Should this be permitted? Your opinions please

[Julia_Mae]

I understand for those of you that are Non-Knanaya the topic of endogamy is a rather trying one and hard to understand. But for us Knananites it is apart of our tradition and a basic fundamental of our community.

I feel like you aren’t hearing what people are saying. I said this:

They aren’t supposed to be Knanaya Churches. They are supposed to be Catholic - universal - Christian churches.

You understand? You are Catholics. You are just like us. We are just like the Catholics in China and Kenya and Russia. Being Catholic is about God and His Church and that is first, before everything else. You said that endogamy was part of your tradition and culture. It was part of ours, too. Now it isn’t. Things change. I mean, sorry to be so blunt, but you seem to only be interested in whatever would agree that you have been victimized. * You have not*. I also said this:

Endogamy is antithetical to Christianity. “Fair” is a word the devil invented to keep us all feeling like victims. Church authority has spoken, accept this as God’s will and help others accept it in humility and gratitude.

Yes, things will change. * You are Catholic first.* You obey your Bishop first. Whatever privileges you were allowed were not dogmatic or doctrinal or permanent and any Bishop can change them anytime and I guarantee you the Pope will side with the Bishop.

You want to make the conversation about “fairness.” No such thing. The issue is: you are Catholic. Period. Just like all the rest of us. And if this endogamy business and your cultural practices have caused you to not accept that you are just like all the rest of us, then you can see why the Bishop has changed things. Or, maybe he just felt like it. He’s the Bishop and he doesn’t owe anyone an explanation of his actions and you are only required to obey. * Like all the rest of us.* Let me say again:

Church authority has spoken, accept this as God’s will and help others accept it in humility and gratitude.

 

[Denho]

I feel like you aren’t hearing what people are saying. I said this:

They aren’t supposed to be Knanaya Churches. They are supposed to be Catholic - universal - Christian churches.

You understand? You are Catholics. You are just like us. We are just like the Catholics in China and Kenya and Russia. Being Catholic is about God and His Church and that is first, before everything else. You said that endogamy was part of your tradition and culture. It was part of ours, too. Now it isn’t. Things change. I mean, sorry to be so blunt, but you seem to only be interested in whatever would agree that you have been victimized. * You have not*. I also said this:

Endogamy is antithetical to Christianity. “Fair” is a word the devil invented to keep us all feeling like victims. Church authority has spoken, accept this as God’s will and help others accept it in humility and gratitude.

Yes, things will change. * You are Catholic first.* You obey your Bishop first. Whatever privileges you were allowed were not dogmatic or doctrinal or permanent and any Bishop can change them anytime and I guarantee you the Pope will side with the Bishop.

You want to make the conversation about “fairness.” No such thing. The issue is: you are Catholic. Period. Just like all the rest of us. And if this endogamy business and your cultural practices have caused you to not accept that you are just like all the rest of us, then you can see why the Bishop has changed things. Or, maybe he just felt like it. He’s the Bishop and he doesn’t owe anyone an explanation of his actions and you are only required to obey. * Like all the rest of us.* Let me say again:

Church authority has spoken, accept this as God’s will and help others accept it in humility and gratitude.

Not quite.

Leaving aside the whole issue of endogamy (I have no dog in that fight), it is not acceptable to say “you are Catholic and that is that.” There no so such thing as “just Catholic.” That idea is utterly farcical. The only thing that “Catholic” means outside of the textbook definition is that one is in communion with the Bishop of Rome. One is either Roman, or Melkite, or Syro-Malankara, or Ukrainian, etc. These are Churches in the fullest sense and that is what we are. It is not just ethnicity or nationality that distinguishes us from each other. We are not the same - we have different theology, spirituality, hierarchy, law, and histories and traditions that are entirely unintelligible to a Roman mind.

To dismiss the practice of a community that has existed for 1700 years and just say “you are ‘Catholic’, you can’t be different” is antithetical to the whole idea of Communion.

The Latin Church may be perfectly happy flushing its traditions and patrimony down the drain every 500 years or so but don’t expect the rest of us to be quite so content with the whole idea.

And then there is the whole can of worms with the Congregation of Oriental Churches meddling with things again… but that has been done to death.

 

[Julia_Mae]

Not quite.

Leaving aside the whole issue of endogamy (I have no dog in that fight), it is not acceptable to say “you are Catholic and that is that.” There no so such thing as “just Catholic.” That idea is utterly farcical.

It’s Jesus’ idea, Denho, not mine, and hardly farcical. I said “Catholic.” Not “Roman Catholic.” That’s Universal. And whether Roman, or Melkite or even Orthodox, I’ve yet to hear that it’s up to the laity to decide what is “allowed.” In this case, the Bishop has spoken. That’s it.

