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deb1
Guest
This woman can pray for her husband from a safe distance. Her presence does not seem to have kept him from being abusive thus far.
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Dan_Grelinger
Guest
My questions were with the intent of the response. Many posters on this thread, Katie1723 being one of them, seems to think that sinful behavior releases the other spouse from their vows. That, I believe is an error. That is the world’s view of marriage, not God’s. That is the difference between a contract and a covenent. God does not abandon His people for reasons such as these, and the covenant that He has with His people is the model for the covenant that we have made with our spouses.I thought that was what we all were saying. This woman should leave this man and if the church can not give her an annulment, she should remain celibate but safely away from him. So, I’m not certain what you are debating here.
We vow until death do us part, and for better or for worse. This woman seems to take her vow very seriously, and is being ridiculed by posters on this thread because of it.
If everyone took their vows half as seriously, there would be no divorce in this world. When one believes that their spouse has to ‘earn’ their continued love, instead of granting it unconditionally, then the marriage has been reduced to a contract. It is not the relationship that God intended.
Sincerely,
Dan
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holly_potter
Guest
If an annulment isn’t possible, the marriage still being valid, I’d still go for separation and living a celibate single life. I’d take celibacy over marriage to a sick murderer like that! It’d be difficult, but it’d still be easier and a better choice. Was the wife present when he did all that to the kid? Couldn’t she have stopped him?
I avoid articles like these too, because then I would worry about my siblings (and in NO way am I implying that my dad is like this!) I had a nightmarish dream afte 9/11 about my siblings…
I avoid articles like these too, because then I would worry about my siblings (and in NO way am I implying that my dad is like this!) I had a nightmarish dream afte 9/11 about my siblings…
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sanctamaria17
Guest
If the marriage is indeed valid and she lives a celibate lifestyle after divorce or at least separation, then she is still honoring her marriage vows. Right now, a child’s safety is more important.
If a man ever abused me or my children (when the time comes for marriage and children), I wouldn’t just leave him, I’d leave him with some broken bones. That is NO WAY to treat a baby!!
If a man ever abused me or my children (when the time comes for marriage and children), I wouldn’t just leave him, I’d leave him with some broken bones. That is NO WAY to treat a baby!!
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holly_potter
Guest
Ditto!If a man ever abused me or my children (when the time comes for marriage and children), I wouldn’t just leave him, I’d leave him with some broken bones. That is NO WAY to treat a baby!!
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Dan_Grelinger
Guest
By living a celibate life if the marriage is assumed valid, it appears that you suggest the woman unilateraly withhold herself from her husband, violating her vow of marriage.If an annulment isn’t possible, the marriage still being valid, I’d still go for separation and living a celibate single life. I’d take celibacy over marriage to a sick murderer like that! It’d be difficult, but it’d still be easier and a better choice. Was the wife present when he did all that to the kid? Couldn’t she have stopped him?
I avoid articles like these too, because then I would worry about my siblings (and in NO way am I implying that my dad is like this!) I had a nightmarish dream afte 9/11 about my siblings…
As I said in my earlier post, this is the world’s view of marriage as a contract, i.e. our love and responsibilities are conditional on the behavior of the spouse. “If you don’t act like you should, then I won’t honor my commitment.”
This is not marriage as God ordained, or as the Church teaches. It IS however, what the world attempts to teach us. It appears to have done a good job.
Am I suggesting that the husband deserves her commitment? No, he does not. What I am saying is that it does not matter. This is the very essence of a covenant. A sacremental covenant is permanent, and is not dependent on each other’s sins. Otherwise the Church would allow divorce.
Sincerely,
Dan
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Dan_Grelinger
Guest
I certainly understand the emotion. But, this is “eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth” philosophy. It is this the Old Testament kind of thinking that Christ came to ‘perfect’.If the marriage is indeed valid and she lives a celibate lifestyle after divorce or at least separation, then she is still honoring her marriage vows. Right now, a child’s safety is more important.
