Should the Church return to the old rite?

[Dovekin]

Emeraldlady:

the force of the Vatican II documents towards Pope John Paul II’s spirit.

What do you see as the force of documents towards the Pope’s spirit? This is new theology to me.

John Paul II worked on Gaudium et Spes during the Council, and his efforts there continued during his pontificate. His first encyclical, recalling Vatican II and Paul Vi, expresses the Spirit that enlightened him:

In reality, the name for that deep amazement at man’s worth and dignity is the Gospel, that is to say: the Good News. It is also called Christianity. This amazement determines the Church’s mission in the world and, perhaps even more so, “in the modern world”. This amazement, which is also a conviction and a certitude-at its deepest root it is the certainty of faith, but in a hidden and mysterious way it vivifies every aspect of authentic humanism-is closely connected with Christ. It also fixes Christ’s place-so to speak, his particular right of citizenship-in the history of man and mankind. Unceasingly contemplating the whole of Christ’s mystery, the Church knows with all the certainty of faith that the Redemption that took place through the Cross has definitively restored his dignity to man and given back meaning to his life in the world, a meaning that was lost to a considerable extent because of sin. And for that reason, the Redemption was accomplished in the paschal mystery, leading through the Cross and death to Resurrection.

The Church’s fundamental function in every age and particularly in ours is to direct man’s gaze, to point the awareness and experience of the whole of humanity towards the mystery of God, to help all men to be familiar with the profundity of the Redemption taking place in Christ Jesus. At the same time man’s deepest sphere is involved-we mean the sphere of human hearts, consciences and events.
Redemptor Hominis 10

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Emeraldlady:

The teaching documents of Vatican II have force behind them. They require not just our assent but our embrace in living what they teach. The spirit in which Pope John Paul II embraced those teachings is what we too should be emulating.

All of the teaching documents of the Church have force behind them. Vatican II is not a separation from the rest of the historical Church and what has been handed down by our Church Fathers, saints and ancestors.

We need to be obedient to the Church. We also can not interpret those VII documents in light of anything but the Church and what it has always taught, not on our own and not on our own interpretation of what the Popes have said.

We also need to read them in light of Scripture and the Catholic church alone has the authority to interpret Scripture, so that again takes us back to the Apostles, previous popes, Church Fathers, saints and ancestors.

Thank you so much for saying this.

Aside from my mother, my father, and my son, you just became my favorite person in the whole wide world :smiling_face_with_three_hearts:

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Thank you so much for saying this.

Aside from my mother, my father, and my son, you just became my favorite person in the whole wide world :smiling_face_with_three_hearts:

Thank you. That is very nice.

 

[Emeraldlady]

Lol. It’s amusing to see the gaslighting happening here. As if anyone believes that there isn’t a rejection of the force of Vatican II going on for many people. All the Popes have at points in their reign, had to reinforce that force against that.

 

[sainteriksrose]

My understanding is that since Vatican II it has been both/and, not either/or…

And if this is accurate, then both being available sounds reasonable to me as they’re both legit.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

It’s amusing to see the gaslighting happening here. As if anyone believes that there isn’t a rejection of the force of Vatican II going in for many people.

So, I take it you are talking about the “spirit of Vatican II” when you say force. No not all the popes have pushed the spirit of Vatican II.

All the Popes have at points in their reign, had to reinforce that force against that.

I am thinking you are talking about the post conciliar popes being very attached to the new pastoral innovations set forth in VII, yes I would agree.

It’s amusing to see the gaslighting happening here.

Also, there is no gaslighting happening here, (I saw that movie also and the Burns and Allen version of it). We are to be faithful and obedient to the whole Church.

 

[Emeraldlady]

Emeraldlady:

It’s amusing to see the gaslighting happening here. As if anyone believes that there isn’t a rejection of the force of Vatican II going in for many people.

So, I take it you are talking about the “spirit of Vatican II” when you say force. No the popes have not pushed the spirit of Vatican II.

No. The force of authority. An example of how that was manifest in people who embraced that force was a shift from the counter reformation view of Protestants (and other faiths) which bred an anti Protestant regard in the faithful… to an emphasis on allowing some anwers regarding salvation, to be left in the hands of the merciful Father.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

IIRC, it was the Abbe de Nantes and the late Deidre Manifold who wrote about the Vatican-Moscow agreement in their publications.

True trivia tidbit to impress your friends: One of the conditions in the Vatican-Moscow agreement was the release of + Cardinal Slipyj, the head of the underground Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church. When he found out under what terms he had been released, he wanted to go back to the Gulag.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

No. The force of authority . An example of how that was manifest in people who embraced that force was a shift from the counter reformation view of Protestants (and other faiths) which bred an anti Protestant regard in the faithful… to an emphasis on allowing some anwers regarding salvation, to be left in the hands of the merciful Father.

