Should society be nicer to criminals?

[Theban]

Compared with the United States, the prison population rate in Norway is very low, as it is in most European countries.

That would be directly related to the shorter sentences, no?

I live in Norway, and our justice system is far from perfect. Just a few days ago a pedophile who had raped two small girls was sentenced to just a year of prison, and there are many more cases like his. The lack of retribution has resulted in Norwegians in general becoming less trusting of the judicial system, and vigilante justice is relatively widely practiced.

Also, while it’s true that the reincarceration rate is lower in Norway, this is not the case for all types of criminals. Generally, people sentenced for violence for the first time do benefit from a lenient and compassionate environment like the Norwegian prisons, but more hardened criminals and more economically motivated people are often reincarcerated, and those convicted of drug-related violent crimes have a 75% chance of going back to prison.

 

[Buks]

From my layman’s perspective: Nice at the initial encounter but very firm if there’s resistance. If cuffing is necessary there should be little to no injury after that. Perhaps there should be a standard checking for injury after arrests with auditing at a summary level on a regular schedule, independently.
The police are protecting us. You’d think some people think they are only concerned about themselves. It’s twisted that an altruistic profession is cast in the light that it has of late. The next natural disaster may adjust some perspectives.

 

[phil19034]

the biggest problem in America today is that there is a large segment of the population that believes that police should use extreme force on anyone who resists because their lives matter more than those of the criminals.

I don’t think there is a large segment of the population that believes the police should use EXTREME force.

If a law was passed tomorrow that says the Police are not allowed to use their knee against a prisoner’s neck and/or back, after they are hand & leg cuffed, I don’t think there would be any outcry.

Everyone can agree that what happened to George Floyd (as well as what happened to the white guy who died due to police kneeing is back in Dallas a few years ago) is an outrage & totally immoral.

We MUST treat prisoners as humans & with human dignity. But that doesn’t mean they need hotel accomidations.

But it does mean that prisoners should be protected against being raped, beat up, or killed in prison.

For some reason, police don’t often use ankle cuffs, but I would argue that using ankle cuffs would be a LOT better than using a knee against their back and/or neck.

 

[oliver109]

It’s twisted that an altruistic profession is cast in the light that it has of late.

What makes policing a more altruistic profession than working as a chef, hairdresser or journalist? a truly altruistic profession would be one that is completely voluntary and the person is doing it without expectation of a financial reward or any reward. Most officers i assume join the police because it provides a varied career with good enough financial benefits and it is easy to get into compared to say becoming a doctor or actor that may require years of training and many qualifications.

 

[TheLittleLady]

There should be no financial incentive for a society to lock people up. It should be prohibitively expensive, in order to force that society to deal with the underlying causes of crime, rather than just trying to lock it away and pretend the problem doesn’t exist.

Instead prisons are now run by for-profit corporations.

 

[Buks]

What makes policing a more altruistic profession than working as a chef, hairdresser or journalist?

Good question which I think our society would be better off if it were widely discussed. There would be a lot of good answers, many I think coming from children, unencumbered by political correctness.

 

[Dan_Defender]

I’d be interested to know what crimes the criminals in Norway have committed. I’m pretty sure if they were rapists or murders most people would not be okay with this type of prison.

One of the prisoners was a murderer, he was very candid to the reporter about having almost gotten away with it, since he buried the body and all, but eventually the body was discovered and they caught him. Didn’t seem remorseful at all.

 

[VonDerTann]

Some thoughts:

We MUST treat prisoners as humans & with human dignity. But that doesn’t mean they need hotel accomidations.

But it does mean that prisoners should be protected against being raped, beat up, or killed in prison.

–I would argue that prisoners (i.e. those already convicted) in the US are already treated with enormous dignity: As I said before, they get gyms; law libraries; and TV; medical care; nutritious meals; access to lawyers; and the new “model for prisons” is lots of common areas and less time locked in cells.

–As to protections against rape, beatings, etc., there is absolutely no foolproof system against any of these. Guards can’t be everywhere, and many assaults are of the “sucker punch” variety for which there’s often no defense. Assaults are ALWAYS going to happen when 1) large numbers of people are locked up together; 2) those people are criminals to begin with; and 3) many of those inmates are used to using violence to address their problems.

Prison cultures have essentially almost always been examples of kakistocracy (admit it, all you lurkers: I taught you a new word, didn’t I?), namely, “government by the worst elements of society,” where the worst inmates often control others. I’m sorry, inmate-on-inmate violence will always occur.

 

[StudentMI]

–As to protections against rape, beatings, etc., there is absolutely no foolproof system against any of these. Guards can’t be everywhere, and many assaults are of the “sucker punch” variety for which there’s often no defense. Assaults are ALWAYS going to happen when 1) large numbers of people are locked up together; 2) those people are criminals to begin with; and 3) many of those inmates are used to using violence to address their problems.

That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try harder. Dostoevsky was correct when he said you can take a measure of a society by how well they treat their prisoners. If our prisoners must fear rape and violence then we are a pretty poor society.

I own a book of drawings from a former gulag prisoner. He addresses homosexual rape as a tool that was used to control weaker prisoners. If we can’t even beat the gulags on this we are cooked.

 

[VonDerTann]

We beat the gulags hands down. For starters, most of the gulags were filled with the truly innocent.

OK, we should try harder. But these assaults will always happen, and I’m not convinced we’re not doing a good job as it is.

