Should the re-distrubution of wealth and power be worldwide?

[TEPO]

People mostly would think of Distributionism from within a national sphere, but with the collapse of the economy, recovery may need the forming of an international monetary system, with one true World Bank. I believe this part of the Papal vision for world justice.

Look at the Euro, the test dummy for the global monetary system… It’s a disaster.

I think instead of conjoining, nations need to be doing the opposite… With multiple monetary systems established in the US, there could be banks where multiple privatized monetary systems can be interchanged with the government backed dollar. Who’s to say that a nation can’t have both socialist and capitalist and co-op systems working separately under one roof…?

Seems like more choices are better than less, and the idea of a single global system is down right scary. Just imagine, if there were many systems, one could fail and the others could pick up the slack, without causing mass chaos.

 

[Robert_Sock]

I guess you do not remember President Johnson’s War on Poverty. It It was a grand expensive failure, just like all socialist programs to eliminate poverty.

Sounds like God was not willing at that particular time, but I would not link this to failed socialism.

 

[Brendan]

I would feel obligated and would donate as much as able (if I knew for sure it was working). This would really separate those who LOVE God and those that don’t.

Does everybody get to choose then?

Or should contributions be forced on those who do not?

 

[TEPO]

This is not the plan of the Catholic Church. It is** Satan’s plan. **

Yes indeed, thank you.

Just imagine if the UN were put in charge of it too… Who can ever posess that much power. Who would ever want to…? The UN is already worming its way toward becoming the global dictator of “values”. Not that they haven’t done some good things, they’re still the pioneers of relativism, on a global scale.

 

[tarboy]

People mostly would think of Distributionism from within a national sphere, but with the collapse of the economy, recovery may need the forming of an international monetary system, with one true World Bank. I believe this part of the Papal vision for world justice.

We are so interconnect that it already happens that way.

• who do you think is bailing out Greece? (other richer, more stable countries)
• the past power and wealth of the US has been moving to developing countries (driven by lower wages)

A capitalist economy by it’s nature leads to redistribution of weath. While it is rarely smooth or pretty, I’m confident a ‘World Bank’ would be much more inefficient with increased graft and corruption.

The market is a better equalizer than beurocracy.

 

[TEPO]

Let me re-phrase the question. How many people would be willing for the US to sacrifice some of its power and wealthy to promote the end to hunger and homelessness? I. for one, would.

No I wouldn’t, honestly. I’m more concerned with souls and i would argue that Jesus is too. Whenever Jesus healed or helped anyone he always told them to go away, and to sin no more. I believe they did just that, because Jesus bestowed Grace upon them.

I can’t think of any time that Jesus helped anyone without also bestowing the special Grace upon them. The better of the two was the latter.

 

[TEPO]

We are so interconnect that it already happens that way.

• who do you think is bailing out Greece? (other richer, more stable countries)
• the past power and wealth of the US has been moving to developing countries (driven by lower wages)

A capitalist economy by it’s nature leads to redistribution of weath. While it is rarely smooth or pretty, I’m confident a ‘World Bank’ would be much more inefficient with increased graft and corruption.

The market is a better equalizer than beurocracy.

You think the Euro might be the test dummy for a global monetary system…? Or at least an attempt to create one?

 

[nightranger]

People mostly would think of Distributionism from within a national sphere, but with the collapse of the economy, recovery may need the forming of an international monetary system, with one true World Bank. I believe this part of the Papal vision for world justice.

That’s called communism. I doubt it’s part of any “papal vision.” And if it was, I would certainly oppose it, papal vision or not.

 

[tarboy]

I would feel obligated and would donate as much as able (if I knew for sure it was working). This would really separate those who LOVE God and those that don’t.

Robert,

I fear you know little about developmental aid and what really impacts peoples’ lives.
First, just giving money doesn’t help a ‘developing country’ any more than it helps an able bodied person on welfare (both need productive work and education rather than handouts). I believe Haiti has received more aid per capita than any other country, for several decades. However, they have remained in dire straits (even before the earthquake) Sending money, food, clothing & shelter immediately after a disaster is essential aid but it doesn’t fix systemic problems.

