsidy, and that often combined with third-world labor conditions equals unfair and in fact unbeatable competition. But they can’t keep it pegged forever. Maybe then the US manufacturing industry can make a comeback.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Not true in the case of the Chinese, unfortunately.

China is not on the other side of the Pacific? It does’t cost money to ship stuff across the ocean?

No American general merchandise manufacturer could compete when the Chinese government keeps the Yuan “pegged” to the dollar, causing it to be undervalued by 40% or more. Essentially this is a heavy government subsidy, and that often combined with third-world labor conditions equals unfair and in fact unbeatable competition. But they can’t keep it pegged forever. Maybe then the US manufacturing industry can make a comeback

Your claim cuts both ways – **if **China is subsidizing Chinese industry, they are also subsidizing the US consumer. And China as a whole is running in the red.

 

[estesbob]

:dts:
and how exactly does somebody survive on less (or at) $5.50 per hour? Jobs have been exported because of the option of using cheap labor in developing nations. Those people live in worker dorms, work 14 hour days, 6 days a week, so how much opportunity for upskilling or advancement do they have and how much would an american worker have if they were forced to compete.

The overwhelming majoritysurvive on minimum wage because they live with their parents.

 

[roanoker]

Who gets to decide which CEO’s get capped, and at what amount? What about movie stars, rappers, pro athletes, really successful salesmen, and the other fields of endeavor in which “insane salaries” are made? Keep in mind, to peasants in Africa, Asia, etc., a salary of say $40,000 per year is obscene. Should we cap the salaries of people who make this kind of money and send it to all the poor people? What about all the gold and silver and valuable stained glass windows in our churches? Should we not just tear all this stuff out, melt it down, and re-distribute it? Is this not just making everyone equally miserable? That is what the communists preach. We can never have a perfectly equal society, I’m afraid. Remember Jesus said the poor will always be with us. I don’t know why this has to be, but Jesus said it, so I believe it. By the way, some CEO’s are so brilliant and innovative, and have so much leadership and courage, that they are worth their wages. Their shareholders demand much, and are willing to pay for it. That’s capitalism, and that’s better than the alternatives, I believe…

 

[Al_Masetti]

When people are just starting out, they tend to have low salaries or low hourly pay.

As they acquire what we call a better skill-set, then their compensation increases.

You can cut grass with a manal push-mower and not be terribly productive. If you offer to cut people’s lawns with a hand mower you won’t make much money.

But, if you borrow your dad’s walk-behind gas mower, you can make more money.

If you use your income from lawn mowing to buy CD’s and movie tickets and buying a round at the bar or on-line gambling or some other distraction, you will continue to plod along behind that walkie mower.

OR you could INVEST in a riding mower and a trailer and do many lawns in one day and make a great deal more money.

Many people do that and make a very decent income.

I know one fellow who went from part-time lawn mowing as an income supplement to having a full-time nursery/gardening center with eight employees … has a large building and a fleet of vehicles and is doing very nicely for himself and his family … and his employees’ families.

And he did it in a very few years.

Can’t do that … can’t build up investment “CAPITAL” … if someone’s income / salary is capped.

 

[stinkcat_14]

The overwhelming majoritysurvive on minimum wage because they live with their parents.

From the data I have seen, about 49% of minimum wage earners are over 25, so it is a pretty safe bet that these people are not living with their parents. About 25% are between 16-19, so these people probably are living with their parents. The rest are between 20-24, so some are probably living with their parents and some probably aren’t.

So, it would be more accurate to say that a significant fraction, but by no means a majority survive on the minimum wage because they live with their parents. My data comes from the 2006 Characteristics of Minimum wage workers published by the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

 

[vern_humphrey]

From the data I have seen, about 49% of minimum wage earners are over 25, so it is a pretty safe bet that these people are not living with their parents. About 25% are between 16-19, so these people probably are living with their parents. The rest are between 20-24, so some are probably living with their parents and some probably aren’t.

So, it would be more accurate to say that a significant fraction, but by no means a majority survive on the minimum wage because they live with their parents. My data comes from the 2006 Characteristics of Minimum wage workers published by the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

Now, go back to that site and tell us what fraction of those over 25 are primary wage earners.

As I said earlier, many minimum wage earners are secondary earners – a working wife who has a husband also working.

 

[stinkcat_14]

Now, go back to that site and tell us what fraction of those over 25 are primary wage earners.

