Should there be actions taken to improve or even control immodest dress at mass?

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Thanks, Bob! 🙂

Orogeny, I keep repeating that it is not or who would ‘ban’ someone from Church.

Did you see my restaurant analogy earlier? If a restaurant wants men to wear ties, and supplies them. . .a man refuses and then claims the restaurant ‘banned him’ --is that the case?
 
I think that there should definitely be standards for proper dress, but what you wear should never bar you from church. There have been many times that I have been out running errands or in a foreign city, and have stumbled upon a local mass. Clad in flip flops and shorts, I wish that I had more appropriate clothes to wear, but if I go home to change I will miss mass. Or what if someone who is very secular has been feeling the tug from the Lord to go to Mass, should we turn them away because they aren’t wearing the dress code? What if someone is homeless, or only has one outfit and that one is inappropriate?

I do agree with a previous poster’s suggestion that a great solution would be to have some clean shawls, shirts, pants and skirts at the front door (which I have heard is done in some churches in Italy) so lack of appropriate clothes is never a bar to entry.
 
Actually, what I said was that I couldn’t remember anytime in the Gosples that Jesus required someone to dress a certain way to receive him.I agree with that. I just don’t agree that we should keep anyone out of Mass if we don’t like what they are wearing.I would be willing to bet that in quite a few areas they would be. If we are using society as a standard, a lot of things that you and I feel are inappropriate would be acceptable. But St. Paul also listed expensive clothes for women. Should those be excluded from Mass?

I really, really don’t like belly button rings or tongue, ear, or eye piercings. But does having those things disqualify someone from attending Mass?I agree with you there!

Peace

Tim
I have read somewhere in preparing as a Reader that we should not wear lavish “expensive” clothes that could bring attention to ourselves instead of the word of God. I believe St. Paul was trying to set an example during his time. Women of the first century would use braided hair, gold jewelry, and lavish clothing to bring attention to themselves. This is what St. Paul was wanting to avoid. He didn’t want women bringing attention to themselves instead of our Lord, Jesus Christ. Braided hair and modest jewelry wouldn’t bring attention themselves in today’s times as it would have in St. Paul’s times.
 
Well, I’m hoping that we are just having a miscommunication here, Orogeny.
Actually, I think you and I mostly agree about inappropriate dress. I think that we just disagee with what should be done about it.
I’m probably older than you. Sometimes I think I’m older than dirt. I’m almost 52.
You got me by 5 years and as a geologist I am qualified to tell you that you are much younger than dirt!😉
My dad was 56 when I was born and my grandparents were close to 70 so I got a lot of kind of hands-on ideas of ‘traditions’. . .everything from proper dress to virtues, etc. Not only that, I learned a lot not only from them but from studying history, and ‘observing’ my own.

I and my family (I’ve raised 3 now, all in their 20s) have seen a lot of changes in society–many positive, of course, and many not so. Of course, my ‘anecdotal’ tidbits are just that–anecdotes and personal experience and personal ideas. But other things --like what the Church has consistently taught in those ‘small-t’ things like the ideal of a Catholic man, or woman, or child–the ‘standards’ of Catholic dress, behavior, action, thought–these my family, and I, have learned and studied from quite a long time period and through various ‘eras’.

So when I say that there is such a thing as ‘immodesty’ and ‘modesty’, it is like saying that there is such a thing as vice and virtue. There are of course ‘degrees’ in both–but they are not ‘relative’, they are not ‘changeable’, they are not ‘okay for one and not another’.

Do you understand and agree with me thus far?
Yes, I do.
Do you have a sense (without exploring the ‘modesty’ right now) of what I am trying to say. . which is, The Church has consistently taught ‘standards’ of behavior (to include dress), definitions of virtues and vices. . .and that these things while there may some tiny ‘adaptations’ to particular cultures are not otherwise changeable? That there is a definition of a virtue which is ‘changeless’ and that if, for example, we speak of temperance (which is not just in drink) we don’t suddenly turn around and say that gluttony is ‘all right’ and can actually be temperate for ONE man? Or we don’t suddenly decide that it is temperance which is the vice and gluttony the virtue? (For example, we should all live within our means, right? But there are times when we are told that we should spend ‘beyond our means’ to help support the economy which, being supported, will enable us to be paid more so that we can pay what we spent beyond our means and then some. It’s an attempt to make the ‘gluttony’ appear the real virtue, and temperance a ‘vice’ which keeps our economy mired down!)
I do understand what you are saying. I don’t think that we can change the minds of someone who has, let us say, very poor judgement regarding proper attire for the Mass by keeping them from coming to Mass.

