Should the Church reconsider its position on hell?

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Nun_ofthe_Above:
Hell is a very real and extremely frightening place to be, and those who refuse to repent of their sins, will find themselves there; Purgatory (not called as such, in so many words) is a place one goes to if they are not fully righteous, yet not completely unrepentent. Over time (under the guidance of Michael, it appears), those souls in purgatory work at improving themselves, and when the day of judgement arrives, they will be allowed into heaven.
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But is there any scriptural evidence for purgatory? Does Christ mention purgatory anywhere? Isn’t the doctrine of purgatory rather something that was cooked up precisely because the notion of hell that we find in the scriptures seems inconsistent with an infinitely loving and merciful God?

Who first posited purgatory?
 
If it does, it should also “reconsider” its position on purgatory and heaven as well.

Do not serve “God,” the “Force,” “Jesus,” the Holy Spirit," “Jehovah,” “Allah,” “Brahman,” the “Great Spirit,” the “Higher Power,” or whatever you may call “Him” to gain some sort of hope of everlasting biological life. After this life is over, it’s over. There are no literal mansions, no literal streets paved with gold, no cherubs with wings playing harps, no Saint Peter waiting for us at some literal portal or checkpoint. That is all the stuff of mythology that has crept into the popular consciousness. Christ does not hold out the hope for any of us of some sort of everlasting biological life.

We are called to a much higher “life” that does not depend upon material realities for it’s sustenence. That life has begun here and now. Metaphysical realities have material counterparts in the here and now which signify them. For “hell” we have fire, a garbage dump, a burial ground, a bottomless pit, a place of pitch darkness. For “heaven” we have the Church, the Eucharist, the family, our place of employment (though some may see in these last two realities a certain sense of “hell”), etc.

No, Virginia, the red Underwood devil with horns and a pitchfork is not what “Satan” looks like. Since “Satan” is spirit, he cannot be seen and described with the naked eye.

Time to grow up people. Time to grow the “hell” up.
 
Hi romano, 🙂

First off, I must explain…I am not an apologist, nor am I Catholic…yet. I do however, like to read, and to me, Purgatory makes perfect sense. There are times, when reading, I find that the place or state being referenced, does not fit perfectly with the notion of heaven or hell; therefore, in all probability, it is purgatory.
God loves us, and even when we are called to account for our actions etc, after we pass from this world, He gives us a chance to repent of our sins…if we do, we get purgatory, however, if we refuse to repent, we get hell; and of course, the righteous go to heaven.

Ok…you wished for some references. I know non-Catholics often like to refute these scripture references, but it’s the best I can do for the moment. I can’t make anyone believe in Purgatory, any more than someone can make me stop believing, even if we are using the same references to argue our side of the story.
scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html

In Christian Charity,
Peace be with you, and your loved ones.🙂
 
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romano:
Hi Steven:

Thanks for the link and the collection of quotes. I have read the NT. So, however, has St Isaac the Syrian and he has a rather different take on things to yours, as does Julian of Norwich.

I wonder if you know Alexander Kalomiros’ ‘The River of Fire’:

philthompson.net/pages/library/riveroffire.html
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Also, don’t forget Origen, who believed in universal reconciliation. I know some contest this and say he was proposing it for debate purposes, but I believe it is clear he believed it and taught it.

Peace…
 
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foofydo:
God is the one that would reconsider anything…Us humans…who gave any one of us the authority?
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Jesus gave authority to His Church. The whole keys to the kingdom and power to bind and loose. It’s in the Bible.
 
Origenians of the world, unite!

But, seriously, is it a sin to merely hope for the universal reconciliation of all?
 
If the Church were to get rid of hell, they would be going directly against Jesus’ teachings and would also have to eliminate the idea of free will. It cannot be done.
 
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romano:
Hi Steven:

Thanks for the link and the collection of quotes. I have read the NT. So, however, has St Isaac the Syrian and he has a rather different take on things to yours, as does Julian of Norwich.

I wonder if you know Alexander Kalomiros’ ‘The River of Fire’:

philthompson.net/pages/library/riveroffire.html
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Hello romano,

I read some of the link you provided. I did not get the feeling that Alexander Kalomiros considers obedience to God as love for God and disobedience to God as hate for God. Do you?

Please visit www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com

One cannot love God without the option to choose not to love God. Free from the will of God obedience to the will of God is love for God. Jesus many times tells us to produce the fruit of the Kingdom, which is love for God. This is our purpose in life according to God’s great commandment to love the Lord our God with all our hearts. Jesus and the Father warn us that those who are not fruitfull in producing the fruit of the Kingdom, which is love for God, will be thrown into the fire.

