Should salaries be capped?

[estesbob]

Why do people always invoke jealousy especially here? That doesn’t happen as much on the IIDB forums… I bet you think the United States is the greatest developed country with its high (in the .40s) gini coefficient compared to other nations.

No wonder why jealousy is prevalent. Yeah, those poor people who don’t have health insurance shouldn’t be jealousy; they do not deserve it.

hdr.undp.org/en/media/hdr_20072008_tables.pdf

Beause one of the major political party thrives ONLY by invoking class envy. Becaus there are far too many people who think tyhe definition of compasiion is taking my money and giving it to someone else.

I have no idea IIDB is but I am sure it is a forum for super smart, altruistic people who want nothing more than to selflessly serve the needs of mankind.

 

[ribozyme]

Beause one of the major political party thrives ONLY by invoking class envy. Becaus there are far too many people who think tyhe definition of compasiion is taking my money and giving it to someone else.

I have no idea IIDB is but I am sure it is a forum for super smart, altruistic people who want nothing more than to selflessly serve the needs of mankind.

The inequality stats are available in the HDR link… trust me, it is extremely difficult invoke “inequality” as a problem in the economic systems of Scandinavia.

Well, no rationally-minded person advocates extreme redistribution; it results in the loss in incentives and causes pernicious free-riding effects. However, I think it is possible to design a welfare system that provides incentives for not free-riding (e.g. having children when you do not have the means to afford it and expecting the state to pay for it). Of course, in most theories of distributive justice, inequality is acceptable if it benefits society in general. It can be concluded that a mild form of inequality is indeed acceptable.

I guess the people in IIDB do not need to invoke envy because they do not need to remind poor people that their treasure is in heaven namely because most of the people there are secularists, and some people are even MORE left-winged than I am in that milieu.

 

[Al_Masetti]

Starting a business doesn’t have to be high tech.

Debbi Fields started small.

mrsfields.com/about/

Keep in mind that there needs to be the right combination of skills … knowing how to do the basic job, plus quality control, personnnel recruiting, promotional ability, cash management, tax management, legal permitting and licensing, location, confidence, and finding the target market. And the successful entrepreneur will need to be able to combine all of those factors and more … usually in one person … himself or herself … at least for starters. So, while there are many many successful small businesses, there are many failures as well. It’s all part of the mix.

On the other hand, envy (the desire to take down a successful person) is a cardinal sin.

 

[ribozyme]

Starting a business doesn’t have to be high tech.

Debbi Fields started small.

mrsfields.com/about/

Keep in mind that there needs to be the right combination of skills … knowing how to do the basic job, plus quality control, personnnel recruiting, promotional ability, cash management, tax management, legal permitting and licensing, location, confidence, and finding the target market. And the successful entrepreneur will need to be able to combine all of those factors and more … usually in one person … himself or herself … at least for starters. So, while there are many many successful small businesses, there are many failures as well. It’s all part of the mix.

On the other hand, envy (the desire to take down a successful person) is a cardinal sin.

The stereotypical kid with a lemonade stand now…

Well, I forgot to add legal fees in my example of sell pharmaceuticals. Of course, I do not want anyone else to take my high-risk compound (let’s pretend it inhibits IGF-1R kinase activity) which my company had to expend vasts resources in animal testing and in expensive, tenuous human trials. Of course, patents are pragmatically necessary to prevent free-riding effects though.

And yes… I do not see how wishing for Bill Gates to fail financially will help anyone.

 

[estesbob]

The inequality stats are available in the HDR link… trust me, it is extremely difficult invoke “inequality” as a problem in the economic systems of Scandinavia.

Well, no rationally-minded person advocates extreme redistribution; it results in the loss in incentives and causes pernicious free-riding effects. However, I think it is possible to design a welfare system that provides incentives for not free-riding (e.g. having children when you do not have the means to afford it and expecting the state to pay for it). Of course, in most theories of distributive justice, inequality is acceptable if it benefits society in general. It can be concluded that a mild form of inequality is indeed acceptable.

