Should the Pope apologize for using the quote? (Part 1)

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Mankind

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Well, it is a bit early to comment on this since one does not have to be a prophet to predict that Muslim anger will spread, as it did over the Mohammed cartoons earlier this year. The “big” question is whether the protests will become violent? In other words, will the Muslims - who claim to be offended by having their religion linked to violence - use violence to protest that they were labeled as violent? Or will they respond peacefully so as to disprove the claim?

My immediate response is to say to both parties:
Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother’s eye. (Luke 6:42)

I have already talked about the changes that need to happen in Islam when I made my remarks on the Cartoon conflict, so let me be brief here.

If you truly look at the example and teachings given by the Prophet Mohammed, you will not take offense over anything. Thus, you will not attack others and say, “You should not have said something that triggers anger in me.” Instead, you will use your own religion to overcome all anger in yourself, as Mohammed demonstrated by forgiving his enemies. Those Muslims who do take offense over something like this are demonstrating that they have a “deep ignorance of Islam and Islamic history.”

A remark such as, “The pope’s statements come to add fuel to fire and trigger anger within the Muslim world and show that the West with its politicians and clerics are hostile to Islam” is so deeply hypocritical that it almost defies description. As I just said, the very fact that the fire is there in the first place shows an unwillingness to apply the teachings and follow the example of Mohammed. If more Muslims were willing to do so, nothing could “trigger anger” within the Muslim world. Jihad would have been a thing of the past that no modern Muslim would consider worth a second thought.

Using the remarks of the Pope to generalize and say that “the West with its politicians and clerics are hostile to Islam” is not only hypocrisy but shows a clear agenda. This demonstrates that anger against the West does not come from the Muslim people themselves. It is an anger that is created by a few groups within Islamic countries, groups that have a vested interest in creating anger against the West and setting up a “clash of civilizations.”
There are several of such groups and their motives are both complex and contradictory. Nevertheless, my point is that the people in both Muslim countries and in the West need to see through such hidden agendas - in both areas - and avoid forming a negative opinion of each other.

Let me now focus on the Pope. It is clear that the Pope actually intended to further dialogue on the matter of violence and religion. The remark quoted above was taken out of context and used to characterize the entire speech-as the press loves to do in order to create a sensation. Nevertheless, the big question is why the Pope chose to include that remark in his lecture?

If you are trying to promote interfaith dialogue with Islam over the topic of violence, why would you quote from an emperor who lived at a time when - after centuries of crusades - hostility between Christians and Muslims was at a high point? Could this emperor possibly have an objective view of Islam? So why quote him in a speech that is supposedly meant to build bridges and promote dialogue?

Using the statement that Mohammed has brought nothing but things that are “evil and inhuman” is not likely to foster dialogue. Furthermore, it is a statement that is patently false. God is in no way blind to the violence created by Islam, but he also see that this religion has brought much good and has brought many people closer to Him. Thus, for the Pope to use this statement is simply unintelligent.

God also clearly sees the violence comitted by Christians, much of which was created by the very church the Pope represents. In fact, it is undeniable that Christians have caused more violence and killing than Muslims. Even the Catholic Church itself has caused more violence than the entire religion of Islam. Could the Pope possibly have “forgotten” this? Or does he think the Crusades were justified on the part of Christians?
 
Using the statement that Mohammed has brought nothing but things that are “evil and inhuman” is not likely to foster dialogue.
But the statement is true. And ecumenical dialogue should not forsake truth in order bring people closer to Catholicism.

Don’t get me wrong. I’m more of a supporter for ecumenical dialogue than most people here. You can check out this thread here where I actually attempt to defend Islam against the mischaracterizations of its detractors. But even I admit there are aspects of Islam which can lead to serious evil in the world and theologically in serious error.
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Mankind:
Furthermore, it is a statement that is patently false.
Actually, the statement is patently true to the extent that Islam disagrees with Catholicism.

Furthermore, what Islam did manage to hold onto, such as the writings and maths of the Greek philosophers for example, were not their own thoughts.

So, in effect, much of the good that they did bring into the world either pre-existed in Catholicism or Greek philosophers.

There is very little within Islam that is original unto itself.
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Mankind:
God is in no way blind to the violence created by Islam, but he also see that this religion has brought much good and has brought many people closer to Him.
But the Pope did not claim that religion has not brought much good. He has also has not claimed that the religion has not brought many people closer to God either.

