Should salaries be capped?

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Ok–very nice! Thanks vern.
Another example is Bradshaw, of Bradshaw Auto Parts (now BAP-GEON). He didn’t even pay himself enough to buy a brief case – he carried papers in a cardboard box, and built shelves in his office out of planks and 2 X 4s.
 
My point is, capitalism is an economic system with three characteristics:
  1. Private owership of the means of production and distribution.
  2. Operated for profit
  3. In a competitive environment.
Now when you say your ideas “have certain anti-capitalist elements,” which of those three characteristics do you oppose?

I suspect you don’t oppose any of them – so when you say your ideas “have certain anti-capitalist elements” you mischaracterize your own position. Try explaining it a little more clearly. It might help if you held the definition of capitalism firmly in mind as you do so.
Capitalism as such has a tendency to descend into monopoly, or a form of oligarchy–lots of money (which equals political power, like it or not) in very few hands. Just look at the banking industry–mergers, buyouts, and takeovers. Take a look at Wal-Mart, the only company I know that can easily swallow up the local grocer, pharmacist, and garden nursery in one fell swoop. More and more money is going into fewer and fewer hands. Doesn’t that make anyone else nervous?

There is, of course, an economic theory out there which would favor the small shopowner over the international mega-retailer. The small shopowner, I would argue, should always be preferred.

Hmmm, all of this is getting pretty off-topic; maybe it’ time to start a new thread.
 
Allow me to indulge…an 80s song just came to mind… 😃
There’s nothing wrong with Capitalism
There’s nothing wrong with free enterprise
Don’t try to make me feel guilty
I’m so tired of hearing you cry
There’s nothing wrong with making some profit
If you ask me I’ll say it’s just fine
There’s nothing wrong with wanting to live nice
I’m so tired of hearing you whine
About the revolution
Bringin’ down the rich
When was the last time you dug a ditch, baby?!
😛 Sorry…a little Oingo Boing nostalgia that will probably be lost on 95% of the forum participants. I promise not to do it again…unless I have to. 😃
 
Another example is Bradshaw, of Bradshaw Auto Parts (now BAP-GEON). He didn’t even pay himself enough to buy a brief case – he carried papers in a cardboard box, and built shelves in his office out of planks and 2 X 4s.
Not that any CEO needs to live like a pauper…lol, but wow, these are stories of humble CEO’s in my book. Nice to hear! Thanks for sharing!
 
It would be awe inspiring however, to see a CEO of a top company, take a pay cut, in order to not lose employees who are working from paycheck to paycheck, like many. Does anyone know of any stories like that?
I rose from salesman to sales manager to purchasing manager to vice president to president. Along the way the company grew to nearly $150 million in annual sales before I left. During my tenure I helped engineer an employee buy-out of the company (E.S.O.P.). When we had a bad year I was the first to take a pay cut, in fact I would often over rule others in management and prevent them from suffering a pay cut even if they volunteered one. When I announced my retirement I agreed to a stock price limit on the stock I had accumulated, if the value of the stock exceeded a set level then I would split the excess proceeds with the employees. The value of the proceeds was DOUBLE the estimates of an independent fiduciary. There are many things that can be accomplished by a motivated workforce and dedicated team.

For whatever it is worth, I’m 47 years old. I’m retired. I’ve just started a new new retail enterprise this year, and I’m spending much of my available time working to help our parish school increase enrollment.

There are many good people out there, many are in management and many are CEOs.
 
Capitalism as such has a tendency to descend into monopoly, or a form of oligarchy–lots of money (which equals political power, like it or not) in very few hands.
No, capitalism does not have a tendency to descend into monopoly. Nor does it have a tendency to descend into feudalism, communism, or any other system. People have a tendency to abuse power and try to pervert any system. But monopoly is the antithesis of Capitalism.
Just look at the banking industry–mergers, buyouts, and takeovers. Take a look at Wal-Mart, the only company I know that can easily swallow up the local grocer, pharmacist, and garden nursery in one fell swoop. More and more money is going into fewer and fewer hands. Doesn’t that make anyone else nervous?
This is degenerating into another “I hate business and especially Wal-Mart” thread.
There is, of course, an economic theory out there which would favor the small shopowner over the international mega-retailer. The small shopowner, I would argue, should always be preferred.
Ah, a luddite.😛
Hmmm, all of this is getting pretty off-topic; maybe it’ time to start a new thread.
Indeed it is.
 
I rose from salesman to sales manager to purchasing manager to vice president to president. Along the way the company grew to nearly $150 million in annual sales before I left. During my tenure I helped engineer an employee buy-out of the company (E.S.O.P.). When we had a bad year I was the first to take a pay cut, in fact I would often over rule others in management and prevent them from suffering a pay cut even if they volunteered one. When I announced my retirement I agreed to a stock price limit on the stock I had accumulated, if the value of the stock exceeded a set level then I would split the excess proceeds with the employees. The value of the proceeds was DOUBLE the estimates of an independent fiduciary. There are many things that can be accomplished by a motivated workforce and dedicated team.

