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kalt
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Should the LDS baptize by proxy non-mormons?
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CAmeliaD
Guest
As odd as it is, I read that the “baptized” person is supposedly free to accept or reject the “baptism.” It is certainly strange, but meaningless…I don’t see it as harmful.
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rick43235
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Unless you believe that these by-proxy baptisms have any real effect, what does it matter? 
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Sarah25
Guest
I was reading the thread about this yesterday, and I can see both sides of the argument. However, I lean on the side of disrespect, because even though you can see that the person was baptized by proxy and didn’t necessarily accept LDS religion, that person’s name is STILL “connected” with the LDS church. We know the connection is bogus, but it’s still a connection. I wouldn’t want my name mentioned anywhere near any organization, religious or otherwise, whose beliefs I did not promote.
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kalt
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I think it’s disrespectful to those who chose another religion. They are “baptizing” (actually listing) priests and nuns. We all know (even the Mormons admit it) that this “baptism” does nothing. Nonetheless, the names of good Catholics (nuns and priests included) are listed as baptized in the Mormon faith, even if “by proxy”. The mormons say that they can’t know if the baptism was accepted, but they do list it in their records as being performed.Unless you believe that these by-proxy baptisms have any real effect, what does it matter?
The argument is that these nuns and priests are free to accept or reject the “offer”. (Baptism is offered by God, not people, but that’s for another thread.) Are they merely offering baptism, though? Not really, when they say that they are “baptizing by proxy”. The Baptism is performed, though they have no evidence that the person has said yes. So, the so-called baptism is performed without a confirmed, Yes, or in a worst case scenario, despite the person’s having said, No. (And this is all only if you believe in this stuff. Even if you believe, the practice is disrespectful.)
They can’t know the person’s response to this “offer”, and yet that perform the ritual anyway. They are therefor “baptizing” someone who they don’t know has said yes, and they could be baptizing by proxy someone who has said, No. It’s disrespectful. Presumptuous, too.
Again, we all know (even the Mormons–though in their case only because they believe in it but can’t confirm that anyone has actually been baptized) that this practice means nothing.
Back to reality, No one who is already dead is actually baptized in this ritual. That’s not the point. The point is that the person’s name is added to their list of “baptized by proxy Mormons”. Their name is showing up as converts (possibly, presumptuously), when these people, especially the nuns and priests, did *not *choose Mormonism.
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Publisher
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I voted “Yes” because what it being asked is “Should a Mormon practice one of the ordinances of their faith?” As I understand baptism for the dead as practiced by Mormons, it is part of their view of the communion of saints…namely that we are in this whole “thing” together and by performing the proxy baptism they are offering those who have died another chance at “something” they wouldn’t necessarily have if they did not practice proxy baptism.
No Catholic would want to be told they could not seek the intercession of a saint on behalf of a non-Catholic departed loved one. Yet someone could claim “it is disrespectful” to do so since the departed loved one wasn’t Catholic.
Proxy baptism is something the religious do to make sense of their lives…it is for the living…not the dead…IMO…praying for those who have died is for the living…not the dead…it is a ritual practice that seeks to make sense of death and comfort those who are still here…IMO.
No Catholic would want to be told they could not seek the intercession of a saint on behalf of a non-Catholic departed loved one. Yet someone could claim “it is disrespectful” to do so since the departed loved one wasn’t Catholic.
Proxy baptism is something the religious do to make sense of their lives…it is for the living…not the dead…IMO…praying for those who have died is for the living…not the dead…it is a ritual practice that seeks to make sense of death and comfort those who are still here…IMO.
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Jerusha
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I understand your POV, Publisher. However, I voted disrespectful. They SHOULD not, but they will, because they think they have the right to force others into their religion. However, my own personal belief is that by doing so, they anger the spirits of the dead, so they do it at their own risk. 
Let them go ahead and do it. 
Let them go ahead and do it.
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Publisher
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Actually they are not trying to “force others into their religion”…they are offering a chance to those who have died to accept a gift they refused or were not offered in life.I understand your POV, Publisher. However, I voted disrespectful. They SHOULD not, but they will, because they think they have the right to force others into their religion. However, my own personal belief is that by doing so, they anger the spirits of the dead, so they do it at their own risk.
To me, it’s like the threads that wonder if only Catholics go to heaven…the answer from Catholics have been, “Yes, because everyone who goes to heaven becomes Catholic after they die since they now know the ‘truth’.” Mormons aren’t so clear as to why anyone would reject proxy baptism after death…but claim some do…it is still their choice to accept or reject the baptism…no one is using “force” to convert anyone to Mormonism…it is a gift of love they are offering…not by force but by love.
Are the dead “angered” by doing loving acts on their behalf? Surely if the “dead” have the where-with-all to understand what is occuring on this plane of existence…then they would know proxy baptism would be an act of love…not disrespect…seems like the “dead” should “put their big boy pants” on if they are that petty.
I hope I will have outgrown such issues at being angry at people who seek to offer love to me after I have left this world.
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Jerusha
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Again, your point of view holds water for you. However, you do not have deceased family who were victims of abuses by Mormons.