I guess the people in IIDB do not need to invoke envy because they do not need to remind poor people that their treasure is in heaven namely because most of the people there are secularists, and some people are even MORE left-winged than I am in that milieu.

Scandavia has one of the highest tax rates in the indusrialized world. they also have one of the hignest rates of ilegitimacy in the world. They are also have a population about as much as NY City. Hardly a valid comparison.

As i said i am sure that over at IIBD you are all wise and wonderful and want nothing more than help those who are less enlighgtened than yourselvs make their way through the world…

 

[estesbob]

The stereotypical kid with a lemonade stand now…

Well, I forgot to add legal fees in my example of sell pharmaceuticals. Of course, I do not want anyone else to take my high-risk compound (let’s pretend it inhibits IGF-1R kinase activity) which my company had to expend vasts resources in animal testing and in expensive, tenuous human trials. Of course, patents are pragmatically necessary to prevent free-riding effects though.

You are perfect exmale of why only a few have the nerve to start their own business. Rather than try and figure out how you can do it you construct a list of why it cant be done.

As far as the stereotypical kid with the lemonaide stand what is there in your life experience that tells you this wont work?

 

[ribozyme]

Scandavia has one of the highest tax rates in the indusrialized world. they also have one of the hignest rates of ilegitimacy in the world. They are also have a population about as much as NY City. Hardly a valid comparison.

As i said i am sure that over at IIBD you are all wise and wonderful and want nothing more than help those who are less enlighgtened than yourselvs make their way through the world…

Illegitimacy? Nothing to do with quality of life. It certainly concerns people who advocate “family values” though, but not quality of life. Of course, Pareto inefficient measures (taxation as opposed to charity) would be necessary for the construction of a welfare state.

Well, I do like your smarmy tone when describing that secularist website. I should emulate on particular poster there that calls people “market evangelists” as a pejorative and loves to promote central planning. (I even roll my eyes when reading his posts.) I do realize the flaws of a aristocracy and dictatorships to lead the masses though. I do not think power should be concentrated within the hands of the few (whether they are wealthy or “enlightened” because of inimical facets of human nature that evolved in the our African primate ancestors.) It is also the same reason why I have an aversion to extreme inequality.

 

[cynic]

So, Cynic, how come wages haven’t plunged already? If your reasoning is correct, people making above minimum wage should already have seen their wages plunge to minimum wage.

How come this hasn’t already happened?

as *you *originally stated, the minimum wage effects what those paid moderately above it get. Semi skilled workers are paid an amount more, *relative *to the minimum. If all lowish wages have to be raised when the minimum is (as you stated) then it’s reasonable to assume that when the bottom is taken out of the wage structure, then all low wages will drop. (The reasoning might be, well if I no longer have to pay the guys packing boxes $6.00 - if they are now getting much less - then why should I continue to pay the person who checks the stock $9.00 an hour)

The motivation would be to give the most unskilled and poorly-educated a chance to get their foot on the bottom rung of th economic ladder, of course!

As I said before that assumes that employers pay as much as they can, rather than as little and that there are a large number of people on welfare because they are too costly to employ. Are you happy to pay tax to help top up the wages of people earning less than they can survive on?

 

[cynic]

:ehh: sheesh, from the tone of some the later replies, I wonder if low income, non self-employed workers would even get to influence the political system at all if it we were up to some people here.

Perhaps someone should start a new topic : “Should the poor be able to vote?”. Look forward to that one.

 

[rlg94086]

:ehh: sheesh, from the tone of some the later replies, I wonder if low income, non self-employed workers would even get to influence the political system at all if it we were up to some people here.

Perhaps someone should start a new topic : “Should the poor be able to vote?”. Look forward to that one.

Go for it. All it takes is clicking that little “new thread” button.

