Should the Feast of the Birth of Mary be upgraded to a Solemnity?

[EphelDuath]

I don’t think a solemnity that is not dealing with the Lord, does not get celebrated on a Sunday. So even if this were elevated, it may be moved to another day rather than discarded if it fell on a Sunday, but I don’t think it would be celebrated when Sept 8 is a Sunday.

See above. In Ordinary Time, solemnities can always be celebrated on Sunday. In the seasons (save for Holy Week), solemnities are displaced to the next Monday.

I know of no time in the Church’s history when, e.g., All Saint’s wouldn’t be celebrated on November 1 even if it was a Sunday.

 

[garysibio]

Enough is enough already. We already focus too much on Mary in my opinion. She’s supposed to point us to Jesus. That means we eventually have to take our eyes off of her and turn them to Jesus. When you’re driving you don’t stop and the directional signs, you acknowledge the message and continue on your journey.

 

[EphelDuath]

Enough is enough already. We already focus too much on Mary in my opinion. She’s supposed to point us to Jesus. That means we eventually have to take our eyes off of her and turn them to Jesus. When you’re driving you don’t stop and the directional signs, you acknowledge the message and continue on your journey.

So you’re saying that the Catholic Church diminishes the Lord through Mary?

But the Gospel of Luke has her proclaim: “My soul magnifies the Lord.”

One cannot venerate Mary too much (provided it does not seep over into worship); she is God’s mother, and we are saying we love God every time we say we love Mary. To say otherwise is to contradict the wisdom of many, many saints, not excluding Pope John Paul II, Maximillian Kolbe, Maria Faustina, and Louis de Montfort.

 

[garysibio]

So you’re saying that the Catholic Church diminishes the Lord through Mary?

But the Gospel of Luke has her proclaim: “My soul magnifies the Lord.”

One cannot venerate Mary too much (provided it does not seep over into worship); she is God’s mother, and we are saying we love God every time we say we love Mary. To say otherwise is to contradict the wisdom of many, many saints, not excluding Pope John Paul II, Maximillian Kolbe, Maria Faustina, and Louis de Montfort.

First of all I was not talking about the Catholic Church. I am talking about the attitude of some Catholics. So your basic premise is completely wrong and really amounts to twisting my words. Disagree with me if you want but don’t put words in my mouth.

Yes, the Bible does quote Mary saying that her soul magnifies the Lord. So shouldn’t our souls also magnify the Lord. Where does the Bible quote anyone as saying, “My soul magnifies Mary”?

The Catholic Church teaches us that Mary’s role is to lead us to Jesus, not keep our attention focused on her.

 

[Zekariya]

Enough is enough already. We already focus too much on Mary in my opinion. She’s supposed to point us to Jesus. That means we eventually have to take our eyes off of her and turn them to Jesus. When you’re driving you don’t stop and the directional signs, you acknowledge the message and continue on your journey.

First of all I was not talking about the Catholic Church. I am talking about the attitude of some Catholics. So your basic premise is completely wrong and really amounts to twisting my words. Disagree with me if you want but don’t put words in my mouth.

Yes, the Bible does quote Mary saying that her soul magnifies the Lord. So shouldn’t our souls also magnify the Lord. Where does the Bible quote anyone as saying, “My soul magnifies Mary”?

The Catholic Church teaches us that Mary’s role is to lead us to Jesus, not keep our attention focused on her.

I assume then, that you are talking about their desire for yet another Marian feast to be celebrated.

Here is the main hymn used in the Melkite Catholic Church for the feast of the Nativity of the Mother of God. We sung it on Sunday along with the hymns of the Ressurection of Christ. It certainly brings our attention to Christ just as the other Marian feasts do (I assume that the Western hymns do the same).
Troparion of the Nativity of the Theotokos in the Forth Tone
“Your nativity, O Mother of God, heralded joy to the whole universe. For from you rose the Sun of Justice, Christ our God. He cancelled the curse and poured forth His grace; He vanquished Death and granted us eternal life.”

 

[EphelDuath]

First of all I was not talking about the Catholic Church. I am talking about the attitude of some Catholics. So your basic premise is completely wrong and really amounts to twisting my words. Disagree with me if you want but don’t put words in my mouth.

Yes, the Bible does quote Mary saying that her soul magnifies the Lord. So shouldn’t our souls also magnify the Lord. Where does the Bible quote anyone as saying, “My soul magnifies Mary”?

The Catholic Church teaches us that Mary’s role is to lead us to Jesus, not keep our attention focused on her.

In no Magisterial document, scripture verse, advice of a saint, or anywhere will you find it said that one can be too reverent of the Blessed Virgin Mary. Nowhere is it said that one will not be lead to Jesus if they are ‘too’ focused on Mary.

To the contrary, the Church has not only instituted several Marian solemnities, but also made some of them holy days of obligation. Why is that? Because all of them worship Jesus through His Blessed Mother. The Holy Name of Mary (which is today!), the Assumption, the Queenship of Heaven, the Holy Family, the Nativity of Mary, the Immaculate Conception, the Annunciation, the Virgin Birth; all of these are ultimately honoring God.