 

[InThePew]

The starting point, from a Catholic perspective, is inherent human dignity stemming from our creation imago dei - something which is not lost when someone commits a crime regardless of how heinous. Having worked in the criminal justice sector, I’m well aware that there are some people who are thoroughly dislikeable individuals who definitely need to be incarcerated for the protection of society. That does not mean however, they they should be treated as some sort of lesser species; things like healthcare, nutritious meals, access the legal advice and education aren’t examples of “enormous dignity” rather they’re entitlements owed to a person as part of basic dignity. Most people who talk about prisons as being “luxurious” have probably never visited one (personally, I’ve been in and out of prison more times that I can remember ). The most significant aspect of imprisonment is the deprivation of a person’s liberty down to almost the most basic level - far more than just not being allowed to go places, but an actual loss of autonomy with regard to personal decision making.

The reality is that most prisoners will be released at some point before they’re old, grey and toothless and, treating someone like some sort of sub-human, or locking them in a cell for 23 hours a day is hardly conducive to either rehabilitation or protection of society in the future (especially when pre-existing mental health issues are considered).

 

[VonDerTann]

I would agree that programs to assist reintegration could be better.

Other than that, I’m not sure exactly what you think we should be doing, that we’re not doing, that would respect the rights of inmates. Any ideas?

 

[phil19034]

I would argue that prisoners (i.e. those already convicted) in the US are already treated with enormous dignity

I didn’t argue the contrary. However, most priests & deacons who perform prison ministry will tell you that there is plenty of room for improvement. But that doesn’t mean our prisons are devoid of dignity.

As to protections against rape, beatings, etc., there is absolutely no foolproof system against any of these.

I think there are still some things that can be done to improve things, at least for the ones who want to be protected.

In my view, showers should be protected times. Criminals shouldn’t be allowed to enter the cells of other criminals, etc. There are some things that can be done.

Also, we need to do a better job of keeping know crime bosses from being able to recruit people when in prison.

I don’t have all the answers, but there is room for improvement.

God Bless

 

[InThePew]

Where to begin… greater facilitation of family contact (especially in person); screening assessment and treatment of mental/physical health, literacy/numeracy, addiction issues; better bridging programs to help inmates once released; larger cells, elimination of double bunking, felon voting, the list goes on.

I’m well aware that there are some really nasty individuals who need to be treated differently in order to protect others from them and who probably won’t be interested in engaging with any sort of treatment / rehabilitation program but these are very much a minority.

Sadly, compassionate conservatism is in short supply - too often, when it comes to law and order issues, the “lock em up for longer” voices are the loudest.

 

[mary77]

I think the important point is to be careful with the criminal personality and their skill at manipulation. I give credit to people who become police officers that they choose to work with a very difficult group of individuals and have to endure the fight or flight instinct everytime they have to come up against a suspect. Why does someone become a criminal ? Thats a different topic and that is where being nice comes in…

 

[VonDerTann]

Some of what you’re advocating for I’d be OK with. However, things like larger cells; private rooms; and family contact stop making prison prison and make it a hotel - and a pretty cushy one at that -paid for by tax dollars.

The same way you decry the lack of compassionate conservatism, others might decry the opposite as “throw tax dollars at the problem.”

 

[pnewton]

Ven Fulton Sheen didn’t recommend taking very kindly to criminals.

In his time (on TV and radio) the incarceration of criminals was a fraction of what it is today.

America has more people in prison than any country in the world except for China. (Technically, America has more people in “prison” but if you count China’s concentration camps, then China comes out ahead, though America might be winning on a per capita basis.)

North Korea is pretty close as well. The point is, that we are the leaders among the most repressive regimes currently on the planet.

The same way you decry the lack of compassionate conservatism, others might decry the opposite as “throw tax dollars at the problem.”

We should all be paying a lot more in taxes, if we as a society want to maintain our exorbitant incarceration rate. Or we could join the rest of the civilized world and change the way we look at drug crimes, treating it as a social problem rather than a crime.

Minneapolis will be defunding their police in favor of a different approach to public safety. They may provide some examples, right and wrong, of what works and what doesn’t. The problem will be with those that want police on tap for their non-police issues, like problematic neighbors, noise complaints, family squabbles, and most regrettably, the discomfort of having mentally ill people live in society.

 

[PatienceAndHumility]

Disregarding the question of how countries implement their own prison policies (for the record, from the sound of it it looks like Norway’s is far too lenient and not a deterrent), I think we should remember Christ’s words. And also that His mercy is infinite:

“Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me.”

I think criminals do get forgotten to a degree, and ostracised once out of the system. Simply by virtue of having been in prison. We are lucky indeed that prison chaplains do much work to reach to these often deeply wounded souls , as do other ministries. I think it’s important to remember that the heart of a convicted criminal is only something God can see. Indeed, many learned Theologians and the like, may for example call for greater wrath from God. We cannot see all ends.

 

[BartholomewB]

I’m sorry, inmate-on-inmate violence will always occur.

How common is it in Norwegian jails?

 

[VonDerTann]

Tell us, please!

My limited research indicates that if, in Norway, you just don’t lock most criminals up, I suppose there are fewer opportunities, but just letting everyone go free would I suppose prevent such assaults. It would also lead to a lot of revenge assaults outside prison, which I gather Norway also sees a lot of…)