Second, you can’t judge the situation just on annual income. Maybe $500/yr. sounds horrible but in a farm community where you grow much of what you eat, they can be healthy. What they usually need is help with healthcare and education. Also, nothing is inherently wrong with mud brick housing. Heck, I had outdoor plumbing when I was growing up. It only starts to look horrible when you compare it to a developed country like the US where we get to choose betwen oak, bamboo or maybe brazilian cherry for our floors. Oh, and we spend $300k+ for a house (3-5yrs of salary). The cost to build a mud brick house is probably less than 1 yr of wages in their country since they do the work themselves.

 

[Justice_Mercy]

No I wouldn’t, honestly. I’m more concerned with souls and i would argue that Jesus is too. Whenever Jesus healed or helped anyone he always told them to go away, and to sin no more. I believe they did just that, because Jesus bestowed Grace upon them.

I can’t think of any time that Jesus helped anyone without also bestowing the special Grace upon them. The better of the two was the latter.

Certainly the salvation of a soul is of the uttermost importance in the grand scheme of things. All of our life should be a prayer to God and all of our work should be for his glory.

However, God is concerned with justice and charity, etc. within whatever societal situation we live in. To not attend to the needs of the poor, the oppressed, etc. is not a balanced view. You are throwing the baby out with the bathwater. If we do not attend to the needs of people, we are not truly living out the gospel:

Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. **Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.**”

(Note: fruit is both what takes place as inward spiritual growth and in demonstrable good & practical works)

And the crowds asked him, “**What then shall we do**?” And he answered them, “Whoever has two tunics is to share with him who has none, and whoever has food is to do likewise.” Tax collectors also came to be baptized and said to him, “Teacher, what shall we do?” And he said to them, “Collect no more than you are authorized to do.” Soldiers also asked him, “And we, what shall we do?” And he said to them, “Do not extort money from anyone by threats or by false accusation, and be content with your wages.”

• Luke 3:9-14 ESV

(That seems to be attending to justice and needs to me!*)

“With what shall I come before the LORD,
	and bow myself before God on high?
Shall I come before him with burnt offerings,
	with calves a year old?
Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams,
	with ten thousands of rivers of oil?
Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression,
	the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?”
**He has told you, O man, what is good;
	and what does the LORD require of you
but to do justice, and to love kindness,
	and to walk humbly with your God**?

• Micah 6:6-8 ESV
  
  And the word of the LORD came to Zechariah, saying, “Thus says the LORD of hosts, Render true judgments, show kindness and mercy to one another, do not oppress the widow, the fatherless, the sojourner, or the poor, and let none of you devise evil against another in your heart.” But they refused to pay attention and turned a stubborn shoulder and stopped their ears that they might not hear.
• Zechariah 7:8-11 ESV
  
  Whoever oppresses a poor man insults his Maker,
  but he who is generous to the needy honors him.

-Proverbs 14:31 ESV
*
Wealth can be a hindrance to salvation:*

And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him and asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone. You know the commandments: ‘Do not murder, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.’” And he said to him, “Teacher, all these I have kept from my youth.” And Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “**You lack one thing: go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me**.” Disheartened by the saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

-Mark 10:17-22 ESV

(Jesus linked a man’s salvation to his giving up of possessions - many today are materialistic and find excuses not to use their resources for God.)

A heart that turns from greed to the Lord is a generous heart. Turning to Christ brought a change in Nicodemus:

And Zacchaeus stood and said to the Lord, “Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor. And if I have defrauded anyone of anything, I restore it fourfold.” And Jesus said to him, “**Today salvation has come to this house,** since he also is a son of Abraham. For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

• Luke 19:8-10 ESV

I could go on with many more examples, but in the end it shows that how we treat the poor DOES have something to do with the fruit of salvation.

 

[nightranger]

God is concerned with justice and charity, etc. within whatever societal situation we live in. To not attend to the needs of the poor, the oppressed, etc. is not a balanced view. You are throwing the baby out with the bathwater. If we do not attend to the needs of people, we are not truly living out the gospel:

So are you saying that if someone does not attend to these needs,as you see them, then you (or a government) are going to take their money and *force* them to attend to these needs?