If a man ever abused me or my children (when the time comes for marriage and children), I wouldn’t just leave him, I’d leave him with some broken bones. That is NO WAY to treat a baby!!
Sincerely,
Dan
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whatevergirl
Guest
Something tells me that God would forgive us divorcing someone who put our baby in a microwave…that somehow He would feel protecting that baby would be in far better interest, than a marriage vow. Yes, marriage vows are important…he broke his…that’s the important thing to note here. He broke his. I pray that he gets help…but, we can’t pretend to know what God would say in this instance…about the marriage. God is merciful. He wouldn’t expect us to be in dangerous circumstances…to remain married. God loves us. He doesn’t wish harm on us…
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Ray_Scheel
Guest
Not true. The woman has grave and legitimate reasons to avoid any possibility of having any more children with this man, reasons that the Church had made clearly known long before she took her vow (and reasons that come from Natural Law at that, so they are universally applicable and not just to Catholics). . It is faulty logic to try to pin blame for the consequences of the man’s actions on the woman who has to figure out what to do to protect her child and prevent any future harm from coming to her children when her husband has exposed an intent to cause grievous harm to his family.
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dulcissima
Guest
I am seriously questioning your understanding of marriage. Don’t you remember our pope speaking recently about how our Catholic faith did not require us to abandon reason?
You can not honestly believe that there is much chance that such a man was really competent to make the vow to love, honor, and cherish his wife? Do you think it is very likely that such a mental disorder as this man suffers from is one that only came about after he was married, or do you think it is much more likely that such a serious condition would have come about as a result of his upbringing and family life?
If you had any idea what living with an abuser was like, you would know that staying in such a soul crushing marriage is nothing but a victory for satan. There is a reason that Christ gave us a Church, and that is to protect the truth. This woman has every right to protect herself and her child and to appeal to the Church to help her discover the truth about what she believed to be a marriage.
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Dan_Grelinger
Guest
And what is that something that tells you this? Your feelings?
It is not the teaching of the Church that tells you that divorce is possible, even in situations such as this. God, Christ, and the Church teaches that once married, always married. This has been a consistent teaching for the past 2000 years. This post, and many of your other posts on marriage as well, indicate that you do not believe this, that you accept society’s view that true marriages can be ended by divorce
I don’t have serious heartburn over the fact that you do not believe marriage is forever, but I do cringe when you try to teach others that is the way that it is.
Sincerely,
Dan
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Dan_Grelinger
Guest
What are the grave and legitmate reasons that this woman avoid any possibility of having more children with her husband? What is this ‘natural law’ that you reference? I have explored the Church’s teaching of natural law and its application to marriage, but did not reach the same conclusions that you have.
As I have described in this post, the woman should put her children’s protection as her highest priority. To put her children’s protection as the top priority does not mean not having any more children, does it? You seem to be suggesting that not being born is the better alternative for a child, over being born and placed into a protective situation. I do not understand that.
Sincerely,
Dan
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Dan_Grelinger
Guest
I agree with much of what you say. This is what I question:
You consistently refer to this relationship as a marriage. If you truly believe that is so, (and the woman’s behavior seems to show she would agree with you), then they are married. Until proven otherwise by a marriage tribunal, our assumption is supposed to be on the side of marriage, that a valid marriage exists.
I have never stated my feelings on whether this marriage is valid or not. The evidence we have is not complete. To make any statement of fact that the marriage is invalid is irresponsible. Marriages are assumed to be valid until proven otherwise.
This woman is not seeking a divorce. She makes statements that indicate she believes she is really married. What more do you know than her? What you read in the paper? Are you a better authority than this woman on the validity of her marriage?
Sincerely,
Dan
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Ray_Scheel
Guest
Make up your mind, you couldn’t have explored the Church’s recognition of Natural Law while simultaneously feigning utter ignorance of the same.