I just have to ask myself if Jesus would stop that person at the door as they are coming to see Him. I’m guessing not.

Peace

Tim

ps - I didn’t mean to mock or insult you earlier. Please accept my apology.
 
Thanks, Bob! 🙂

Orogeny, I keep repeating that it is not or who would ‘ban’ someone from Church.

Did you see my restaurant analogy earlier? If a restaurant wants men to wear ties, and supplies them. . .a man refuses and then claims the restaurant ‘banned him’ --is that the case?

Yep, but we are not talking about a meal at a restaurant, but the ultimate meal!

Peace

Tim
 
Here is a nice written article on dress:

apologeticspress.org/articles/2264
Apologetics Press :: Scripturally Speaking
http://www.apologeticspress.org/themes/AP2/images/pixel.gif
Wearing Gold and Braided Hair?
by Kyle Butt, M.A.
Printer version | Email this article Most people who have read the Bible have at least been mildly perplexed after reading 1 Timothy 2:9-10 and 1 Peter 3:3-4. These two portions of Scripture read as follows:
…in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works (1 Timothy 2:9-10).
Do not let your adornment be that outward adorning of arranging the hair, of wearing gold, or putting on fine apparel; but let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God (1 Peter 3:3-4).
At first glance, these two passages seem to set down strict commandments that women should wear no gold jewelry, and should never braid their hair. However, when these verses are taken in their proper context, and are compared with other verses in the Bible, their seemingly strict prohibitions of gold and braids become more lenient in one sense, and ironically, more strict in another.
When the apostle Paul wrote to the young preacher Timothy, he gave the young man several instructions about how certain groups of people ought to conduct themselves in public worship assemblies. In 1 Timothy chapter 2:9, Paul offered some guidelines for how women ought to dress. Paul said that women should wear “modest” apparel. The Greek word for modest is kosmioi, which means “respectable, honorable, or modest” (Arndt, 1958, p. 445). This word basically entails all apparel that does not call undue attention to the wearer through show of flesh or through gaudiness. The type of apparel is defined by the phrase, “with propriety and moderation.” Then, Paul described the converse of “modest” by mentioning three things that many first-century women were using to draw undue attention to themselves: braided hair, gold, and costly clothing.
In the first century, many women were plaiting elaborate hair designs that would take hours to “construct” and weave. One writer, in describing such first-century hair designs, wrote:
Talk about high maintenance! During the late first century, the Flavian style of Julia, daughter of Titus fashioned the court with curls arranged on crescent-shaped wire frames. The back hair was divided into sections, braided, then curled. Sometimes the hair was coiled without braiding (see Roman…, 2002).
Apparently, some women were turning the worship assemblies into fashion shows, attempting to “one-up” their contemporaries with flashy, expensive clothes and costly gold jewelry. Instead of this gaudiness, Paul instructed the women to adorn themselves in that “which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works.”
In this passage, we see a literary construction that is common in the Bible—the comparison and substitution of one less desirable thing for another more profitable thing. In this particular case, the gaudy clothes were to be rejected in favor of good works and modest clothes. Jesus used a similar construction in John 6:27, when He stated, “Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you…” At first glance, this statement from Jesus seems to be saying that a person should not work for physical food. However, we know that is not the intended meaning, because 2 Thessalonians 3:10 plainly says, “if anyone will not work, neither shall he eat.” What, then, was Jesus’ point? He simply was saying that spiritual food is more important than physical food, and as such, should be given a higher priority.
Another instance of a similar situation is found in 1 Corinthians 11:34. In this chapter, the apostle Paul had been reprimanding the Christians in Corinth for abusing the Lord’s Supper. The rich brethren were bringing lots of food and drink, and were eating their fill, while the poor brethren were not getting enough to eat. Paul explained to the Christians that the Lord’s Supper was not designed to be a feast to fill the belly, but a memorial to commemorate the death of the Lord. In verse 34, he wrote: “But if anyone is hungry, let him eat at home, lest you come together for judgment.” Once again, taken in its most literal sense, this verse would demand that every person who is hungry should eat at home—not in a restaurant, at a friend’s house, or outside. Of course, that was not Paul’s intention at all. He simply wanted the Christians to eat to fill their stomachs at some other time than during the memorial feast of the Lord’s Supper.
After considering these examples, let us now look back to Paul’s instruction to Timothy concerning women’s apparel. If we were to take the passage in its most literal reading, then women should not wear braided hair, any gold, or any costly clothing. However, how much would an article of clothing have to cost in order to be “costly?” Many of the clothes we wear in the United States would cost a person in a third world country an entire year’s salary (Jackson, 2000). Should our women come to worship in burlap sacks and cardboard flip-flops? To ask is to answer. In fact, in 1 Peter 3:3-4, the parallel passage to 1 Timothy 2:9-10, the actual Greek text omits the word “fine” before “apparel” so that it actually says that a woman’s beauty should not come from “putting on apparel.” Yet, taken in its most literal sense, this particular sentence would delight those of the nudist persuasion, and confound the most astute Christians.
Summing up the meaning of these two passages, we see that Paul and Peter were not forbidding a woman from wearing a golden wedding band or having her hair modestly braided. They were, however, instructing the women to concentrate on good works and a right attitude instead of trying to impress others with immodest clothes that were inappropriate or excessively gaudy.
Therefore, these verses are more lenient than their strictly literal sound, in the sense that they do not forbid all wearing of gold, clothes, or braiding of the hair. They are more stringent, however, in the fact that some things not specifically mentioned by the writers would be prohibited. For instance, a woman could not wear thousands of dollars worth of platinum jewelry, and then contend that the verses never mention platinum. Nor could a Christian woman strut into an assembly wearing multiple carats of diamonds worth tens of thousands of dollars, and argue that diamonds are not mentioned in the text. The verses echo the sentiment of Christ, when He scolded the Pharisees for cleansing “the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence” (Matthew 23:25).
[As an endnote, the modest-apparel criteria were not specifically addressed to the first-century men, because they apparently did not have a problem with this. However, in any situation where men might have a problem with such, the same rules certainly would apply to them as well.]
REFERENCES
Arndt, William, F.W. Gingrich, and Frederick W. Danker (1979), A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago, IL: University of Chicago Press), second edition revised.
Jackson, Wayne (2000), What About Braided Hair? [On-line], URL: http//www.christiancourier.com/questions/braidedHairQuestion.htm.
Roman *Hairstyles *(2002), [On-line], URL: oldworld.sjsu.edu/ancientrome/living/fashion/hair02.htm.
 
