Should the LDS baptize by proxy non-Mormons?

  • Thread starter Thread starter kalt
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Frankly, it causes me to wonder; just how many of these “proxy baptisms” are counted in the LDS census as part of their “faithful”. We can clearly see the mistakes made on their genealogy site…i.e. same person listed two or more times, false marriages etc. Any argument by LDS as to their census numbers of “faithful” …will always be in question until at least that part geneolgy records ] is cleared of errors.

If any are included, would this not be a lie?

The dead, it is true, may or may not find it offensive…the living do. We honor and respect the lives our dead have chosen.

Including valid marriages. Or choice of celibacy.

The Catholic Bishops have agreed…The Jewish Community has agreed. Both are on record stating such.

We are asked to honor these LDS actions.

But I find it disturbing that LDS can not honor their aggrement with the Jewish community.

By some of the LDS posters, I have seen no or little regard for the living…IS this what I can expect for the memories of our dead…who made their choices?

As always, just my thoughts
 
:nope: There is nothing we can do, except pray that God gives them what they deserve for such practices. NOTHING. It is useless debate. There are other LDS practices that we can oppose effectively. Only God can deal with that one.
 
I voted that it’s disrespectful.

I do not find any validity to any Mormon practice. However, I find it very disrespectful to know that even Pope John Paul was symbolically associated with Mormonism. Jewish victims of the Holocaust suffered enough…symbolically or not baptizing them is disgusting. It turns my stomach to even think ANYONE had the right to do this for/to them. They deserve NOTHING but the best we can provide them now that their suffering is over.

This is a violation, IMHO even though I don’t believe in its validity.
 
Yes, but that Catholic baptism remains an ‘indelible mark,’ right? So that if the baptized Catholic wants to come back, he doesn’t need to be rebaptized?
Click to expand...
Yes, there is indeed an indelible mark, as it is at this point that the person (infant or adult depending on circumstance) is adopted into the family of God through Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. It also offers some protection from the very real effects of original sin, and once again depending on circumstance it cleanses all sins up to that point… How is this similar to LDS baptism or proxy-baptism? LDS don’t have the same intentions when they baptise. As for the indelible mark on the soul, the parents don’t place it there, the priest doesn’t place it there, God does.
 
I had nightmares about this last night 😦 This is certainly not a harmless ritual…it hurts those who are still living. The idea that a relative might take it upon themselves to baptize my late mother by proxy saddens me to no end.
 
heathernoel said:
I had nightmares about this last night 😦 This is certainly not a harmless ritual…it hurts those who are still living. The idea that a relative might take it upon themselves to baptize my late mother by proxy saddens me to no end.
Click to expand...
This is going to be my last post on the matter.

Dear Heather;

The following is a true story. My cousin (call her Grace) is six years older than me, and she is dealing with her mother-in-law,(call her Freda) who is in the early stages of Alzheimers. The patient is lucid most of the time, and manages her life pretty well, but she does need to be looked in on, and is soon going to be moving into an advanced supported living facility. Now my cousin, who has been dealing with this issue for many years, has done the research on three or four possible facilities for her MIL. One of them is a strictly religious-based facility, run by a local Catholic convent. Another is a ‘for -profit’ facility, more expensive, but with lots of very nice perks, physical therapy, cognitive therapy, all the bells and whistles. The third is a ‘not-for-profit’ facility that is run by the county, and is, in fact, a sort of 'store 'm and ignore 'em" nursing home in the classic manner.

Freda is well able to afford any of them, even the ‘for profit’ one that will cost her nearly $15,000 a month. Grace has compiled all the pros and cons for each one, and is about to let Grace choose where she wants to go…

When Bob, Grace’s son, pops out of the woodwork, takes over the whole thing, declares that Grace has deeply offended him by DARING to offer HIS mother a choice in her own decisions, declares that because Freda was born a Presbyterian she would NEVER like the Catholic home (though many of her friends lived there.) He has also decided that since she has always lived a simple life, frugal and careful of where her money goes, that she would not like the ‘for profit’ place. He declares that she would, because of her life choices, want to live in the county nursing home…and that was that. She went to the county nursing home, out of sight, out of mind, where Bob never came to see her. Bob never once asked Freda what she would liked to have done.