If the couple is incapable of properly caring for additional children that couple does indeed have grave reason to avoid the possibility of more children. Unless you have an exception obliging the woman to continue to bear children by utilizing “protective situations” to protect them from their father after
their birth this is also a dead end for you.
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whatevergirl
Guest
You don’t know me, Dan. Don’t presume to judge me.
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whatevergirl
Guest
agreed.
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Chovy
Guest
Dan,
You make an interesting point. If I were this woman, I would seek a separation from the man, and more than likely seek a divorce with the intent to live chastely until death. Outside of the information already provided by some others, I would have two reasons for not having sexual intercourse with my husband if I were this woman.
First, being open to life with the potential to bring a new child into the world with this man as the father could potentially result in the creation of a child who has no access to a father, and I do not believe that intentionally bringing a child into a single parent home is in his or her best interests. To me, that is a grave enough reason to abstain. I say that it would be a single parent home because as we have all agreed for the most part, it would be unwise for this woman to continue to live in the same household as the man, regardless of their marital situation and in reality, I hope he will be serving an appropriate prison sentence.
Secondly, knowing what I know about our health and human services departments, the social workers in charge of this case would either move to terminate my parental rights of my existing children or move to give this man unsupervised visits with the children if I stayed married to him. I would not be able to risk the lives of my children or my involvement in their lives because this man could not be trusted.
Only the actual people in this situation know all of the facts, but I pray daily that no more children will be harmed by this or any other abuser.
You make an interesting point. If I were this woman, I would seek a separation from the man, and more than likely seek a divorce with the intent to live chastely until death. Outside of the information already provided by some others, I would have two reasons for not having sexual intercourse with my husband if I were this woman.
First, being open to life with the potential to bring a new child into the world with this man as the father could potentially result in the creation of a child who has no access to a father, and I do not believe that intentionally bringing a child into a single parent home is in his or her best interests. To me, that is a grave enough reason to abstain. I say that it would be a single parent home because as we have all agreed for the most part, it would be unwise for this woman to continue to live in the same household as the man, regardless of their marital situation and in reality, I hope he will be serving an appropriate prison sentence.
Secondly, knowing what I know about our health and human services departments, the social workers in charge of this case would either move to terminate my parental rights of my existing children or move to give this man unsupervised visits with the children if I stayed married to him. I would not be able to risk the lives of my children or my involvement in their lives because this man could not be trusted.
Only the actual people in this situation know all of the facts, but I pray daily that no more children will be harmed by this or any other abuser.
T
Tweety
Guest
God wants us to forgive - yes, he does not want us to be suckers!
My friend was in an abusive relationship and she didn’t leave as they were married in the Church. Her priest told her at the time that God preferred her to leave the marriage AND get a divorce rather than stay and be abused and for the children to suffer any more.
Yes, our wedding vows are for life and for better or worse, sickness or health etc… but if my husband touched our son and put him in a microwave or whatever - he would be lucky to see the police station let alone prison. And yes i am a Catholic and i believe in forgiveness - i forgave the man who molested me as a child. But if my husband did this to our child - i doubt i would find an excuse for him and take him back.
What legitimate excuse is there for this behaviour? None! I would not want to be married to a man like that and would get a divorce - regardless of what* anyone *would tell me. There would have to be a pretty good reason - (medication) that set him off or something… not just having a bad day and was cranky… that’s insane and is no excuse.
So many Catholics have stayed in abusive relationships because they were married in the Church… God doesn’t want us to suffer, we have been given free will to discern what is right and wrong and we can all make mistakes… even in marrying the wrong person. These mistakes should be forgiven. I think it is wrong to stay in a marriage where there are lies and deception, violence etc… i was in a relationship like that before i met my darling husband… i was ‘sucked’ in… That is not what a marriage or a relationship should be. That is why the Church now grants annulments.