He has only claimed that there appears to be nothing original within Islam. And to the extent that he quoted the previous emporer from long ago, the Pope seems to be emphasizing that Islam seems to have brought a tremendous old dimension within monotheism (the holy war) to a brand new potential (global scale).
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Mankind:
Thus, for the Pope to use this statement is simply unintelligent.
Actually, I think he is one of the most intelligent people, theologically speaking, walking the face of the earth today. I had doubts about him before when he was Ratzinger, even to the point of being somewhat scared of him. I took some time to get over this. But now as Pope Benedict XVI, I will stand by his statements. I trust his words because the Holy Spirit is powerfully at work within this man.
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Mankind:
God also clearly sees the violence comitted by Christians, much of which was created by the very church the Pope represents. In fact, it is undeniable that Christians have caused more violence and killing than Muslims. Even the Catholic Church itself has caused more violence than the entire religion of Islam. Could the Pope possibly have “forgotten” this? Or does he think the Crusades were justified on the part of Christians?
I think at this point you are either really not grasping history or else straight our lying. The claim that Christians have caused more violence and killing than Muslims is flat-out stupid-- and I’m now officially calling you on it. 🙂
 
I believe the Pope was apologising for offending peacful Muslims not for the statement which rings true as Muslims have attacked Catholic Churches in response. There is nothing God like about that.

God bless,
Jon
 
I believe the Pope was apologising for offending peacful Muslims not for the statement which rings true as Muslims have attacked Catholic Churches in response. There is nothing God like about that.

God bless,
Jon
I agree.

As far as I can tell, his holiness seems to be condemning the use of any religious motivation for violence, whatever the religion. At least, that seems to be the central thrust of his speech.

It is true that he has expressed regret in regards to the hurt that resulted when these radicals Islamic terrorists actually proved his words true. But he has not retracted what he said. Nor has he said that he was sorry he uttered what he said.

And, quite frankly, he doesn’t have to apologize-- because all he said was the truth.
 
Well, it is a bit early to comment on this since one does not have to be a prophet to predict that Muslim anger will spread
:rotfl:
Heh, you should visit the Catholic News sub-forum just to see how much commenting we have done!
If you are trying to promote interfaith dialogue with Islam over the topic of violence, why would you quote from an emperor who lived at a time when - after centuries of crusades - hostility between Christians and Muslims was at a high point?
Using the statement that Mohammed has brought nothing but things that are “evil and inhuman” is not likely to foster dialogue. Furthermore, it is a statement that is patently false. God is in no way blind to the violence created by Islam, but he also see that this religion has brought much good and has brought many people closer to Him. Thus, for the Pope to use this statement is simply unintelligent.
And the Pope’s condemnation of violence in his speech would also apply to the violent words “evil and inhuman”. So a studied reading of the Pope’s speech will make it clear he wasn’t supporting the Emperor’s quote in full.

So why didn’t the Pope explicitly reject the phrase “evil and inhuman”? It would have been easy to do and would have save the world from much drama (and perhaps some lives, too.
 
Here is what the Pope quoted from Manuel II:
Without descending to details, such as the difference in treatment accorded to those who have the “Book” and the “infidels”, he addresses his interlocutor with a startling brusqueness on the central question about the relationship between religion and violence in general, saying:* “Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached”.** The emperor, after having expressed himself so forcefully, goes on to explain in detail the reasons why spreading the faith through violence is something unreasonable. Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul.*

The Emperor is saying that Mohammed’s command to spread by the sword the faith he preached is evil and inhuman. The Pope’s talk did have to do with violence in the name of religion, but his talk also had to do with the subject of reason and faith, with the history of Jewish thought being influenced from the time of the Babylonian exile by contact with Greek philosophy, and the subsequent understanding that grew out of that in Christian theology.

Read his speech. It’s easy to find on the internet by googling “Pope Benedict speech in Germany.” The speech is not an especially easy read, but neither is it so above the average person to be able to understand it with a little effort. I think if a person reads it, it should be plain that in no way, shape or form did the Pope say that Islam is evil and inhuman. After all, the news reports made it very clear that he said twice “I quote” when he quoted this paragraph.

If there is to be true ecumenical talk between Catholics and muslims, then there has to be greater effort to make sure that speeches like this (especially those made in academic settings) are not taken out of context, whether the speeches are made by Catholics or muslims.
 
The “Media” will always criticize Christianity for things like this, however if gives Islamic Extremists the benefit of the doubt. Why? I have no idea, but the extremist liberal media will always do this.

No, he should not apologize.
 
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