All that mattered to Bob was what Bob thought.

Now who was in the wrong here? Grace, who would have accepted Freda’s choice (even if doing so would have been personally uncomfortable for her), or Bob, who decided that HE was the important person?

Ultimately, Heather, whatever your ancestors choose to do is about them. Not about you, or about me. If what we did actually DID have an affect upon them that they could neither avoid nor escape, like Catholic prayers or infant baptism, you might have a right to be offended. Since what we do only affects them if they WANT to be affected, and does not affect you in the slightest, you don’t.

Or rather, you have a right to be offended, I suppose. This falls into the realm of free speech, I would imagine; for instance, I have a right to be offended because my neighbor mowed her lawn slantwise, when everybody else mows it vertically; her mowermarks don’t match everybody else’s. However, the offense my eye make take to those off set mower lines does NOT give me the right to make her mow straight.

…or mow at all, for that matter.
 
I truly sorrow for Grace and Freda.

However, I don’t think that analogy works well here.
It seems, to me, that Bob may have a gain motive behind his actions,…i.e.Freda’s money.

That, I sorrow for.
I also sorrow that Freda didn’t point out her wishes before hand.

The people we are talking about HAVE pointed out their intents…spent their whole lives doing such.
 
kimmielittle said:
I truly sorrow for Grace and Freda.

However, I don’t think that analogy works well here.
It seems, to me, that Bob may have a gain motive behind his actions,…i.e.Freda’s money.

That, I sorrow for.
I also sorrow that Freda didn’t point out her wishes before hand.

The people we are talking about HAVE pointed out their intents…spent their whole lives doing such.
Click to expand...
kimmielittle:

Well said, and with such kindness, my Christian friend.

Anna
 
So what your post is about is that Mormons are babtizing people without their knowledge.

They will find a person unbeknownst to that person and in Utah they will hold a proxy babtism for that person…

They do that for the dead also.

They mean well, they do. My Brother is a Mormon he and his Family, I am Roman Catholic,

No Mormons dont’ care, we are all apostate to Christ if you ask a Mormon.

But There is no salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church. We have Scholarship backing us up, and Mormons have Henry Rifles in .45-70… They don’t care.

They don’t care, we are damned without them. (tongue in cheek) 🙂

No Mormons are funny, they are all about the creation of their Church, Gunfight and all, I know a Roman Catholic guy who was born a Mormon, and converted over before he got married, and i never could tell if that guy got mad like a Catholic, or Mad like a Mormon…

No I Love my Brother, I do… And So…

No they have one good idea I have found, actually several, Mormons only do business with Mormons, and Mormons stockpile goods , 2 years worth as a matter of fact.
There is no walmart problem in Mormon Society. Well their may be, but by those
following the Mormon Church in the conduct of their business’s their is no Walmart problem.

It works if you live in a Mormon Neighborhood that neighborhood may have poverty in places, but they will not have starvation. They take care of their Own neighborhood for Neighborhood. So… No If Rome put forth a stockpile decree you could virtually wipe out hunger where it existed. It is not a bad idea to stockpile canned goods and dry good etc, because you can ease misery where you find it, doing that.

So … No I don’t believe a darn thing about the Planet Kobob or whatever that planets name is nor Joseph Smith either… But they have some of the nicest children that I have ever met, they are always dressed nicely , they do not sass their elders for the most part…

Hmm, They have on average better Children I think then any other denomination outside the Catholic Church save the Amish… I have seen some decency in Mormon Children that I have not seen in other places so… A gal I was in the Army with, she was Mormon, young, and she came across like a Catholic girl in some respects, she was terribly naive and terrible out of her element in Modern Secular Society with persons of the same age group. And it was terrible having to watch her struggle with people trying to corrupt her at Parties, trying to get her to give oral sex. It was terrible. She was completely innocent, completely naive… So I have never really found cause to be , Theologically it is meritless to myself, but the results however they are getting them are still evident.