As a mother, i believe i am here to protect my child/children. God gave me this right. A parent protects his/her child/children. My dh and i have been married for 5 years and have been together for 13 years and have a 3+1/2 yr old adorable son… I cannot see myself ever divorcing my husband and he feels the same, but if he were to hurt our son - especially by putting him into a microwave (insane!) you wouldn’t have to ask me twice. I could forgive, but would not want to have anything to do with him.
What about when clergy molest young children? Should these men be given a second chance around little children, especially boys? I don’t think so! No different here, if you hurt a child, you should be not allowed anywhere near children. Yes, one can repent and i hope they all do, but for some, it is a disease and they enjoy it, like serial killers do. Some sick people in this world get off by hurting others, small animals etc… If this man could hurt his own flesh and blood, what could he do to a stranger? I would pray for him, but not want him in my life. Just as i do for the man who molested me.
My friend was in an abusive relationship and she didn’t leave as they were married in the Church. Her priest told her at the time that God preferred her to leave the marriage AND get a divorce rather than stay and be abused and for the children to suffer any more.
Yes, our wedding vows are for life and for better or worse, sickness or health etc… but if my husband touched our son and put him in a microwave or whatever - he would be lucky to see the police station let alone prison. And yes i am a Catholic and i believe in forgiveness - i forgave the man who molested me as a child. But if my husband did this to our child - i doubt i would find an excuse for him and take him back.
What legitimate excuse is there for this behaviour? None! I would not want to be married to a man like that and would get a divorce - regardless of what* anyone *would tell me. There would have to be a pretty good reason - (medication) that set him off or something… not just having a bad day and was cranky… that’s insane and is no excuse.
So many Catholics have stayed in abusive relationships because they were married in the Church… God doesn’t want us to suffer, we have been given free will to discern what is right and wrong and we can all make mistakes… even in marrying the wrong person. These mistakes should be forgiven. I think it is wrong to stay in a marriage where there are lies and deception, violence etc… i was in a relationship like that before i met my darling husband… i was ‘sucked’ in… That is not what a marriage or a relationship should be. That is why the Church now grants annulments.
As a mother, i believe i am here to protect my child/children. God gave me this right. A parent protects his/her child/children. My dh and i have been married for 5 years and have been together for 13 years and have a 3+1/2 yr old adorable son… I cannot see myself ever divorcing my husband and he feels the same, but if he were to hurt our son - especially by putting him into a microwave (insane!) you wouldn’t have to ask me twice. I could forgive, but would not want to have anything to do with him.
What about when clergy molest young children? Should these men be given a second chance around little children, especially boys? I don’t think so! No different here, if you hurt a child, you should be not allowed anywhere near children. Yes, one can repent and i hope they all do, but for some, it is a disease and they enjoy it, like serial killers do. Some sick people in this world get off by hurting others, small animals etc… If this man could hurt his own flesh and blood, what could he do to a stranger? I would pray for him, but not want him in my life. Just as i do for the man who molested me.
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Dan_Grelinger
Guest
I am only expressing ignorance of the conclusions you have derived from natural law, not natural law itself. I do not feign.
Does grave reason necessarily dictate grave responsiblity? Is this Church teaching? Point me in the direction, and I will go in search of the truth.
Do you know for fact that these potential children cannot be cared for? I do not know that. It would only be assumption on my part to suggest that is so. I have adopted 2 children. Regardless of the situations that brought them to us, they are still gifts from God. I can only assume that there are many options for protecting any children that may yet come from this marriage.
I’m not sure I understand this statement, so I cannot reply to it.
In summary, these are two principles that I am applying:
- Marriage is a covenant. If it exists, it cannot be broken. By saying that it cannot be broken, I mean that we must remain true to the vows we make, until death, no matter what sins our spouses commit.
- Human Life is the ultimate gift. If risk to this life was justification for not participating in its creation, then none of us would exist.
Dan
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whatevergirl
Guest
Great post. Very good advice. I think that annulments would not be around, if the RCC thought we should stay in abusive/violent/frightening marriages–no matter what.
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