…sounds like a boring topic though, and I don’t see anyone on this thread who would oppose voting for the poor.

 

[D317]

First of all I’d like to say that melensdad ROCKS!!

I’m very interested in social justice, especially how it is applied in the workplace. If anyone is serious about this topic, please contact me.

There shouldn’t be an “cap” on the ability of people to perform in their vocation. We are all called to a vocation which is set within God’s plan. The Church recognizes that “talents” are not equally distributed as it is also part of God’s plan to have such differences. Those with more are obliged to give more to those less fortunate.

If Bill Gates could only make $1 million/year he would have never been able to give $1 Billion to increase vaccinations around the world.

If we are willing to accept a lowering of the “ceiling” in the name of social justice we must also be willing to accept a lowering of the “floor.” Who wants to sign up for lowering the minimum wage to $1.50/hr? After all, that would only be “fair” since the CEO has more responsibility than the minimum wage worker, right? That probably makes all the middle management salaries about $14,000 and admin around $4,000. That is if we truly want social justice for ALL.

This thread is all about class envy & coveting thy neighbors goods. REPENT! Go to confession and then read a good book on economics so that you all understand how our economy works and what doesn’t work. The Catholic Church is no place for socialism or communism.

 

[stinkcat_14]

There are people who firmly believe their imagination trumps everyone else’s real-world experience.

Vern, I have to agree with you here.

In Bob’s imaginationthe overwhelming majority of minimum wage earners are teenagers who live with their parents. I hope you noticed how silent he became when presented with the facts.

In your imagination, you think that the minimum wage causes illegitamite births and drug addiction. Of course, you never seem to present data that supports your hyptotheses.

So, I would like to point out that what is important here are the facts of the situation, not the commentors employer.

 

[stinkcat_14]

Does your limited experience includes starting and operating your own business.?

Yes, I have my own business, but I am also a tenured professor.

And if you don’t want to depend on the experience of those who run businesses just what do you think should be depended on?

I never said that we should not rely on the experience of people in business, what I said is that we should not rely solely on such people. After all, you are a business owner and you have proven very readily that you can be very sloppy with the facts. Why should we restrict ourselves to just one source of information?

Tenured professors who have no or Word experience?

Are you a tenured professor? If not, why should we listen to your opinions about tenured professors? Just because you are too afraid to quit your job and get a Ph.D and then go through the tenure process at a university, what makes you think that you have the ability to comment on those who work in academia?

Now, getting back to your question, some tenured professors have real world experience and some don’t. What is relevent here, is whether or not the tenured professor in question is stating hypotheses that are supported by the facts. I notice that the facts on this forum tend to get ignored. Vern thinks that the minimum wage causes massive unemployment, but do you notice that he can’t produce an estimate of the actual number of people who have lost jobs? People here state hypotheses as facts and totally ignore whether there statements are supported by the data.

 

[mary_bobo]

As the economist on this thread, I can vouch for the fact that Vern knows as much about economics as the average congressman.

Please review forum rules. This comment, and others you have made on this topic, really have no place here. I am sure with your education you can comment and instruct without snide remarks.

 

[Kielbasi]

Here’s a novel idea culled straight (more or less) from Distributist theory:

Would it be morally superior to cap the total compensation of CEOs and other top execs? Say, to $1 mil annually?

The idea is based on a false premise, that total income is a fixed amount and the only question is distribution of that income.

The facts are that income is rising, and production and compensation are intimately related. Capping the amount of income of top earners and producers will also cap their productivity. Once they reach their peak, there won’t be any motivation for further economic productivity.

The increase in productivity that these top individuals create really increases the total income of the economy by more that the top producers actually receive in increased income.

 

[ribozyme]

Please review forum rules. This comment, and others you have made on this topic, really have no place here. I am sure with your education you can comment and instruct without snide remarks.

This thread is degraded; people are blaming each other for “class envy” and has some hints of anti-intellectualism along with anti-secularism.

