Should there be actions taken to improve or even control immodest dress at mass?

[MLindsay]

An outspoken anti-Catholic man that I work with recently attended a Catholic wedding Mass (for a family friend). He observed a scantily dressed woman who then received the Eucharist, which seemed to gleefully satisfy some of his anti-Catholic feelings. Here was my E-response to him. I feel inclined to share this as a Thread after reading the string of threads under Hot Topics under Liturgy & Sacraments (Dress Requirements for Mass). God Bless!:

**Fellas,

As our walls are paper thin, I couldn’t help but overhear earlier about the scantily clad, presumed practicing Catholic woman attending Mass, and then receiving the Eucharist, which is what a practicing Catholic believes is the Body, Blood and Divinity of Jesus Christ (which is why practicing Catholics strongly believe that the Eucharist should not be pocketed, dropped, abused, blasphemed, nor taken by non-Catholics nor by Catholics aware of grave sin in their lives). Unfortunately there is a lot of this that does frequently occur to the Eucharist, and it’s very sad.

Anyway, once in awhile, I also I find myself mightily disturbed and distracted by women, men and children who are dressed inappropriately while at Mass. Or by a squirmy child or by a whispering, restless adult, or by those people that bolt out of Mass right after getting Communion so they can be the first out of the parking lot. As a reverant person, who really loves and believes and struggles hard to practice the Faith, it’s hard for me to observe these things done by people who seemingly “just don’t get it”. You wonder why they even show up. You wonder why they are allowed to get away with it. It used to really bother me, too, but now I tend to turn to prayer that (these people) have an awakening brought to them by the Holy Spirit. That they stop being “pew warmers” and start being Faithful Children of Christ, whether it be through the Catholic church or through attendence at another beloved Christian celebration.

That aside, the thought that popped into my head as I overheard these concerns, earlier, about the scantily clad woman, was: “We are all naked in the eyes of the Lord”. While she was dressed immodestly and inappropriately, I don’t believe that it is a sin to dress “lightly” unless, of course, she was also behaving in a lude and lascivious manner (such as in an obvious attempt to lure someone into lustful thoughts while in the presence of the Lord). It also occurs to me that she may have forgot her shawl meant to be worn at the wedding Mass, to then later be removed while at the wedding reception. Hopefully, through her ridiculous attire, it wasn’t her intent to purposefully insult the Church and to purposefully blaspheme the Eucharist…but, only God can know what is in her heart.

I hope you don’t mind me sharing my thoughts on a subject I wasn’t even officially involved in!! ( - :**

 

[Lisa_Galli]

The way people dress at mass is one of my pet peeves. I know that society is so casual, but we have to remember where we are and who we are going to meet at mass. I think if Jesus went to the park or the beach or even if he wanted to show up at a bar to hang with some potential sinners, he would expect dress for those situations. We are in His House. He invited us. Yes, there are people who can’t afford a lot of clothes, but in the old days poorer people had church clothes. The priest doesn’t wear flip flops, shorts and t shirts when it is hot. If your kids or even you yourself wear t shirts with skulls, logos and even Mickey Mouse on them who are you promoting. Think about mass as your time to show Jesus how important he is to you. Your clothes should express your feelings. Did you just happen to show up or did you prepare yourself with prayers, heart, joy, and yes appropriate clothes.
Lisa

 

[NPC]

This is a topic which always causes much debate. I contributed to a thread last December on the topic of clothing for Mass. I did express the same point as you - that despite how inappropriately one may appear to dress, only God can know what is in their heart - i.e. whether or not their primary reason for being at Mass is God, rather than making a fashion statement etc. That is undoubtedly true - only God can know such things. However, on that thread, we all agreed that in terms of clothing, modesty should be the guiding factor.

There are certain customs which most people are familiar with regarding clothing when entering the presence of God - for example, it is usually considered appropriate for a man to remove his hat on entering a church, while it is often seen as irreverent to enter a church with ones shoulders uncovered - I have found churches in France to be particularly strict on this aspect of clothing.

Of course, given that this was a nuptial Mass, the situation is quite different to an ordinary weekday Mass, for example. Given that this lady most likely knew for weeks or even months that she would be attending this Mass, she had ample opportunity to consider a more appropriate and modest dress. Had the decision to attend Mass been just a spur of the moment thing, the situation and question of modesty could be quite different as her sudden desire to meet Christ at Mass may not have allowed her the opportunity to consider changing her attire in time for Mass. However, in both scenarios, the person in question should do their utmost to try and present themselves in the manner of commonly accepted customs.

 

[Dempsey1919]

Remember, Christ sat with sinners and “tax collectors” during his earthly ministry. With that in mind, do you think Christ is going to judge people because they don’t dress according to another person’s standards?