Please visit Parables Painting Pictures of Paradise

**NIV 1JO 5:3****This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome.**NIV JOH 14:15

"If you love me, you will obey what I command."

NIV JOH 14:23

Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.”

NAB JOH 15:22

“If I had not come to them and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; now, however, their sin cannot be excused. To hate me is to hate my Father. Had I not performed such works among them as no one has ever done before, they would not be guilty of sin; but as it is, they have seen, and they go on hating me and my Father.” NAB DEU 5:9

“. . . you shall not have other gods besides me. You shall not bow down before them or worship them. For I, the LORD, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishments for their fathers’ wickedness on the children of those who hate me, down to the third and fourth generation but bestowing mercy, down to the thousandth generation, on the children of those who love me and keep my commandments.”

NAB MAT 13:47 Parable of the Net

"The reign of God is also like a dragnet thrown into the lake, which collected all sorts of things. When it was full they hauled it ashore and sat down to put what was worthwhile into containers. What was useless they threw away. That is how it will be at the end of the world. Angels will go out and separate the wicked from the just and hurl the wicked into the fiery furnace, where they will wail and grind their teeth. "**NAB MAT 21:43

**“Therefore, I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people that will produce its fruit.”
Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com
 
Should the Church reconsider its position on hell? Only if Jesus Comes back and retracts His previous statements on it!!!
 
According to Mark 9:42-47, Jesus said: “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe [in me] to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were put around his neck and he were thrown into the sea. If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed than with two hands to go to Gehenna (i.e., hell), into the unquenchable fire. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life crippled than with two feet to be thrown into Gehenna (i.e., hell). And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. Better for you to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into Gehenna (i.e., hell), where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.” (New American Bible)
See also: Matthew 5:22, 5:29, 10:28, 18:9
Luke 12:5
Apparently, Jesus believed in hell.
 
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Ahimsa:
Origenians of the world, unite!

But, seriously, is it a sin to merely hope for the universal reconciliation of all?
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As I said in an earlier post, there are respected Catholic theologians who do entertain such a hope. JPII was quoted as giving some countenance to this view himself (not in a formal doctrinal statement), but it may have been a faulty translation. “Hopeful universalism” does seem to be within the pale of orthodoxy. But I’m sure lots of people here will disagree with that.

Edwin
 
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Zooey:
With all due respect, I have to point out a couple of points here.
I was using an example, not making a pronouncement on anyone’e fate.Is there any real likelihood that these 2 people are sharing the same eternal fate???
One person spent her entire life in devoted service to our Lord. She prayed, she worked, above all, she believed & trusted in the God who created the universe. She lived & died in His friendship. That is what a saint is,IMHO.
The other practiced black magic, worshipped demonic spirits under the guise of “ancient gods”; he murdered millions of people by proxy, & at least a few directly.He died demanding the deaths of all his closest allies (most of whom killed them selves to please him, adding to his victims); he ended by committing suicide, not in sorrow or depression, but in rage at his loss of power & position. At no time in his life did he show repentance for anything.Quite the contrary.
Now, that said, is it possible that he is not in hell? Of course. Anything is possible. It is even possible that Hitler was saved, & Teresa lost. But as the Brits say, "Pigs may fly, but they make unlikely birds."
My point is that God is a God of mercy, but He is also a God of justice. That is why Jesus died on the cross to save us.
God bless.
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Nothing could be less important than whether we know of someone’s heart - it is enough that God knows. As for the question of justice: God is not just; and thank God for that. He is a God of grace, and grace is not measured by justice. 🙂​

 
carol marie:
The Church should reconsider it’s position on hell only if God has changed His mind and done away with it.
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Well, since God is Truth and perfect and therefore cannot
“change his mind”, it looks like Hell is here to stay.

If he could “change his mind”, then that means his
former or current ideas were in error – and that’s not possible.