The force of authority has always been in the Church and that includes all the councils, even VII.

The Church has always taught that there could be a way that someone who is not physically in the Catholic Church may be saved because of the Catholic church and due to the mercy of God and that God would before they die give them some grace for salvation.That did not start at Vatican II. Father Ripperger said in one of his talks that has always been a tradition of the Church.

That said, VII did not change the dogma that there is no salvation outside the Catholic church and we must be about lovingly bringing our protestant and other non Catholic friends and family into the Church with hopes of their salvation. That is in VII also.

 

[Emeraldlady]

Emeraldlady:

No. The force of authority . An example of how that was manifest in people who embraced that force was a shift from the counter reformation view of Protestants (and other faiths) which bred an anti Protestant regard in the faithful… to an emphasis on allowing some anwers regarding salvation, to be left in the hands of the merciful Father.

The force of authority has always been in the Church and that includes all the councils, even VII.

The Church has always taught that there could be a way that someone who is not physically in the Catholic Church may be saved because of the Catholic church and due to the mercy of God and that God would before they die give them some grace for salvation.That did not start at Vatican II. Father Ripperger said in one of his talks that has always been a tradition of the Church.

Yes but do you see what I’m saying about the force of the Council of Trent documents coining Protestants as ‘heretics’ and ‘schismatics’ with ‘shipwrecked souls’, led to a general regard for Protestants through the years. The Vatican Council taught that we are not to regard today’s Protestants with the same condemnation as their forefathers. That was a manifest shift through the faithful although it has taken 50 years to fully embrace that for some.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

IIRC, it was the Abbe de Nantes and the late Deidre Manifold who wrote about the Vatican-Moscow agreement in their publications.

I’ll take your word for it.

I find the Abbé de Nantes to be very difficult to read, because his writing style is so dense and, presumably, translated from the French. I have Deirdre Manifold’s book Fatima and the Great Conspiracy here somewhere, probably boxed up with so many other books for which I didn’t have shelving (small house, son needed space for his stuff too), I recall something about how houses in Ireland were built so shoddily that they didn’t last as long as the mortgages on them. Reminded me of some of the shabby modern construction we see in this country (vinyl, Styrofoam(c), and drywall). Pretty good book as far as I recall.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Yes but do you see what I’m saying about the force of the Council of Trent documents coining Protestants as ‘heretics’ and ‘schismatics’ with ‘shipwrecked souls’, led to a general regard for Protestants through the years.

So, there are protestants that are heretics and there are schismatics and there are many shipwrecked souls in this world and where wording might be difficult, sometimes truth is harsh. The Council of Trent was never abbrogated and the CCC is based on the Catechism that came from the Council of Trent.

The Vatican Council taught that we are not to regard today’s Protestants with the same condemnation as their forefathers.

Where I agree we are not to be condemning of others because we can not judge, we must be truthful and it is better to tell someone the truth than to let them suffer with out Christ for all of eternity. I also stand very strongly on it being wrong to think we are better than our forefathers. That is uncharitable to those who handed down the faith to us and to the Holy Spirit who has always guided the Church.

That was a manifest shift through the faithful although it has taken 50 years to fully embrace that for some.

Unfortunately the faithful are more confused now because they have gone so far to the other extreme that they now no longer believe the Catholic church is the one true Church and it is. Now is the popular belief that Jesus is just one way among many, which is not Catholic teaching.

 

[OraLabora]

I would, however, be up for incorporating more Latin in the liturgy, as well as better using the Church’s treasury of sacred music. And mutual enrichment between the rites would be fine too…

That’s what happens at our local abbey: Latin propers, Latin/Greek ordinary, the rest in French plainchant. It is very beautiful especially as the chant is expertly done. I sing in a schola too that also does the same thing once a month at local OF Masses. Well did, until this miserable pandemic.

 

[Emeraldlady]

You keep diverting the discussion into unrelated themes. The theme here is that the documents of Vatican II have the force of any other Council documents and they are meant to correct errors and reorient the faithful to more fully understand and live the timeless doctrines of the Church.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

You keep diverting the discussion into unrelated themes. The theme here is that the documents of Vatican II have the force of any other Council documents and they are meant to correct errors and reorient the faithful to more fully understand and live the timeless doctrines of the Church.

I am not diverting, I disagree that the Council documents were meant to correct any erronious Church teaching because there isn’t any but I do agree that they were meant to aid in pastorally teaching what the Church has always taught but unfortunately because of some of the wording, some of the liberalism that crept into the council and the documents, we have gone too far in to the extreme belief that the Catholic church is just another denomination among many and that is not true.