I have read somewhere in preparing as a Reader that we should not wear lavish “expensive” clothes that could bring attention to ourselves instead of the word of God. I believe St. Paul was trying to set an example during his time. Women of the first century would use braided hair, gold jewelry, and lavish clothing to bring attention to themselves. This is what St. Paul was wanting to avoid. He didn’t want women bringing attention to themselves instead of our Lord, Jesus Christ. Braided hair and modest jewelry wouldn’t bring attention themselves in today’s times as it would have in St. Paul’s times.
St. Paul didn’t say lavish clothes, he said expensive clothes. Not necessarily the same thing.

Look, I understand what you are saying. I keep coming back to that statement because I think that it is actually in line with what I am saying. While St. Paul lists these things as what he thinks should be done, he didn’t say that those who don’t meet his wishes should be kept out of the assembly.

Peace

Tim
 
Braided hair and modest jewelry wouldn’t bring attention themselves in today’s times as it would have in St. Paul’s times.
Right. That is what I meant when I said that there could be minor cultural differences between say the time of Christ and today (or the time of the Middle Ages and today) yet modesty and modest standards do not change.

I know that society in the last 100 years has attempted to claim that certain things were, if not ‘modest’ (you’ll note that word usually goes over like a lead balloon among most people–it is associated with frumpy, dowdy, old-fashioned and unattractive), at least ‘acceptable’.