We are one, or we are supposed to be. That oneness doesn’t mean “identical.” It does mean that first we are Catholic Christians. Before all other things. If we aren’t, then we are attached to something from which we need to be unattached.

 

[newlywed8]

OP,

I can understand why you may be upset. Although the practice is foreign to the sensibilities of many westerners, it is a tradition highly valued within your community. However, I caution you in your anger, because the bishop does have the authority to do so. He is the head of your local church.

I would also suggest you prayerfully consider the action to be an oeconomia (or whatever the equivelant would be in the Syro Malabar), a relaxing of the law for the spiritual benefit of the people. As our various churches have come to the US and the rest of the western world, they have had to deal with things that were not common or just not done in the old world, such as religious intermarriage, and each had sought to develop policies to guide the faithful.

In India, the practice is most likely far more practical. There is a higher population and the population is more concentrated. This means young people are able to find spouses, or their parents can find them spouses (not sure if arranged marriage is common within the church), much easier. In the United States, children often go to public or Catholic schools, interact with students of all backgrounds, and have to deal with heavy secularization. It is hard enough to find a practicing Catholic or Orthodox, much less a specific member of the Syro Malabar church.

The practice was most likely relaxed to help people remain with the church and show understanding to the cultural challenges they face. Remember the role of the church is to help people maintain and grow in their faith. In India, it may have been helpful for this to be accomplished by keeping people isolated to prevent them from losing their traditions. In the US, it may be accomplished better by allowing people to marry outside the commuity and continue to practice rather than lose the whole family to non-Catholic churches or no religion at all.

 

[april32010]

Identifying individual parishes, clergy, or hierarchs as “unfaithful to the Magisterium”, guilty of “liturgical abuse”, or otherwise engaged in unacceptable or unpopular practices, based on personal “knowledge” or opinion

Negative and rude comments toward clergy (deacons, priests and bishops) or toward religious and religious orders are banned.

 

[malphono]

My question to you all is not if you think endogamy or Knanaya customs are proper but is that do you think this decree is fair upon Knanayas? If the Pope himself agreed that Kottayam Diocese can be endogamous and just for Knanayas. Than why is it than when Knananites go else where this right should be taken away? If Knanaya Churches were allowed to be built under the St.Thomas Syro Malabar Diocese, can we not preserve and maintain our rights?

This decree was originally issued to Knanaya Churches under the St.Thomas Diocese by the Congregation for Oriental Churches in 1986. Bishop Angadiath is restating this decree because Knanaya Churches have not been following it for 26 years. We have been trying to get this decree re-scripted ever since.

The more I see and learn about the Knanaya, the more convinced I am that it behooves the faithful and Knanaya clergy to organize and formally petition Kottayam and/or Rome for a separate jurisdiction for the Syro-Malabar Knanaya in North America. Perhaps I’m wrong, but it appears that there are sufficient Knanaya parishes and missions in the US to warrant and support it.

 

[mardukm]

The more I see and learn about the Knanaya, the more convinced I am that it behooves the faithful and Knanaya clergy to organize and formally petition Kottayam and/or Rome for a separate jurisdiction for the Syro-Malabar Knanaya in North America. Perhaps I’m wrong, but it appears that there are sufficient Knanaya parishes and missions in the US to warrant and support it.

I believe there was already a thread some time in the past. As I stated in that other thread, the problem seems to be finding a bishop to support such a petition. The laity can petition all they want, but it seems that without the support of a local ordinary, it will not get anywhere. It’s possible to petition Rome directly, of course, but how far will that get?

As far as I know, the only time Rome has any real practical effectiveness on a matter for which the laity appeals to Rome is on purely personal matters that affect the petitioners and only the petitioners (e.g., marriage issues). But when the lay petitioner appeals on a matter that involves an entire Church, Rome necessarily consults, and normally sides, with the/a local ordinary.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[malphono]

I believe there was already a thread some time in the past. As I stated in that other thread, the problem seems to be finding a bishop to support such a petition. The laity can petition all they want, but it seems that without the support of a local ordinary, it will not get anywhere. It’s possible to petition Rome directly, of course, but how far will that get?

As far as I know, the only time Rome has any real practical effectiveness on a matter for which the laity appeals to Rome is on purely personal matters that affect the petitioners and only the petitioners (e.g., marriage issues). But when the lay petitioner appeals on a matter that involves an entire Church, Rome necessarily consults, and normally sides, with the/a local ordinary.

Yes, all of that is true, (particularly the last sentence but I digress and really don’t want to get into that argument again anyway), and that’s precisely why I mentioned **clergy **along with laity. It’s also why I mentioned Kottayam. It’s far more likely that a petition from the clergy will get a fairer hearing and if Kottayam is involved, the chances are better still.

 

[Thomas48]

I feel like you aren’t hearing what people are saying. I said this:

They aren’t supposed to be Knanaya Churches. They are supposed to be Catholic - universal - Christian churches.