But I have prayed for her and will continue to do so…

Benjamin

Interestingly enough how the Mormon Church presents itself, You cannot call them Crazy, because they are ridiculous, so they are never called crazy… Planet Kolbob , Joseph Smith standing next to Christ at the Judgement, its absurd, but you will never hear one word about being a Crazy religious from anyone toward a Mormon, which is interesting.

People go ape about the Catholic Church only,

There is something very clever about that Church. The way it presents itself and the results it gets because of it. No it has to do with psychology and nothing with validity.

No I think it is incidental, Like Hay did you notice that when we do this, then everyone does this?? Kinda like they stumbled onto the fact that acting a certain way causes everyone to leave them alone.
 
If an individuals right… not mowing the lawn ] infringes on the rights of others. The rights of others will be upheld. Near where I live, if you trash your yard…don’t mow etc…The Cities do it and charge you. Also issuing you a violation to appear ticket.

You may have to just ignore the slant mowing, it’s true.
But if it becomes offensive to the land owner groups and they show cause…a Judge / Court will hear it.

Individual freedoms do carry much weight. BUT not when they override others rights. I have a right to listen to my music loud…but not at the communities expense.

Your religious freedoms…can not override mine as a Catholic, Protestant, Jew, etc. When LDS chooses to ignore these basic tenets of what the responsibility of religious freedom is…

It says “freedom ** of ** religion”. AND that is what any good lawyer would present to a court.
 
It seems to me that people are struggling with the notion that proxy work for the dead (and btw Mormons do NOT do proxy baptisms for people who are believed to be living) constitutes “doing something” to them. Work for the dead is not counted in the membership statistics (who knows if they accepted the work, after all). My own mother, who was Mormon for a time, and who certainly knew better, would make me promise not to ever have her sealed to her ex husband. The divorce was hostile - the only way for it to have been more hostile would be if guns had come into play. But I know that it is very likely that some day an extractor will come upon the vital statistics record of the divorce, and have her processed for a sealing. I also know that any such sealing will only take effect if two conditions are met: a) that the Mormon cosmology is true, and b) if both parties desire it. The notion that postumous work is the Mormon church calling ‘dibs’ on ones dead relatives is frequently encountered, but wrong, wrong, wrong. Should I also be offended that the Catholic church never recognized my marriage to a Catholic? The legitimacy of my children does not depend on recognition by the Catholic church.
 
kimmielittle said:
If an individuals right… not mowing the lawn ] infringes on the rights of others. The rights of others will be upheld. Near where I live, if you trash your yard…don’t mow etc…The Cities do it and charge you. Also issuing you a violation to appear ticket.

You may have to just ignore the slant mowing, it’s true.
But if it becomes offensive to the land owner groups and they show cause…a Judge / Court will hear it.

Individual freedoms do carry much weight. BUT not when they override others rights. I have a right to listen to my music loud…but not at the communities expense.

Your religious freedoms…can not override mine as a Catholic, Protestant, Jew, etc. When LDS chooses to ignore these basic tenets of what the responsibility of religious freedom is…

It says “freedom ** of ** religion”. AND that is what any good lawyer would present to a court.
Click to expand...
Well, I personally would say that our proxy work for the dead does not in any way infringe upon YOUR freedom of religion. Not the way that the practice of enslaving entire nations in order to convert them to Catholicism did, anyway.
 
dianaiad said:
Well, I personally would say that our proxy work for the dead does not in any way infringe upon YOUR freedom of religion. Not the way that the practice of enslaving entire nations in order to convert them to Catholicism did, anyway.
Click to expand...
Oh oh…be nice 🙂
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top