As I said earlier, many minimum wage earners are secondary earners – a working wife who has a husband also working.

I am not disputing that, I am just correcting what Bob was saying.
When statistics are so easy to obtain, there is no excuse for being sloppy.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I am not disputing that, I am just correcting what Bob was saying.
When statistics are so easy to obtain, there is no excuse for being sloppy.

But you are giving the impression that many people survive on minimum wage – and that’s not right.

Now, tell us how many people, total earn mimimum wage.

 

[stinkcat_14]

But you are giving the impression that many people survive on minimum wage – and that’s not right.

Now, tell us how many people, total earn mimimum wage.

I gave no such impression, my comment was strictly related to correcting what Bob said, which was that the overwhelming majority of people receiving the minimum wage live with their parents. The evidence does not support his hypothesis.

As to your second question, very few people receive the minimum wage. In my opinion, there is more heat than light in most discussions of the minimum wage which is why it is so important to get the facts straight. I myself am against the minimum wage, but I see the minimum wage as it currently exists, but I think we have to be honest enough to look at the data and realize that the minimimum wage is a minor issue in our economy.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I gave no such impression, my comment was strictly related to correcting what Bob said, which was that the overwhelming majority of people receiving the minimum wage live with their parents. The evidence does not support his hypothesis.

As to your second question, very few people receive the minimum wage. In my opinion, there is more heat than light in most discussions of the minimum wage which is why it is so important to get the facts straight. I myself am against the minimum wage, but I see the minimum wage as it currently exists, but I think we have to be honest enough to look at the data and realize that the minimimum wage is a minor issue in our economy.

Minor to all but those whose jobs went away, or were exported overseas, or given to the labor Black Market, or who cannot get a job because their skills simply won’t equal the cost of employing them.

 

[stinkcat_14]

Minor to all but those whose jobs went away, or were exported overseas, or given to the labor Black Market, or who cannot get a job because their skills simply won’t equal the cost of employing them.

This of course, is an empirical question. So, how many jobs are lost because of the minimum wage?

 

[vern_humphrey]

This of course, is an empirical question. So, how many jobs are lost because of the minimum wage?

Simply count the low-skill, low-paid jobs that either don’t exist (gas station attendant, for example) or went overseas (shirt making, a mainstay at one time in the Ozarks.) Then all in all the illegals working in the construction and other industries.

Walter Williams points out that in the 1940s, when the minimum wage was so low that no one offered that little, Black teenagers had the same employment rate as White teenagers. Now their employment rate is only about 1/3 that of Whites – and teenage employment is a strong predictor of future economic success.

 

[stinkcat_14]

Simply count the low-skill, low-paid jobs that either don’t exist (gas station attendant, for example) or went overseas (shirt making, a mainstay at one time in the Ozarks.) Then all in all the illegals working in the construction and other industries.

Walter Williams points out that in the 1940s, when the minimum wage was so low that no one offered that little, Black teenagers had the same employment rate as White teenagers. Now their employment rate is only about 1/3 that of Whites – and teenage employment is a strong predictor of future economic success.

Actually, if you look at the pay distribution for cashiers, of which gas stations are a major employer, the data shows that 90% make more than $6.18 per hour, so the minimum wage isn’t causing much unemployment here. Similarly, in the apparrel industry, the lowest paid jobs average $9 per hour, so the minimum wage doesn’t seem to be a binding constraint here either.

Finally, while I think Walter Williams is a good economist, I would imagine that changes in family structure and educational attainment are more important factors influencing the employment rate.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Actually, if you look at the pay distribution for cashiers, of which gas stations are a major employer, the data shows that 90% make more than $6.18 per hour, so the minimum wage isn’t causing much unemployment here.

Not “cashiers,” but attendants – the kid who came out and said, “Fill 'er up, Sir?” and offered to wash your windshield and check your oil and tire pressure.

Similarly, in the apparrel industry, the lowest paid jobs average $9 per hour, so the minimum wage doesn’t seem to be a binding constraint here either.

They do now – after all the lower-paying jobs were exported.

Finally, while I think Walter Williams is a good economist, I would imagine that changes in family structure and educational attainment are more important factors influencing the employment rate.

I wouldn’t put words into Walter William’s mouth – but he already answered this one, "Were Black teenagers better educated in the 1940s, compared to Whites?

The answer to that is, no.