You understand? You are Catholics. You are just like us. We are just like the Catholics in China and Kenya and Russia. Being Catholic is about God and His Church and that is first, before everything else. You said that endogamy was part of your tradition and culture. It was part of ours, too. Now it isn’t. Things change. I mean, sorry to be so blunt, but you seem to only be interested in whatever would agree that you have been victimized. * You have not*. I also said this:

Endogamy is antithetical to Christianity. “Fair” is a word the devil invented to keep us all feeling like victims. Church authority has spoken, accept this as God’s will and help others accept it in humility and gratitude.

Yes, things will change. * You are Catholic first.* You obey your Bishop first. Whatever privileges you were allowed were not dogmatic or doctrinal or permanent and any Bishop can change them anytime and I guarantee you the Pope will side with the Bishop.

You want to make the conversation about “fairness.” No such thing. The issue is: you are Catholic. Period. Just like all the rest of us. And if this endogamy business and your cultural practices have caused you to not accept that you are just like all the rest of us, then you can see why the Bishop has changed things. Or, maybe he just felt like it. He’s the Bishop and he doesn’t owe anyone an explanation of his actions and you are only required to obey. * Like all the rest of us.* Let me say again:

Church authority has spoken, accept this as God’s will and help others accept it in humility and gratitude.

These churches were created for the the Knanaya faithful under the St.Thomas Syro Malabar diocese. So in fact they are in all ways Knanaya Churches. The boards outside our churches say i.e “St.Marys Knanaya Catholic Church”. The vicars, all other clergy, and the members of these churches are Knanaya.

I feel that many of you are mixing endogamy and excommunication. Knanaya Catholics are in fact members of the Syro Malabar Church. We just have our own parishes, priests, bishops, and Archdiocese (It really doesn’t make sense why we’re members of the Syro Malabar Church but yes we are). In India, If a Knanaya marries a Non-Knanaya, he looses his membership to Kottayam Diocese and becomes a member of the close by Syro Malabar Diocese or if he chooses, the diocese of his spouse (whatever church they belong to). In America since Knanayas don’t have a diocese, If a Knanaya marries a Non-Knanaya he looses membership to his parish and joins the parish of his spouse. Knanayas never excommunicate anyone, you are still a member of the Syro Malabar Church and you may still continue to share in the Holy Qurbana at Knanaya Churches.

 

[Julia_Mae]

These churches were created for the the Knanaya faithful under the St.Thomas Syro Malabar diocese…

Who is your Ordinary?

 

[Thomas48]

Who is your Ordinary?

His Grace Metropolitan Archbishop Mar Mathew Moolakkattu

The funny part of this whole issue is that before the creation of the St.Thomas Syro Malabar Diocese, Knanaya churches only supported the creation of the diocese because we were promised that endogamous parishes would be allowed. Looks like that was a big sham.

 

[Julia_Mae]

His Grace Metropolitan Archbishop Mar Mathew Moolakkattu

This is from your op:

On Christmas mass vicars at Knanaya Churches explained to their parishes that under the St.Thomas Syro Malabar Diocese of Chicago, Bishop Mar Jacob Angadiath has decreed that endogamy may no longer be practiced in Knanaya Churches

Does Angadiath take precedence?

 

[Thomas48]

Does Angadiath take precedence?

Mar Jacob Angadiath is a well respected and humble bishop but he is no bishop to the Knanaya Catholics. The situation between the diocese and the Knanaya parishes has gotten to a point where Knanaya parishes no longer give homage to the diocese nor do they pay the diocese fees. Why share the fees of a diocese that favors its 40 Syro Malabar parishes but disregards its 20 Knanaya Parishes? Like I said, our bishop is Metropolitan Mar Mathew Moolakkattu of Kottayam Archdiocese.

 

[Vico]

Mar Jacob Angadiath has jurisdiction in the USA for the Syro-Malabar Catholics.

 

[Julia_Mae]

Mar Jacob Angadiath is a well respected and humble bishop but he is no bishop to the Knanaya Catholics. The situation between the diocese and the Knanaya parishes has gotten to a point where Knanaya parishes no longer give homage to the diocese nor do they pay the diocese fees. Why share the fees of a diocese that favors its 40 Syro Malabar parishes but disregards its 20 Knanaya Parishes? Like I said, our bishop is Metropolitan Mar Mathew Moolakkattu of Kottayam Archdiocese.

So you’re in schism?

See, if what you say is correct, why would you even post the thread or care what he said? This is an issue of faith and obedience. If you don’t think it is, just ignore him as you have been doing. What’s all the huhu about?

 

[Thomas48]

Mar Jacob Angadiath has jurisdiction in the USA for the Syro-Malabar Catholics.