Before these huge changes, though, society pretty much had consistent standards. For most people, and especially in the last 500 plus years, men wore some type of pants, women a long dress/skirt. Obviously doing ‘field’ work the pants would be shorter and the skirts ‘kilted up’, but when going to church or to a public place or function, the norm was pants/covered legs, covered chest, covered arms for men, and long skirt, covered chest, covered arms for women. (and children).

And those clothes weren’t necessarily dowdy. The Middle Ages especially were much ‘brighter’ colorwise than you would imagine, and people did not wear ‘monochrome’ outfits either. If you look at colored plates of fashions and clothing of the 19th century, you’ll see even the ‘plainest’ skirt would be a bright color. . .or the top would have a trimming, or a pattern, or a bright color–accessories were ‘natural’ but cherry (feathers, flowers). The modest everyday woman looked clean, neat, attractive and stylish. Ditto for the modest everyday man.

Nobody had to be ‘told’ what was ‘modest’. Indeed, a ‘deviation’ stood out!

Now, a lot of people do need to be told that just because it is trendy, ‘everybody wears it’, the stores sell it, the media promotes it, the celebrities wear it, and you can ‘go anywhere’ in it. . .it isn’t necessarily modest, decent, or appropriate.

That doesn’t mean people are stupid, or that those who tell them are Puritans. It means that right now there has been a little ‘upheaval’ that has had a huge impact on the majority of people which has (incorrectly) guided them to a mistaken idea not only about what modesty is, but about what it means, and why it is important.
 
While St. Paul lists these things as what he thinks should be done, he didn’t say that those who don’t meet his wishes should be kept out of the assembly.
He also didn’t tell us that the proper etiquette is to put our cell phones on ‘vibrate’ during Mass.

I keep repeating, are not ‘keeping people out of the assembly’.

In St. Paul’s time, the standards for modesty were well known and accepted. . .as they had always been. People adhered to them. Society demanded them. Those who transgressed in matters of dress may have been ‘accepted’ in certain places (as a prostitute for example might have gone out dressed gaudily, showing her ankles and forearms, etc., to a tavern or a private home, to meet a client, and been 'winked at. Of course, they also risked being arrested, fined, imprisoned. And they certainly didn’t go to a synagogue or temple or ‘assembly’ dressed immodestly.

For thousands of years, it has been society which has (in healthy societies) understood the ‘natural law’ written on the heart and which has encouraged standards of proper, decent behavior. Only in societies which are unhealthy do the standards decay and ‘society’ decides not to ‘enforce them’. . .with the kind of results we are seeing now.

A healthy society would not ‘worry’ about turning away someone immodestly dressed from a church. . .because the person so dressed would not (in decency) present themselves IN IMMODEST CLOTHING. They would certainly go (having gone to confession), dressed APPROPRIATELY, and welcome. But they would not have expected ‘the Church’ to accommodate immodesty ‘for THEM.’
 
I couldn’t disagree more. See this article:

catholicculture.org/library/view.cfm?recnum=3952
you could issue full length burqas at the door to every man, woman and child and someone would complain that the color was too sexy. this is a dead end conversation where the real issues lie with the viewer, not the wearer.

“if your eyes offend you, pluck them out. it is better to go into the kingdom of heaven blind, than sighted into hell”

salaam.
 
I voted male, no

The reason being that yes made it seemed like we would kick out people who we inappropriately dressed. Priests should just take measures such as posting signs on doors and in bulletins that explain what is appropriate and not.
 
you could issue full length burqas at the door to every man, woman and child and someone would complain that the color was too sexy. this is a dead end conversation where the real issues lie with the viewer, not the wearer.

“if your eyes offend you, pluck them out. it is better to go into the kingdom of heaven blind, than sighted into hell”

salaam.
That argument doesn’t have any weight to it whatsoever. We have models of decency in society. Wearing a bikini to church would not be decent. Women going out topless in public would not be decent in most societies. So if a women came to church topless, I don’t think the problem would lie with the viewer instead of the wearer.
 
Orogeny --apology accepted (and thanks for letting me know I’m not quite THAT old).