There shouldn’t be an “cap” on the ability of people to perform in their vocation. We are all called to a vocation which is set within God’s plan. The Church recognizes that “talents” are not equally distributed as it is also part of God’s plan to have such differences. Those with more are obliged to give more to those less fortunate.

Gee… I thought the people on this forum loathe communism so much. God’s plan??? Sounds like an “astute” central planner such as Mao who conceived the Great Leap Backward.

God’s plan? Look at the world… Many countries in Africa have a GDP-PPP less than 2,000 USD and many diseases such as HIV and tuberculous are rampant. Just like in China, the central planner is responsible for immense suffering and injustice.

Do you want to know what grevious consequences that the inequality of ability has caused? Read *IQ and Global Inequality *which I have done and I am reluctant to talk about their content in depth here or on IIDB. I said too much, just parse the wiki.

 

[estesbob]

Yes, I have my own business, but I am also a tenured professor.

I.

With employees? And if your business fails are you back looking for a livlihood ar do you fall back on your “real” job.

Should we cap the salaries of tenured professors to say a factor of their students salary? How about we cap your salary at 5 times the average earnings of your students. And while we are at it why doesnt the govt step in and mandate the number of hours you must spend teaching in the classroom every week. Lets say we set it at 40. That sound ok to you?

 

[consumedconvert]

This thread is all about class envy & coveting thy neighbors goods. REPENT! Go to confession and then read a good book on economics so that you all understand how our economy works and what doesn’t work. The Catholic Church is no place for socialism or communism.

Then I guess the great Catholic thinkers who have supported distributism in the past (like Chesterton, Belloc, et al.) should repent too? I’m sure all them were envious communists who didn’t have any money. I mean, that can be the only reason for wanting to help the poor–why, because you are poor! All things must be tied to self interest, right?

This is not about “class envy.” It’s about economic theory, and the contention that right now the economy isn’t working as well as it could.

And no, this is not about socialism or communism either. Distributists argue, in fact, that some form of socialism or communism is really the final destination of capitalism. It should be noted that the Popes who have written on economic issues have criticized some effects of capitalism (like the hoarding of goods and a denial of the universal destination of goods) as well as socialism. SO stop hurling anathemas, lest they ricochet.

**One suggestion I’ve made has been pretty much ignored, and that is that instead of focusing on the $1 Mil benchmark, perhaps CEOs and other top execs compensation should be pegged to the compensation of the average worker. Would it really be such a horrible thing if, say, the top earner of a company could not have total compensation above 10 times (or 8x, or less) what the average employee makes?

This makes sense, especially for publicly traded companies. It would make the management realize that their destiny is tied to their employees; so if they want to be taken care of, they should take care of their people.
**
Or would that be “pandering to the worker” too much? (Right now our system tends to pander to the CEO, but never mind; there is no such thing as corporate greed…)

 

[consumedconvert]

Once and for all, I wish we could leave the whole “class envy” red herring behind us. Can we have a conversation like adults? Most people here (myself included) probably would not see their compensation go up if either of my suggestions were implemented, because they would mostly effect the guys at Wal-Mart and other low-wage earners, most of whom probably do not hang out here. So the average person here has nothing to gain by it, financially speaking. So let’s move on, hmm?

 

[consumedconvert]

With employees? And if your business fails are you back looking for a livlihood ar do you fall back on your “real” job.

Should we cap the salaries of tenured professors to say a factor of their students salary? How about we cap your salary at 5 times the average earnings of your students. And while we are at it why doesnt the govt step in and mandate the number of hours you must spend teaching in the classroom every week. Lets say we set it at 40. That sound ok to you?

If he spends 40 hours a week teaching, I certainly feel sorry for him!!!

What’s with the Ad Hominum? Now you sound like the guy shouldn’t be a professor and a business owner as well.

His students (presumably) don’t work for him, so your suggestion doesn’t make sense.