Furthermore, the Church has not only approved, but encouraged several religious orders devoted to Mary, who have given us many saints (including, as above, Maximillian Kolbe and Louis de Montfort). And the Church has praised, not condemned, writings that gloriously praise Mary, such as the Total Consecration to Mary (if you think we are too ‘focused’ on Mary, I would strongly suggest reading that book).

So, all-in-all, I think your opinion is an unfounded one. Would you care to prove otherwise?

 

[garysibio]

I assume then, that you are talking about their desire for yet another Marian feast to be celebrated.

Exactly. Why not another feast focusing on Jesus?

Here is the main hymn used in the Melkite Catholic Church for the feast of the Nativity of the Mother of God. We sung it on Sunday along with the hymns of the Ressurection of Christ. It certainly brings our attention to Christ just as the other Marian feasts do (I assume that the Western hymns do the same).
Troparion of the Nativity of the Theotokos in the Forth Tone
“Your nativity, O Mother of God, heralded joy to the whole universe. For from you rose the Sun of Justice, Christ our God. He cancelled the curse and poured forth His grace; He vanquished Death and granted us eternal life.”

What’s your point?

I’m all for letting Mary point people to Jesus but you eventually have to move your focus from the pointer to the pointee.

It was Jesus who died and rose again to save our souls, not Mary.

 

[EphelDuath]

Exactly. Why not another feast focusing on Jesus?

All of the feasts of Jesus are already solemnities of the highest class. What else do you propose?

I’m all for letting Mary point people to Jesus but you eventually have to move your focus from the pointer to the pointee.

It was Jesus who died and rose again to save our souls, not Mary.

It is impossible to not worship the pointee by venerating the pointer. Again, you have given us nothing from saints, the Magisterium, or scripture to show otherwise.

 

[garysibio]

All of the feasts of Jesus are already solemnities of the highest class. What else do you propose?

I’m not proposing any new feast/solemnity.

It is impossible to not worship the pointee by venerating the pointer. Again, you have given us nothing from saints, the Magisterium, or scripture to show otherwise.

What I see in many threads on the CAF is borderline mariolatry. If you need quotes to see how that’s a problem, nothing I can say is going to convince you.

My point is that you spend your time on the things you consider to be the most important. If our focus is on Mary, it is not on Jesus. You have to decide for yourself who is more important to you.

 

[EphelDuath]

If our focus is on Mary, it is not on Jesus.

This is where you are wrong. The Church does not teach this. The Church teaches that by focusing on Mary, Jesus is magnified. Perhaps you should read some of St. Louis de Montfort’s writings? He very well demonstrates that hyper-veneration of Mary is in no way taking away from Jesus, or “Mariolatry”.

 

[Zekariya]

I’m not proposing any new feast/solemnity.

What I see in many threads on the CAF is borderline mariolatry. If you need quotes to see how that’s a problem, nothing I can say is going to convince you.

My point is that you spend your time on the things you consider to be the most important. If our focus is on Mary, it is not on Jesus. You have to decide for yourself who is more important to you.

The Nativity of the Mother of God is a feast day. It was celebrated in the Eastern Rites and the EF of the Roman Rite. To suggest the desire to commemorate this feast in the OF is NOT mariolatry. My post showed you that celebrating her feast is celebrating Christ. What you are proposing goes against the Catholic teaching of offering hyperdulia to Mary and leaning towards Protestant view.

 

[garysibio]

The Nativity of the Mother of God is a feast day. It was celebrated in the Eastern Rites and the EF of the Roman Rite. To suggest the desire to commemorate this feast in the OF is NOT mariolatry. My post showed you that celebrating her feast is celebrating Christ. What you are proposing goes against the Catholic teaching of offering hyperdulia to Mary and leaning towards Protestant view.

Will you please go back and comment on what I actually wrote rather than your twisting of my remarks.

I never said celebrating a feast was mariolatry. I spoke specifically about where individual Catholics spend their time.

 

[Zekariya]

Will you please go back and comment on what I actually wrote rather than your twisting of my remarks.

I never said celebrating a feast was mariolatry. I spoke specifically about where individual Catholics spend their time.

I see that you responded to Mary’s pointing to Christ with the fact that there are people on CAF that are borderline with mariolatry. This feast does point to Christ and does not support mariolatry.

 

[Chatter163]

In the EF Mass today, the Nativity of the BVM is commemorated by adding the collect after the collect for the current sunday is said. [edited]

Nope, there was no commemoration on Sunday, just the 16th Sunday after Pentecost.

The Annunciation has traditionally been considered a feast of Our Lord, with the Virgin and the Archangel Gabriel being participants.

No, actually the feast was for most of the Church’s history considered a feast of Our Lady. Check an older missal and you will see the Annunciation of the BVM listed, rather than Our Lord. In the earliest days it, like the Presentation/Purification, was considered a feast of both Our Lord and Our Lady. But by the early middle ages it was considered first a feast of Our Lady, and thus it stayed until 1970.