I think this person should focus on himself and his relationship with Christ instead of judging others.

 

[Phemie]

It’s not only weddings.

I have had occasion to stand with parents and godparents while helping out during baptisms and it always amazes me what women opt to wear on these occasions. Some of the younger moms & godmothers seem to be dressed in their finest ‘going out to the nightclub’ clothing: halter tops and tight pants; dresses cut down to there and up to here; etc. Makes me wonder if we should include a section on ‘what to wear to your child’s baptism’ in the preparation classes.

 

[Newbie2]

I would question whether or not it is appropriate to give an unsolicited opinion on the subject in response to a converstion that one is not party to.

 

[Laurent_LUG]

First off all , I’m not catholic ,
actually , I am no more (since many years) !!

I’ve seen 5 pages from this thread ,
this was enough for me !!

The thread started as a thread complaining about dressing immodestly. Fashion and modesty are not the same.

It is not dress down day.

Ok , at the time I was 12 and I still HAD to go with my parents ,
I remember a couple of punk guys attended mass ,
people were really looking at them !!
Outside , later on , people were telling nasty comments , like:
those punks were disgraceful , etc … !!

Also , other times ,
when you were not wearing new clothes after while ,
the “regulars” , oh boy , their comments …

My question:
What is for you believers the most important:

1. Your belief ??
2. clothes ??
3. It doesn’t matter !!

Salute & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:
– Laurent LUG (.@…), september 17, 2008

 

[Nickkname]

I don’t know if it is just a local problem at my own church but I must say that attending church on Sundays in particular is like a day at the beach! I cannot believe how immodestly so many people dress…especially teenagers. It not only takes away the ‘main’ purpose of being there, which is to worship God, but causes sinful thoughts and desires at the one place that should be a ‘safe haven’ from the problem that is prevalent everywhere else. My question is “Should our pastors assert themselves aggressively to stop this practice?” I have heard priests say “well at least they are going to mass!” I heard others say that when they were teenagers, the ‘view’ was what they liked about going to mass on Sundays. It is all so frustrating. These priests who are supposed to be ‘shepherding’ their people seem to be ‘looking’ the other way. Recently, while visiting the Holy Land, I was told that I could not wear ‘shorts above the knee’ to enter ANY of the shrines. I thought it was wonderful! This was told to me by a Franciscan priest who, like all Franciscans, where a long brown tunic every day whether it is ‘too hot’ or not! They truly lead by example! No one is allowed entry into the Vatican who is dressed immodestly. This is ‘enforced’ by security guards. My pastor told me that was because it is a shrine. What is the difference? Isn’t Jesus just as present in the Tabernacle of our local church as He is in shrines? It seems to me the ‘least’ they should do is to post signs at the entrance of the church and/or print guidelines in the bulletin. What do YOU Think???

Speaking as an ex-Eucharistic Minister, I can tell you parishioners and visitors alike NEED to wear modest dress. I know because immodest dress caused me to stop ministering. I tried my hardest to stay pure when the parishioners came up for Holy Communion, but no matter what there was always women who came up with little t-shirts or midriffs or even (the worst) over-the-shoulder tops. I couldn’t take it anymore and just stopped ministering.

I told our Pastor there needs to be a sign outside the church that says people have to dress appropriately. The Pastor told everyone to come dressed appropriately. That did nothing. I told him again a sign needs to be made, but no sign was made. I than suggested having an usher stop people at the door who are dressed improperly, but that idea was rejected as well.

Modest dress is mandatory for the Eucharist - not just the parishioners, but also for the Priest and the Eucharistic Ministers. I know the Vatican City-State has Swiss Guard stop people at the entrances who are dressed immodestly, but that’s a City-State, not a parish in a country. Still, something should be done to improve the modesty of dress, either a sign or an usher should do, in my opinion. Little reminders in the church bulletin also couldn’t hurt.

 

[westboro]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

I would have dragged mine to Church and allowed them to feel embarrassed, but that’s me. I think going, which we are gravely obligated to do, is more important that how we are dressed.

[SIGN][/SIGN]

I think it is an assumption to consider that others would feel embarrassed in a given situation. Unfortunately, all too many people have all but ‘destroyed’ their conscience, according to Fr Corapi. Now, since our society has been inundated with immorality, ‘ignorance’ is prevalent. People, especially young people need to be educated and informed on matters that use to come ‘natural’ to us in days of old. Once the ‘enlightenment’ is given, yes…they will probably feel embarrassed!