 

[Justice_Mercy]

So are you saying that if someone does not attend to these needs,as you see them, then you (or a government) are going to take their money and force them to attend to these needs?

Where did I ever say that?
That is an assumption on your part. Where did I ever mention the government? Where did I say that people should be forced to do anything?

I wrote this in another thread tonight that OP was asking about Church & Community vs Government charity:

*Monetarily, the funding for charitable works comes just as much if not more so from private citizens than the funds supplied by the government.
*
… The impetus for charitable giving is diminished when one thinks that the taxes they pay are enough to help those in need. It just isn’t true for many reasons. Citizen efforts are a more direct in local as well as worldwide assistance to those in need. The role of the government could be reduced or eliminated by thoughtful giving. The work of helping others makes a great ministry, no matter who we are. It would glorify the name of Christ if such efforts were undertaken by the average citizen to the best of their capability. Since there is no just economy, it is up to individuals to do the work of justice…

Please do not put words into my mouth.

 

[nightranger]

Where did I ever say that?
That is an assumption on your part. Where did I ever mention the government?

I was asking you. I didn’t know what you meant, so I asked. I wasn’t assuming anything.

 

[Justice_Mercy]

So are you saying that if someone does not attend to these needs,as you see them, then you (or a government) are going to take their money and force them to attend to these needs?

That seemed like an assumption to me… if I misunderstood, I think you can see why

Peace

 

[sedonaman]

… (if I knew for sure it was working).

Well now, that’s the trick, isn’t it?

This would really separate those who LOVE God and those that don’t.

Who are you to judge?

---

“Previous generations of social experimenters have caused unimaginable misery for millions of people. None of them have ever been held accountable.

 

[TEPO]

Certainly the salvation of a soul is of the uttermost importance in the grand scheme of things. All of our life should be a prayer to God and all of our work should be for his glory.

However, God is concerned with justice and charity, etc. within whatever societal situation we live in. To not attend to the needs of the poor, the oppressed, etc. is not a balanced view. You are throwing the baby out with the bathwater. If we do not attend to the needs of people, we are not truly living out the gospel:

Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. **Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.**”

(Note: fruit is both what takes place as inward spiritual growth and in demonstrable good & practical works)

And the crowds asked him, “**What then shall we do**?” And he answered them, “Whoever has two tunics is to share with him who has none, and whoever has food is to do likewise.” Tax collectors also came to be baptized and said to him, “Teacher, what shall we do?” And he said to them, “Collect no more than you are authorized to do.” Soldiers also asked him, “And we, what shall we do?” And he said to them, “Do not extort money from anyone by threats or by false accusation, and be content with your wages.”

• Luke 3:9-14 ESV

(That seems to be attending to justice and needs to me!*)

“With what shall I come before the LORD,
	and bow myself before God on high?
Shall I come before him with burnt offerings,
	with calves a year old?
Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams,
	with ten thousands of rivers of oil?
Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression,
	the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?”
**He has told you, O man, what is good;
	and what does the LORD require of you
but to do justice, and to love kindness,
	and to walk humbly with your God**?

• Micah 6:6-8 ESV
  
  And the word of the LORD came to Zechariah, saying, “Thus says the LORD of hosts, Render true judgments, show kindness and mercy to one another, do not oppress the widow, the fatherless, the sojourner, or the poor, and let none of you devise evil against another in your heart.” But they refused to pay attention and turned a stubborn shoulder and stopped their ears that they might not hear.
• Zechariah 7:8-11 ESV
  
  Whoever oppresses a poor man insults his Maker,
  but he who is generous to the needy honors him.

-Proverbs 14:31 ESV
*
Wealth can be a hindrance to salvation:*

And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him and asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone. You know the commandments: ‘Do not murder, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.’” And he said to him, “Teacher, all these I have kept from my youth.” And Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “**You lack one thing: go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me**.” Disheartened by the saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

-Mark 10:17-22 ESV

(Jesus linked a man’s salvation to his giving up of possessions - many today are materialistic and find excuses not to use their resources for God.)