Jeff
 
Gottle of Geer said:
## Nothing could be less important than whether we know of someone’s heart - it is enough that God knows. As for the question of justice: God is not just; and thank God for that. He is a God of grace, and grace is not measured by justice. 🙂 ##
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It is perfectly true that we do not know other people’s hearts. It is true that God knows. We know what we see, however.Example: I watched the **fruits **of Mother Teresa’s life. She poured out love to everyone for decades. I do not claim to know her heart, but it is reasonable to assume that these actions flowed from her oft expressed love for our Lord. If I accept that, (and I do!), I can reasonably presume to know that she is in Heaven with Him.
I saw the fruits of a group of fanatics on 9/11/2001. Again, I do not know their hearts. I do know that if they did not repent, they died with murder on their souls. I believe that it is reasonable to at least doubt that they are in Heaven now, because their deeds showed their hearts.
Can I be totally wrong about this? Gosh, yes. I am only:p human. I make mistakes all the time. However, to use Catholic terminolgy on this point, if one person dies in a state of mortal sin, while the second has not even any venial sin in her heart, it is not unreasonable to presume that the former’s present state is less happy than the latter’s.
Therefore, until, as another post has all ready suggested, until Jesus comes back & retracts His previous statements on [hell], I must believe in it.
It is absolutely true that God **is **a God of grace. That is why Jesus went to the cross. But you see, unless God is not also a God of justice, that sacrifice would not have been necessary . If God,( being in charge of all things, )could have somehow forgiven sins in another way-- without the brutal torture & death of our Lord-- then He would have.Since He did not do so, & since Jesus did teach of a real hell, I am forced to believe in it also.
Anything else would make mortal sins a joke, & the Lord Jesus a liar or deluded…neither of which I can believe.
God bless.
 
De Maria:
Ecc 12:7 And the dust return into its earth, from whence it was, and the spirit return to God, who gave it.

Does this verse not mean that all of us have a spirit given by God and that this spirit will return to God who gave it when we die?

What does “return to God” mean to a soul that dies in a state of mortal sin?
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Hello De Maria,

My thoughts on Christ’s Parable of the Silver Pieces (MAT 25:14) is that God grants us what is His, the Holy Spirit, temporarily while we are on earth. We are to use our Penticostal Holy Spirit to produce fruit for the Father while on earth. Upon the Masters return, those who did well with God’s possessions and made them fruitful are rewarded and given some of God’s possessions for their own. Those who bury God’s possessions in a hole and do not produce for the Lord are stripped of everything God has entrusted them with.

Jesus associates the parable of the silver pieces with his parable of the ten virgins (MAT 25:1). In the parable of the ten virgins those who did not provide to keep their torches (the Holy Spirit) burning where cast into hell.

Scripture says that Jesus will pour out the Holy Spirit on us. Those who are begotten of God into the Kingdom of God to live for all eternity, I would think, recieve a portion of the Holy Spirit which allows them to do so.

It seems that the gifts of the Holy Spirit people possess on earth, when not properly used to produce fruit for God, are taken away from non producers and the non producers are cast into hell (Throw this worthless sevant into the darkness outside, where he can wail and grind his teeth). Their portion of the Holy Spirit is given to the producing heaven goers until they are rich. Again these are only my thoughts on Jesus’ parable of the silver peices.

NAB MAT 25:24

“Finally the man who had recieved the thousand stepped forward. ‘My Lord,’ he said, ‘I knew you were a hard man. You reap where you did not sow and gather where you did not scatter, so out of fear I went off and buried your thousand silver pieces in the ground. Here is your money back.’ His master exclaimed: You worthless, lazy lout! You know I reap where I did not sow and gather where I did not scatter. All the more reason to deposit my money with the bankers, so that on my return I could have had it back with interest. You there! Take the thousand away from him and give it to the man with the ten thousand. Those who have, will get more until they grow rich, while those who have not, will lose even the little they have. Throw this worthless sevant into the darkness outside, where he can wail and grind his teeth.”

NAB ACT 2:33

"Exalted at God’s right hand, he first received the promised Holy Spirit from the Father, then poured this Spirit out on us. This is what you now see and hear. David did not go up to heaven, yet David says,

‘The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool. Therefore let the whole house of Israel know beyond any doubt that **God has made both Lord and Messiah this Jesus **whom you crucified.’"

**NAB JOH 3:3 **

Jesus gave him this answer: “I solemnly assure you, no one can see the reign of God unless he is begotten from above.” “How can a man be born again once he is old?” retorted Nicodemus. “Can he return to his mother’s womb and be born over again?” Jesus replied: “I solemnly assure you, no one can enter into God’s kingdom without being begotten of water and Spirit.”
De Maria:
Does the same fire burn in Hell, Purgatory and in Heaven? The Seraphim are said to be creatures of fire. God, Himself is a consuming fire. Hell is a consuming fire.
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The fire of the Holy Spirit is not the same fire as the fires of Gehenna.
De Maria:
Hell is said to be eternal? Yet God is the only one that can be eternal. Eternal means no beginning and no end, doesn’t it?
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Jesus tells us those who go to heaven recieve eternal life.