 

[EphelDuath]

Mea culpa.

 

[garysibio]

I see that you responded to Mary’s pointing to Christ with the fact that there are people on CAF that are borderline with mariolatry. This feast does point to Christ and does not support mariolatry.

No, no, no. I made the comment about boderline mariolatry about the attitudes I see expressed by many in CAF, not due to any particular feast. In addition, I said borderline. I did not say that anyone had actually crossed into mariolatry, just that they were getting close. My point is that I see more and more about Mary around here and less and less about Jesus. If that makes me a Protestant, I would rather be a Protestant who focuses on Jesus than a Catholic who focuses on Mary most, if not all, of the time.

 

[Zekariya]

No, no, no. I made the comment about boderline mariolatry about the attitudes I see expressed by many in CAF, not due to any particular feast. In addition, I said borderline. I did not say that anyone had actually crossed into mariolatry, just that they were getting close. My point is that I see more and more about Mary around here and less and less about Jesus. If that makes me a Protestant, I would rather be a Protestant who focuses on Jesus than a Catholic who focuses on Mary most, if not all, of the time.

I’m sorry. I thought that you spoke of mariolatry in reference to Church supported liturgical veneration of Mary. Again, I am sorry.

 

[garysibio]

I’m sorry. I thought that you spoke of mariolatry in reference to Church supported liturgical veneration of Mary. Again, I am sorry.

No problem. Apology accepted.

 

[Zekariya]

No problem. Apology accepted.

Thanks!

 

[Jon_Paul]

Enough is enough already. We already focus too much on Mary in my opinion. She’s supposed to point us to Jesus. That means we eventually have to take our eyes off of her and turn them to Jesus. When you’re driving you don’t stop and the directional signs, you acknowledge the message and continue on your journey.

Catholics can never have enough of Mary, nor can their veneration of her ever obscure from Jesus Christ. Blessed Pope John Paul II was once uneasy in his devotion to Our Lady because he feared he was not giving due time to Jesus Christ or reverence to him. He then read Saint Louis Marie de Montfort’s True Devotion to Our Lady. His mind was put at ease and he realised he could never give Mary just as much a place as she should have in every Catholic’s life.

Mary is not a mere road-sign directing to Christ. To speak of her like this is to inherently separate her from God which is impossible because God has so willed to be inseparable from her. You do not understand Mary’s place in the Catholic faith nor do you understand Mary’s relationship with God. A relationship that God Himself initiated and sustains to this day.

The day I take my eyes of off Mary in some perverse notion that I will thus focus more on God is the day that I will lose my life, my sweetness and my hope.

Father Faber in his work “All for Jesus” dedicated a chapter to describing the interests of Jesus in the world. These interests are summed up in four points. Our Lord’s interest’s include 1) the honour and glory of His Father, 2) the fruits of His Passion, 3) the honour and privileges of His Blessed Mother and 4) the love of grace. Our Lady is explicitly addressed in #3 and is integral to the other three interests.

Nor can a Catholic soundly dismiss Our Lady’s role in their own spiritual life. Spiritual authors abound in the Catholic Faith that address Our Lady’s place in our own spiritual lives. From simple parish priests such as the previously mentioned Father Faber, to the great theological genius of the 20th century in Garrigou-Lagrange to the likes of Saint Bernard who called her the entire foundation of his hope.

Catholics do not have enough of Mary in their lives, that is why so many Catholics are stumbling on the road of perfection. Catholics do not have a secure enough devotion to Our Blessed Lady because so many cower in fear of the condescending sneers of persons such as yourself.

The more Mary we have, the better Catholics we shall be.

O blessed Virgin Mary, who can worthily repay thee thy just dues of praise and thanksgiving, thou who by the wondrous assent of thy will didst rescue a fallen world? What songs of praise can our weak human nature recite in thy honor, since it is by thy intervention alone that it has found the way to restoration. Accept, then, such poor thanks as we have here to offer, though they be unequal to thy merits; and receiving our vows, obtain by thy prayers the remission of our offenses. Carry thou our prayers within the sanctuary of the heavenly audience, and bring forth from it the antidote of our reconciliation. May the sins we bring before Almighty God through thee, become pardonable through thee; may what we ask for with sure confidence, through thee be granted. Take our offering, grant us our requests, obtain pardon for what we fear, for thou art the sole hope of sinners. Through thee we hope for the remission of our sins, and in thee, O blessed Lady, is our hope of reward. Holy Mary, succour the miserable, help the fainthearted, comfort the sorrowful, pray for thy people, plead for the clergy, intercede for all women consecrated to God; may all who keep thy holy commemoration feel now thy help and protection. Be thou ever ready to assist us when we pray, and bring back to us the answers to our prayers. Make it thy continual care to pray for the people of God, thou who, blessed by God, didst merit to bear the Redeemer of the world, who liveth and reigneth, world without end. Amen.