Of course Mar Jacob Angadiath is our Bishop all in paper and writ though , Knanayas just have in a sense, more allegiance to Kottayam.

So you’re in schism?

See, if what you say is correct, why would you even post the thread or care what he said? This is an issue of faith and obedience. If you don’t think it is, just ignore him as you have been doing. What’s all the huhu about?

Disobedience with reason, protest would be a more appropriate word. And my only point of this thread was to ask you all if this decree should be allowed or if it is even valid. Is it just towards the Knanaya Catholics?

 

[Thomas48]

Mar Jacob Angadiath is not our problem he is a great bishop the decree is our problem. He even said when he explained the decree to Knanayas, “I do not agree with this decree but Rome has spoken and as a bishop I must follow my instruction”. He is just following orders.

Us Knanayas are at a stand still, because both our bishops have two different ideals. When Archbishop Mar Moolakkattu visits the U.S he says the exact opposite of what Mar Angadiath says on the topic of endogamy. Obviously Mar Moolakkattu supporting endogamy and Mar Angadaith following his instructions. Basically Mar Angadiath owns our churches but Mar Moolakkattu owns the community. In heart and soul he Mar Moolakkattu is our bishop, he is the head of the Knanaya Catholic Church.

 

[Vico]

Mar Jacob Angadiath is not our problem he is a great bishop the decree is our problem. He even said when he explained the decree to Knanayas, “I do not agree with this decree but Rome has spoken and as a bishop I must follow my instruction”. He is just following orders.

Us Knanayas are at a stand still, because both our bishops have two different ideals. When Archbishop Mar Moolakkattu visits the U.S he says the exact opposite of what Mar Angadiath says on the topic of endogamy. Obviously Mar Moolakkattu supporting endogamy and Mar Angadaith following his instructions. Basically Mar Angadiath owns our churches but Mar Moolakkattu owns the community. In heart and soul he Mar Moolakkattu is our bishop, he is the head of the Knanaya Catholic Church.

It seems the the Metropolitan Archeparchy of Kottayam does not have jurisdiction in the USA. I could see the creation of a new Exarchy in the USA for the Southists as one means to a solution. My guess is that the Congregation for Eastern Churches does not want to split the Syro-Malabar and Syro-Malankara Churches into two additional Churches sui iuris for the Knanaya of each.

 

[LilyM]

Mar Jacob Angadiath is not our problem he is a great bishop the decree is our problem. He even said when he explained the decree to Knanayas, “I do not agree with this decree but Rome has spoken and as a bishop I must follow my instruction”. He is just following orders.

Us Knanayas are at a stand still, because both our bishops have two different ideals. When Archbishop Mar Moolakkattu visits the U.S he says the exact opposite of what Mar Angadiath says on the topic of endogamy. Obviously Mar Moolakkattu supporting endogamy and Mar Angadaith following his instructions. Basically Mar Angadiath owns our churches but Mar Moolakkattu owns the community. In heart and soul he Mar Moolakkattu is our bishop, he is the head of the Knanaya Catholic Church.

You don’t have two bishops, you have one - who is Mar Jacob. If he has been ordered by his superiors (which can only mean the Vatican since Mar Moolakkattu has no jurisdiction and therefore no right to be giving orders), then petitioning the Vatican would do no good as it would seem they have already spoken in giving the orders.

And we are to be obedient as far as our duties to God permit. If the orders were sinful, unduly onerous or impossible, then you might have a case for protest and disobedience. I see no cause in the case as you have described it.

 

[Thomas48]

It seems the the Metropolitan Archeparchy of Kottayam does not have jurisdiction in the USA. I could see the creation of a new Exarchy in the USA for the Southists as one means to a solution. My guess is that the Congregation for Eastern Churches does not want to split the Syro-Malabar and Syro-Malankara Churches into two additional Churches sui iuris for the Knanaya of each.

There would only be one exarchy if one was to be created. It would be same as the Kottayam Diocese. The Syro Malankara Knanayas would fall under the same diocese and they would mostly likely receive a vicar general. Im not sure but I don’t think Syro Malankara Knananites have a parish in the U.S. There are only Syro Malabar Knanayas and Knanaya Jacobites.

You don’t have two bishops, you have one - who is Mar Jacob. If he has been ordered by his superiors (which can only mean the Vatican since Mar Moolakkattu has no jurisdiction and therefore no right to be giving orders), then petitioning the Vatican would do no good as it would seem they have already spoken in giving the orders.

And we are to be obedient as far as our duties to God permit. If the orders were sinful, unduly onerous or impossible, then you might have a case for protest and disobedience. I see no cause in the case as you have described it.

The orders are impossible and baseless. It is not appropriate for Rome to tell a 1700 year old community that your practices are outdated and you must cease to continue them. If Rome has such a problem why would they allow endogamy to continue in the Kottayam Diocese?