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com
 
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Zooey:
It is perfectly true that we do not know other people’s hearts. It is true that God knows. We know what we see, however.Example: I watched the **fruits **of Mother Teresa’s life. She poured out love to everyone for decades. I do not claim to know her heart, but it is reasonable to assume that these actions flowed from her oft expressed love for our Lord. If I accept that, (and I do!), I can reasonably presume to know that she is in Heaven with Him.
I saw the fruits of a group of fanatics on 9/11/2001. Again, I do not know their hearts. I do know that if they did not repent, they died with murder on their souls. I believe that it is reasonable to at least doubt that they are in Heaven now, because their deeds showed their hearts.
Can I be totally wrong about this? Gosh, yes. I am only:p human. I make mistakes all the time. However, to use Catholic terminolgy on this point, if one person dies in a state of mortal sin, while the second has not even any venial sin in her heart, it is not unreasonable to presume that the former’s present state is less happy than the latter’s.
Therefore, until, as another post has all ready suggested, until Jesus comes back & retracts His previous statements on [hell], I must believe in it.
It is absolutely true that God **is **a God of grace. That is why Jesus went to the cross. But you see, unless God is not also a God of justice, that sacrifice would not have been necessary . If God,( being in charge of all things, )could have somehow forgiven sins in another way-- without the brutal torture & death of our Lord-- then He would have.Since He did not do so, & since Jesus did teach of a real hell, I am forced to believe in it also.
Anything else would make mortal sins a joke, & the Lord Jesus a liar or deluded…neither of which I can believe.
God bless.
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God is Perfect Mercy and Justice. The two are not incompatible, but work together as alluded to in Pope Benedict’s homily where he relates that Love without Truth is blind and Truth without Love is empty (or claning symbols as St. Paul put it). I agree that to erase Hell would have profound effects on the Faith for if there isn’t a Hell or Justice to go along with Mercy, why should I try to live a good life following the Faith??? Why not live the easy live if all will be universally saved??? God could have forgiven sins in another way, but God choose to let His Son die for our Sins. (We should never forget that God is omnipotent and unbridled by what we perceive as limitations.) A great mystery of the Faith is why God choose to redeem mankind through the Death of His Son. Thanks and God Bless.
 
Thank you for your answer. This is indeed my point!! The danger of universalism is indeed that people will fall into sin, since they believe that there is no purpose to living a moral & upright life!!
 
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Ahimsa:
Origenians of the world, unite!

But, seriously, is it a sin to merely hope for the universal reconciliation of all?
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Hi Ahimsa:

I don’t see how it could be a sin. After all, St. Isaac of Syria even prayed for the salvation of the demons, and he was a . . . SAINT!
 
**
what about these?**
**

**John 3:16 God is a God of love (1 John 4:8). All Bible teaching must reflect this characteristic of God. **
****HOW LONG WILL HELL-FIRE BURN?

****Romans 6:23 The wages of sin is death (not everlasting life in hell-fire).

**Psalm 37:9-11 **The wicked will cease to exist.

**Psalm 37:20 **The wicked shall perish and consume into smoke.

**Psalm 68:2 **The wicked shall perish as wax before a fire.

**Psalm 104:35 **Sinners will be consumed and the wicked shall be no more.

**Malachi 4:1-3 **The wicked will be as stubble, the fire shall burn them up and they will be ashes under our feet in the day that God does this.

**Revelation 20:9 **As the wicked try to overtake the holy city, fire comes down from God out of heaven and devours them (vs. 14); this is the second death. The second death is never called a “sleep” as the first death is because there will never be a resurrection from it. It will be an eternal annihilation.

**Ezekiel 28:18, 19 **The devil will also be devoured in the lake of fire. He will be brought to ashes and will never be any more.

**MARK 9:43, 44 - UNQUENCHABLE FIRE. **

In Jeremiah 17:27 God said if the people refused to obey, He would burn Jerusalem with unquenchable fire. It happened in 2 Chronicles 36:19-21! But is Jerusalem still burning? No! “Unquenchable” simply means that when God sets something on fire it’s beyond anyone’s power to quench it while it burns, and it will accomplish the purpose that God has determined for it.

**MATTHEW 25:41-46 - EVERLASTING FIRE AND PUNISHMENT. **

Jude 1:7 says Sodom and Gomorrah burned with eternal fire. They are not burning now though. 2 Peter 2:6 says these cities burned to ashes as an example of what will happen to the wicked at the end of the world. The punishment is everlasting in its **effect **or **consequences **but not in the duration of the time of the burning. (Compare the usage of the word “eternal” in Jude 7 with the same word in Hebrews 5:9 and Hebrews 6:2). It is obvious that the word “eternal” is referring to the result of the act rather than the duration of the act itself.

**
from and more at prophecycode.com/pdf/Bible_Reference_Guide_14.pdf
prophecycode.com/current-meeting.asp?id=14
 
To dispense with hell would be to contravene the Words of our Lord Himself.
 
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