A heart that turns from greed to the Lord is a generous heart. Turning to Christ brought a change in Nicodemus:

And Zacchaeus stood and said to the Lord, “Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor. And if I have defrauded anyone of anything, I restore it fourfold.” And Jesus said to him, “**Today salvation has come to this house,** since he also is a son of Abraham. For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

• Luke 19:8-10 ESV

I could go on with many more examples, but in the end it shows that how we treat the poor DOES have something to do with the fruit of salvation.

Great post…! Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven… I just try to avoid mixing politics with religion because I don’t think secular governments have the capacity to accomplish what needs to be done on an everlasting scale.

I think I’ll just give to the poor on a personal level.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I recall reading that if 100% of the wealth of the U.S. was redistributed worldwide, it would amount to about $1,000 per person. A nice gift, but not life-changing.

And that, of course, would mean selling all the factories, farms, homes, etc in the U.S. to somebody or other, assuming there would be buyers.

But even if it could be done, the golden goose would then be out of eggs and would, itself, be a poverty-stricken country; certainly unable to do things like bring disaster relief as it did in Indonesia or carry out an AIDS relief program as it did in Africa.

So what, then, would the redistributionists do to prevent that scenario? Half the wealth? One quarter? And what would be the consequences to the worldwide economy?

 

[ACCT]

Sounds like God was not willing at that particular time, but I would not link this to failed socialism.

If President Johnson’s Great Society programs were not socialism, I do not know what is socialism.

The Best Laid Plans

Why do so many government programs fail? We’ve seen it time and time again. A need is identified, a program is formulated and put into place, everything starts out well enough, and then, perhaps over time, something happens. The program doesn’t achieve its goals. Or the amount of resources needed for it to achieve its goals are vastly more than expected.

We’ve seen this in Social Security, Medicare, the Great Society programs, and the public school system. Is it waste, fraud, and abuse (those favorite whipping-boys of legislators)? Welfare cheats? Incompetence? Just needs a little fine tuning? We’re not spending enough (no matter how much we seem to be spending)?
I have long been impressed by the operation of Gammon’s law in the U.S. schooling system: (name removed by moderator)ut, however measured, has been going up for decades, and output, whether measured by number of students, number of schools, or even more clearly, quality, has been going down.
Why does this happen? Does it have to happen? The short answer is yes, it does. Unfortunately for those who contemplate grand solutions to the genuine problems in the world. In a modern society the implementation of the kinds of plans we’re talking about here requires a bureaucracy. And Gammon’s Law is an intrinsic feature of bureaucracies.

There’s a name for this: Gammon’s Law:

Dr. Max Gammon was a British physician who sought to solve a public policy riddle: In the 1960s, the government spent significantly more on health care than it had previously, but the National Health Service didn’t seem any better for it. After an extensive study of the British system of socialized medicine, Dr. Gammon formulated his law: “In a bureaucratic system, increase in expenditure will be matched by fall in production.”

Dr. Gammon reasoned: "Such systems will act rather like ‘black holes,’ in the economic universe, simultaneously sucking in resources, and shrinking in terms of ‘emitted production.’ "

 

[sedonaman]

I recall reading that if 100% of the wealth of the U.S. was redistributed worldwide, it would amount to about $1,000 per person. …

One of the super wealthy of the early 20th century added: "And in ten years, the formerly wealthy would be wealthy again, and the formerly poor would be poor again.

---

Leftists think that utopia can be coerced into existence – so no dishonesty or brutality is beyond them in pursuit of that “noble” goal. – Dr. Jon Jay Ray

 

[Justice_Mercy]

Great post…! Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven… I just try to avoid mixing politics with religion because I don’t think secular governments have the capacity to accomplish what needs to be done on an everlasting scale.

I think I’ll just give to the poor on a personal level.

Personally, I feel that doing charity and justice work is best individually or with a group you know/trust.

I, too, avoid any political means to do such things. I used to be very active in politics, but found that things got hijacked or promises were empty. These days I see that it really starts on the ground where we are… not off in “the government” somewhere

Also, there is a difference in focusing only on a “Social Gospel” versus a Gospel that also has social implications… too many try to create an earthly kingdom w/o Christ.