For whatever it is worth, I’m 47 years old. I’m retired. I’ve just started a new new retail enterprise this year, and I’m spending much of my available time working to help our parish school increase enrollment.

There are many good people out there, many are in management and many are CEOs.
That is an amazing story–I appreciate you sharing it. I know there are plenty of good CEO’s out there. I think for some reason, that many associate someone’s net worth with greed and lack of humility. Someone can be wealthy, and still be very philanthropic, etc…God never said we had to live without wealth. It’s love of wealth, that is sinful.

So, melansdad…I’m an Asst VP in Sales…is there hope for me, yet?😃
 
No, capitalism does not have a tendency to descend into monopoly. Nor does it have a tendency to descend into feudalism, communism, or any other system. People have a tendency to abuse power and try to pervert any system. But monopoly is the antithesis of Capitalism.
But doesn’t that amount to the same thing?
Isn’t it people’s abuse of power and perversion of the system that leads in the direction of a monopoly? Monopoly might be the antithesis of capitalism,but how many ambitious businessmen really care about preserving a competitive environment when they have the opportunity to dominate by putting their rivals out of business or co-opting them? That’s part of the game,and as far as aggressive businesspeople are concerned,that’s the point of the game. Ambitious people compete not just for the sake of friendly competition,but in order to eventually dominate the playing field that they’re in. Capitalism is relativistic in nature,and so it allows for the law of the jungle to prevail.
 
But doesn’t that amount to the same thing?
No, it doesn’t.
Isn’t it people’s abuse of power and perversion of the system that leads in the direction of a monopoly?
If your theory were true, then how do you explain countries that went from capitalism to communism? Or those who went from feudalism to communism?

It’s like saying eating bread causes cancer – because most people who have cancer ate bread.
Monopoly might be the antithesis of capitalism,but how many ambitious businessmen really care about preserving a competitive environment when they have the opportunity to dominate by putting their rivals out of business or co-opting them?
Virtually all businessmen want competition – monopolies are difficult to maintain and normally collapse of their own weight. They are inherently unstable.
That’s part of the game,and as far as aggressive businesspeople are concerned,that’s the point of the game.
Can you give us the names of these “aggressive businesspeople” and show us where they have said that?
Ambitious people compete not just for the sake of friendly competition,but in order to eventually dominate the playing field that they’re in.
Capitalism does’t permit individuals to “dominate the field” because of its inherent competition. If one person “corners the market” in say, diapers, it won’t be long before other people begin to manufacture substitutes.
Capitalism is relativistic in nature,and so it allows for the law of the jungle to prevail.
You say that, but offer no evidence.

And if you think about it, the sentence is nonsense – you might as well say, “The sky is relativistic in nature.”
 
Virtually all businessmen want competition – monopolies are difficult to maintain and normally collapse of their own weight. They are inherently unstable.
Do you have any data to back up the idea that business people favor competition over monopoly? It would seem to fly in the face of what I see happening in the marketplace. For example, the cable companies in my state are trying to prevent A t and t from entering the cable tv market. Also, the pharmaceutical companies frequently engage in lawsuits to extend the length of their patents, which helps them maintain monopoly power before the drug goes into the public domain.
 
Do you have any data to back up the idea that business people favor competition over monopoly?
Do you have any data to back up the idea that they don’t?

Go and look – businesses cut prices, offer new and improved products, spend $$$ in Research and Development – all in the pursuit of competition.
It would seem to fly in the face of what I see happening in the marketplace.
Then I suggest you’re turning a blind eye to what’s happening and refusing to see things that don’t agree with your pre-conceptions.
For example, the cable companies in my state are trying to prevent A t and t from entering the cable tv market.
So how do they deal with Direct TV and Dish Network?😃
Also, the pharmaceutical companies frequently engage in lawsuits to extend the length of their patents, which helps them maintain monopoly power before the drug goes into the public domain.
Cite?

Let me point out what you have seen and refused to recognize – the fact that the companies developed the drugs at all! If they were not in competition with other drug companies, why would they develop new drugs? Why would they take the huge risks of sinking billions in R&D?
 
Do you have any data to back up the idea that they don’t?
All I can say is that in my professional experience, all the evidence that I have seen from the actual behavior of people in the economy, is that business people usually tend to try and keep out competition whenever they can. For example, a number of years back the American Medical Association was lobbying to keep Nurse Practitioners out of the marketplace. Or when the government bailed out Chrysler 25 years ago, Ford and GM were against the bailout. Or in the 1960’s when MCI wanted to enter the long distance telephone industry, A T and T lobbied against it.
Go and look – businesses cut prices, offer new and improved products, spend $$$ in Research and Development – all in the pursuit of competition.
Competition is great, for the consumer, but firms usually would be better off without competition, because they could then charge higher prices and make higher profits. If Intel had a monopoly on computer chips, we would probably still be using 486’s.
Then I suggest you’re turning a blind eye to what’s happening and refusing to see things that don’t agree with your pre-conceptions.
My preconception is simple (although in economics, we would call them assumptions): people in the marketplace, act in their own self interest. If keeping out competition is in a business person’s self interest, they will try to do that. I didn’t say that there wasn’t competition in the marketplace, there is and it is a very good thing. But I have never met anybody who when faced with having more competition or less competition in his business, actually wanted more.
So how do they deal with Direct TV and Dish Network?😃
Dish and directtv provide competition which is great for consumers. It means the cable company has competition, but are the cable companies glad that the satellite companies are in business, from the behavior I have seen vis a vis A T and T, I would argue no.
The following is from a law firm that specializes in helping pharmaceutical firms extend their patents:

buchananingersoll.com/news.php?NewsID=1647
Let me point out what you have seen and refused to recognize – the fact that the companies developed the drugs at all! If they were not in competition with other drug companies, why would they develop new drugs? Why would they take the huge risks of sinking billions in R&D?
Where did I refuse to recognize this? I said nothing about the benefits of competition. Certainly, drug companies spend lots of money on R and D, and they have to because of competition. That is a great benefit, much of which accrues to consumers. Nor did I say that the patent system was wrong. But, when faced with a choice of more competition or less competition, which are businesses going to choose. From the evidence I have seen, they prefer less competition.
 
Where did I refuse to recognize this? I said nothing about the benefits of competition. Certainly, drug companies spend lots of money on R and D, and they have to because of competition. That is a great benefit, much of which accrues to consumers. Nor did I say that the patent system was wrong. But, when faced with a choice of more competition or less competition, which are businesses going to choose. From the evidence I have seen, they prefer less competition.
Then you haven’t seen much.
 
Then you haven’t seen much.
Once again, please cite some evidence. I have given several examples of businesses lobbying to keep out competition. You have yet to come up with one example of a business lobbying to get more competition in their own industry.
 
Once again, please cite some evidence. I have given several examples of businesses lobbying to keep out competition.
And by and large, they failed, did they not?

You cited cable TV, for example, and ignored the sattelite providers, giving us a distorted picture.
You have yet to come up with one example of a business lobbying to get more competition in their own industry.
Lobbying to get more competition in their own industry? Lobbying to get more competition in their own industry?

You do have a strange view of economics!:eek:
 
Lobbying to get more competition in their own industry? Lobbying to get more competition in their own industry?

You do have a strange view of economics!:eek:
Your claim was that businessmen prefer competition over monopoly. Now if that is true, that means they would want more competitors, if they lobby to keep competitors out, then that would suggest that you are wrong. To prove you are right, you would have to show that businesses lobby to get more competitors in their industry. Which of course, you cannot do.
 
Your claim was that businessmen prefer competition over monopoly. Now if that is true, that means they would want more competitors, if they lobby to keep competitors out, then that would suggest that you are wrong. To prove you are right, you would have to show that businesses lobby to get more competitors in their industry. Which of course, you cannot do.
False dichotomy!!😛

If that’s the best you can do, hang it up.

“Lobby for competition.”:rotfl:
 
< No, it doesn’t >

How so? The other poster said that capitalism has a tendency toward monopoly and ogliarchy.
You replied instead that people abuse their power and pervert the system. What’s the difference in effect? You’re describing the same thing,but with a different perspective. The system as it works in reality can’t be distinguished from the people that are involved,and some of those people,as you say,abuse their power and pervert the system in order to have a monopoly on an industry or in a region. There’s no clear-cut dividing line that separates capitalism from monopolies. Capitalism is a means to an end,which is to acquire wealth. A monopoly is the consolidation of that end. Businessmen don’t cease to practice capitalism when they have a monopoly.

< If your theory were true, then how do you explain countries that went from capitalism to communism? Or those who went from feudalism to communism? >

Communism is brought about by revolution.
 
How so? The other poster said that capitalism has a tendency toward monopoly and ogliarchy.
You replied instead that people abuse their power and pervert the system. What’s the difference in effect?
What’s the difference in effect between murder and a natural death?😛

His claim is that capitalism is somehow causative – and it is clearly not. He is painting a picture that implies that because the world isn’t perfect, it’s somehow the fault of capitalism.
You’re describing the same thing,but with a different perspective. The system as it works in reality can’t be distinguished from the people that are involved,and some of those people,as you say,abuse their power and pervert the system in order to have a monopoly on an industry or in a region.
Some lawyers steal from their clients. Does that mean all lawyers are bad?

And to do the things he cites, one must do them outside the economic system.
There’s no clear-cut dividing line that separates capitalism from monopolies. Capitalism is a means to an end,which is to acquire wealth. A monopoly is the consolidation of that end. Businessmen don’t cease to practice capitalism when they have a monopoly.
What part of “in a competitive environment” did you fail to understand?😛
Communism is brought about by revolution.
Which is outside the economic system. And laws favoring one company over another are done outside the economic system.

Your own excuse shows the fallacies of his argument.😉
 
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