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Publisher
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My wife, my child, my mom, my grandmother, several aunts and uncles will be baptised in proxy in a years time by my nephew who will be joining the Mormon church on Saturday. I wouldn’t consider this an abuse…just misplaced faith…but it is his faith and he should be able to practice it if it offers him some peace and sense of belonging and connection with those who have gone before.
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Jerusha
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LOL. Non-opposition is the best policy in such a case. Follow your faith.
Follow your faith.
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Publisher
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If the dead are aware of such proxy baptisms…my wife and child may smile…she was a Friend and never baptised with water…we didn’t allow anyone to baptise our child before he died…he died in a Catholic hospital. I suspect my nephew will be baptised on my behalf when I die…as I’ve never been baptised in water either.LOL. Non-opposition is the best policy in such a case.
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Jerusha
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Rites do not a Christian make. They only make it easier to be one.
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Publisher
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Or they get in the way…
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Jerusha
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To you, maybe, but not to me.Or they get in the way…
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Kdesiel
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Wow, I am sorry for your loss. Being a Husband and a Father I could only imagine the greif associated with loosing both my wife and my children. Not taking away from loosing your Mother or Grandmother, I’m sorry to hear that as well.
I pray that God continues to give you strength in dealing with such a loss.
If they get approval to do such ordinence work through the proper means i.e. getting family approval to do such work then I see no harm in having the ordinence work done. However if they side step the propper procedure then I think there is an issue. I do believe it is disrespectful to preform such work if the family does not approve, if somone has had such work preformed with out the family’s approval and that is found out, then the names of said people should be taken out of the Mormon Church records.
Like in your case Publisher you’ve given or will give your approval for those names to be presented in the Temple so no harm no foul.
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Publisher
Guest
Thank you for your kind words. My wife and child died while my nephew was still a young child…he barely remembers my wife…our child died soon after birth…he was a “premie” and live almost half an hour…my wife died a year later in an automobile accident. My grandmother died about 5 years later…my mom, his grandmother, died 17 years ago…as a person of conscience I cannot “forbid” him practicing his religious beliefs…I cannot in good conscience forbid him from being baptized for family members he feels a responsibility for…no matter what my beliefs on the matter may be…as you said “no harm no foul” as far as I am concerned…my loved ones who have been Called back to the Presence are not effected by my nephew’s choice of religous expression.
My nephew asked my brother to have me send copies of family records as soon as I could…I must confess…it was a “strange” feeling to begin gathering family records to send to my brother for my nephew to “baptize for the dead” when he becomes “worthy” to do “temple work”.
My nephew’s wife’s family is fundamentalist KJV-only Christians…they are almost beside themselves with their daughter converting to Mormonism…and are very much against her performing any temple rituals on their behalf…even though they tried to talk the couple into allowing them to take their grandchildren to Sunday school…they’re doing their best to get the grand kids “saved” before their parents joing the church…my nephews oldest daughter is 9…but doesn’t want to be baptized yet in the Mormon church…she’s pulled between her two sets of grandparents…my brother and his “significant other” and his wife’s mom and step-dad…my brother is of the opinion religious affiliation should be undertaken as an adult…he had refused to allow my nephew to be baptized in the Mormon church when he was involved in the Mormon youth group as a pre-teen and teenager…when he turned 18 he considered joining…now 10 years or so later decided to “make the plunge”. Her maternal grand parents are trying to get her “saved” and telling her about “hell”…my nephew is having a difficult time with the fundamental religious training the parents of his wife is trying instill in his daughter.
To me, no matter what one’s religious beliefs may be…seeking to forbid another from performing an innocuous ritual on behalf of the dead is just plain wrong…whether I believe in it’s efficacy or not doesn’t matter…HE BELIEVES he is doing something of worth…it is a matter of conscience on my part…it’s time for ME to put my religious beliefs into play and “mind the Light” on this matter…I must allow his religious freedom in the matter.
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livi
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No, they should not baptize non-Mormons. I know they believe the baptism can be accepted or refused, but if the person’s name is still listed in LDS records then it connects them with a church they did not connect themselves with during their lives. I am Catholic, and I will continue being Catholic. I don’t want my name listed in Mormon records after I die because I have no desire to be Mormon or be affiliated with the Mormon church. Its not the faith that I choose or that I believe is right. And that is my choice, NOT the choice of the LDS church.
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CAmeliaD
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I would assume that most people disagree with you on this. When we pray for someone who is deceased, we are praying for the repose of their soul! If they are in a purification state in purgatory, we are praying that God would allow them into the fullness of His Presence! Praying for the souls in purgatory is really important, and it is nothing close to only beneficial to those who are praying. When I pray for my family and friends, I am certainly not doing it for my benefit. If I ask for their intercession, then sure…but that doesn’t sound like what you are saying. I actually find it a little offensive for you to say that everyone who prays for the dead is only doing so for their benefit.
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Publisher
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Take no offense where no offense was offered, please. I do not hold your belief system…to seek to hold me to expressing myself using a belief system I do not hold stiffles communication…IF you believe praying for the dead helps them, wonderful, if it offers you a sense of “assisting” them in some way, great…that I do not express your beliefs nor embrace them, but seek to understand them as best I can.
I meant no offense…so you needn’t take any…but that’s just my opinion.
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