 

[Love_the_Lorax]

I think you are so right in this - many, many people have not been educated in this matter, especially younger people. Therefore, to judge their hearts would be wrong, since they may truly and honestly be surprised at how their clothing choices impact others. However, and this is big to me, they will never be educated if we don’t take the time and effort to do so. Why would it be so wrong to post a very basic dress code? Various eating/shopping establishments do it all the time. I don’t see this as a matter of being judgmental or anything, just letting people know what basic dress guidelines are required. No strapless dresses perhaps… etc.

Just my 2 cents…

I think it is an assumption to consider that others would feel embarrassed in a given situation. Unfortunately, all too many people have all but ‘destroyed’ their conscience, according to Fr Corapi. Now, since our society has been inundated with immorality, ‘ignorance’ is prevalent. People, especially young people need to be educated and informed on matters that use to come ‘natural’ to us in days of old. Once the ‘enlightenment’ is given, yes…they will probably feel embarrassed!

 

[JKS]

In light of yesterday’s Gospel, where Christ said that prostitutes will enter the Kingdom of heaven ahead of us (remember, originally, the term Pharisee described those who tried really hard to follow God’s laws), we need to remember that first we welcome others, then we seek to convert them. I think conversations and attitudes like those in this thread are what caused “Pharisee” to become an epithet.

I realize that it’s a little more difficult for men to ignore immodest dress then it is for women, but you should have your eyes shut after Communion, not looking at who’s wearing what, or noting the ratio of communicants to penitents. Stick with examining your own conscience, no matter how tempted you are to examine someone else’s, and you’ll be much happier.

 

[Love_the_Lorax]

You are quite right - of course we need to welcome others. I hope I didn’t imply otherwise, I certainly meant no offense. I also cringe at the idea of offending our Lord - not by turning away those who truly come to seek Him, but by giving the idea that dressing decently is of no great importance. As you said, first we welcome those who are searching. ABSOLUTELY!!! I have no desire to turn away a soul because their skirt was 2 inches too short. Yet, what about those who are already members of the congregation, and know what the Eucharist is for us? Do we also tell those members that anything goes for them by continued silence on the subject? I’m honestly not being sarcastic, but searching for answers because the state of dress of some members in my parish can cause me to blush - and I’m a woman. You commented that after Communion our eyes should be closed, and that is certainly true. But in the house of the Lord, how much / often should worshippers have to turn their eyes during the whole liturgy? It in those matters that I am struggling, not wanting to be a Pharisee, but wanting to give all honor and respect to the Lord in the Mass. There have been saints that had strong words on this subject.

Heaven knows that as of this moment I do NOT have the wisdom of Solomon to make such decisions on these matters though! I simply joined on this thread to discuss the matter and try to work through some of my own concerns. This thread has given me much to think and pray about as I search for answers.

One of the things I that SO appreciate in our Church is the Holy See, and his guiding of our Church. Unless Rome decides that things have gone too far and issues a decree regarding this subject, this will be an area that believers continue to discuss and pray about and thats ok. Isn’t that why the forums are here? To discuss ideas and learn from each other.

In light of yesterday’s Gospel, where Christ said that prostitutes will enter the Kingdom of heaven ahead of us (remember, originally, the term Pharisee described those who tried really hard to follow God’s laws), we need to remember that first we welcome others, then we seek to convert them. I think conversations and attitudes like those in this thread are what caused “Pharisee” to become an epithet.

I realize that it’s a little more difficult for men to ignore immodest dress then it is for women, but you should have your eyes shut after Communion, not looking at who’s wearing what, or noting the ratio of communicants to penitents. Stick with examining your own conscience, no matter how tempted you are to examine someone else’s, and you’ll be much happier.

 

[JKS]

Love Lorax,
I don’t want to reread the whole thread in order to remember which posters I’m referring to but I don’t think it was you. I just think that this is the best frame of mind (frame of soul?) to have when trying to address the “problem” of sinners in church. We might be in a hurry to fix it, but remember, anyone who feels welcome, is more likely to keep coming back and eventually allow God to help, in His time. In the meantime, are you certain it’s the same people? Maybe immodestly dressed people are gradually replacing their wardrobe, while other immodestly dressed people are finding a welcome?

 

[Love_the_Lorax]

Hmmm, good question. Some are the same, but you are right - perhaps some are slowing covering up more.

Thank you for your kind reply!

Love Lorax,
I don’t want to reread the whole thread in order to remember which posters I’m referring to but I don’t think it was you. I just think that this is the best frame of mind (frame of soul?) to have when trying to address the “problem” of sinners in church. We might be in a hurry to fix it, but remember, anyone who feels welcome, is more likely to keep coming back and eventually allow God to help, in His time. In the meantime, are you certain it’s the same people? Maybe immodestly dressed people are gradually replacing their wardrobe, while other immodestly dressed people are finding a welcome?