Sadly, also there are those who believe that Vatican II started a new Church and there are two extremes there; those that think that is great and let’s forget the past, it no longer applies and those that think it is horrible and lets ignore today, it doesn’t apply. Both are wrong.

When we talk about being obedient to the Church, it must be the whole Church, not just VII or our interpretation of VII.

 

[pnewton]

I had a thought. If the idea that going back to an earlier formulation will help the Church grow, why not go to the formulation of the New Testament, in Greek, when the Church’s growth was greatest? Roll it back 2000 years.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

I had a thought. If the idea that going back to an earlier formulation will help the Church grow

No one is talking about going backward but bringing forward the good that was lost or left behind.

 

[Emeraldlady]

Emeraldlady:

You keep diverting the discussion into unrelated themes. The theme here is that the documents of Vatican II have the force of any other Council documents and they are meant to correct errors and reorient the faithful to more fully understand and live the timeless doctrines of the Church.

I am not diverting, I disagree that the Council documents were meant to correct any erronious Church teaching because there isn’t any

I didn’t say erroneous teaching. I said errors. It was an error to believe that Protestants and (other faiths) are damned by default. This belief was most manifest in the cult of Fr Feeney and even today there are some extremist Catholics that hold to that. No matter how hard theologians tried to explain that, they produce the documents from Trent as evidence of their belief.

but I do agree that they were meant to aid in pastorally teaching what the Church has always taught but unfortunately because of some of the wording, some of the liberalism that crept into the council and the documents, we have gone too far in to the extreme belief that the Catholic church is just another denomination among many and that is not true.

And then there is all the good that came from Vatican 2 that the Popes have had to reiterate again and again so that we can confidently embrace the great steps towards Christian unity that wasn’t even on the radar a couple of centuries ago. No one could doubt that God in His heaven must be very pleased with that.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

It was an error to believe that Protestants and (other faiths) are damned by default.

The Church has always and still teaches that there is no salvation outside the Catholic church. God can save someone if he chooses out of His mercy and because of someone’s invincible ignorance, otherwise yes, outside the Church one’s soul can be lost for all eternity. We humans only have the Church to turn to for salvation.That teaching has not changed. It is just being hidden.

cult of Fr Feeney and even today there are some extremist Catholics that hold to that.

Father Feeney is a whole other topic because there is more to his story than outside the Church, no salvation. Before he died his excommunication was lifted by reciting the Athanasius creed which starts:

Whoever wishes to be saved must, above all, keep the Catholic faith.
For unless a person keeps this faith whole and entire, he will undoubtedly be lost forever.

and later in the creed:

It is also necessary for eternal salvation that he believes steadfastly in the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Thus the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is both God and man.

And then there is all the good that came from Vatican 2 that the Popes have had to reiterate again and again so that we can confidently embrace the great steps towards Christian unity

Christian unity yes is something that is being encouraged today, though many are taking it too far. It needs to be unity under the Catholic church because sadly we are separated because of one main thing, our belief in the Eucharist and other’s non belief. Pope St. John Paul II said the Eucharist is the source and summit of our faith.

I think we are going around and around in circles and I am feeling from it all, so

God bless

 

[Emeraldlady]

Emeraldlady:

It was an error to believe that Protestants and (other faiths) are damned by default.

The Church has always and still teaches that there is no salvation outside the Catholic church. God can save someone if he chooses out of His mercy and because of someone’s invincible ignorance, otherwise yes, outside the Church one’s soul can be lost for all eternity. We humans only have the Church to turn to for salvation.That teaching has not changed. It is just being hidden.

That doesn’t respond to what I stated. The fact is that Catholics had developed a belief that Protestants are damned by default. That developed because of the harsh words of the Council of Trent which were very appropriate to the conditions of the Reformation times.

Generation upon generation passed the spirit of Trent on until the Church needed to reorient us today more fully to the truth which was done in the document Nostra Aetate.

Father Feeney is a whole other topic because there is more to his story than outside the Church, no salvation.

My reference to Fr Feeney was just to demonstrate to you that there were and are still false understandings of EENS derived from Trent.

Christian unity yes is something that is being encouraged today, though many are taking it too far. It needs to be unity under the Catholic church because sadly we are separated because of one main thing, our belief in the Eucharist and other’s non belief. Pope St. John Paul II said the Eucharist is the source and summit of our faith.

And because of the dialogue made possible by embracing an ecumenical spirit, we now have the happy situation of Anglican Ordinariates. Some entire Anglican Parishes coming back to the Pope.