I think we pretty much agree on all the points.

The only thing that right now I see we differ on is that you think it isn’t up to us (and that means The Church) to 'keep people out" based on dress.

And of course I do see your point. I don’t want to be the cause of somebody ‘missing out’. But. . .am I the cause, or are THEY the cause?

That is where we differ, I think, right now.

I do think that the more we let people ‘do what they want’ or ‘dress as they please’ (so long as they 'show up at Mass), the more they are going to get more and more outrageous. Who would have thought, 40 years ago, that people would dress the way they do now for church, or work? And it does get worse. 10 years ago it wasn’t as bad as today. 20 years ago wasn’t as bad as 10 years ago.

I think it’s time that we accepted that the more we ‘give’, the more will be taken, and that ultimately what seemed like the RIGHT thing to do (be ‘welcoming’) will turn out to be the wrong thing to do. That we must be loving enough not to abjectly acquiese in letting people ‘do as they please’ but firm enough to tell them that yes, there are some things that they MUST do.
 
That argument doesn’t have any weight to it whatsoever. We have models of decency in society. Wearing a bikini to church would not be decent. Women going out topless in public would not be decent in most societies. So if a women came to church topless, I don’t think the problem would lie with the viewer instead of the wearer.
I take that problem just as seriously as I take my own burqa suggestion!

As I said, this is a silly and dead end conversation.

salaam.
 
I have read all 40 posts since I started this thread and really appreciate the (name removed by moderator)ut. I know I spoke about ‘strict controls’ in my initial thread message that I had experienced in the Holy Land and the Vatican but to get the issue addressed in the average church I was thinking not so much about ‘stopping’ attendees but rather that our pastors and bishops ought to be taking the initiative to place posters in the entrance ways of our churches that include ‘defining’ what proper dress is because it seems that allot of people have ‘lost’ touch with what modest dress is to begin with. This approach may serve to ‘awaken’ the ‘deadened’ conscience or lost moral code that they obviously need to reclaim. Secondly, a weekly ‘reminder’ in the bulletin could be a wonderful ‘tool’ to get people to ‘think’ about their demeanor. I really don’t think the major portion of immodestly dressed individuals do it ‘intentionally’ but rather just because nobody is objecting to it. Lastly, if all else fails, I suppose people can talk to an offender but somehow I don’t think that would even be necessary if all these other efforts were put in place! We need to bear in mind that everyone is exposed daily to a barrage of indecent exposure through every means of communication we have, but especially TV, which is ‘conditioning’ people that what they are wearing is acceptable. I believe in the ‘What Would Jesus Do’ approach which I think would be to ‘counter’ this bad propaganda with truthful propaganda as ‘gently’ and lovingly as possible!
 
That argument doesn’t have any weight to it whatsoever. We have models of decency in society. Wearing a bikini to church would not be decent. Women going out topless in public would not be decent in most societies. So if a women came to church topless, I don’t think the problem would lie with the viewer instead of the wearer.
I agree. Furthermore, as Catholics, we believe we are our brothers’ keepers. If I cause a brother to stumble, I am in part responsible for his sin. Furthermore, the sacredness of the Holy Mass demands reverence, and just as it would be irreverent for someone to blast heavy metal music in Mass, so is it irreverent to wear clothing that 1) violates Christian standards of modesty, and 2) takes the focus off of Jesus and puts it onto a person.

It seems there are those, however, who maintain that there is no such thing as “distracting clothing.” Apparently, then, it is fine to wear antlers to Mass, and if people find themselves distracted and the sacredness of the Mass offended, it is simply “their problem.”

In Christianity, my neighbor’s problem becomes MY problem. Especially if I caused the problem in the first place.
 
So Bada:

Do you think there is a problem with no solution --meaning, that people are going to ‘do what they want’ and there is no way that we can ‘stop’ them, so we might as well just accept it?

Or do you think there is no problem at all, no real ‘standard’ for decency or modesty (or none that ‘all’ agree on, which is the same basic idea, if we don’t ‘all’ agree, we can’t really claim to have a standard) therefore the only ‘problem’ is those who claim there is a standard which is not being met?
 
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