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Cristiano
Guest
First you are making statements based on your emotions and not facts. Second it is appropriate or Rome to do whatever the Church considers pastorally appropriate for the good of the whole Church.
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Thomas48
Guest
Removing Knanaya Endogamy in just the United States benefits the whole church how?
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Julia_Mae
Guest
So you’re in schism.
That’s what Martin Luther said.
The very wording of the question shows your total lack of humility and rejection of ecclesiastical authority. Stop whining and obey your Bishop. Stop creating scandal and fomenting schism. Confess your sin, and get your heart right. Accept this as God’s will, for all authority is granted by God. Good luck.
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jmcrae
Guest
If you are in the United States, you are not Knanaya - you are American. American rules apply, in that case; not Knanaya.
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Cavaradossi
Guest
It is canonically more complicated than that. Catholics remain canonically in the church of their birth or baptism, unless they apply for a canonical transfer. Of course, I don’t think the Knanaya Catholics have their own Church sui juris, which makes their situation more interesting to say the least.
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Vico
Guest
The logic is that one is a member of only one Church sui iuris. Knanaya are members of different ritual Churches today such as Syro-Malabar, Syro-Malankara, and Latin.
St. Mary’s Knanaya Catholic Parish of Chicago (Morton Grove) serves the Knanaya Catholics in communion with the St. Thomas Syro-Malabar Catholic Diocese of Chicago and the Archeparchy of Kottayam, and has liturgical services in the Syro-Malabar and Syro-Malankara Rites.
We extend our ministry to the Malankara Knanaya Catholic Community of Chicago as well. Once a month, our vicar celebrates Holy Mass in the Malankara Catholic Rite at the Knanaya Catholic Church. The Chicago Mission is proud to have a convent housing two religious sisters: Sr. Mariam SIC and Sr. Anaswara SIC. We appreciate their love-filled services and support for the activities of the church.
syromalankarausa.org/content/st-marys-chicago-church-history
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Aramis
Guest
It is firmly within the power of the Church to tell you to leave them behind when you enter the “real world” outside India. In exactly the same way the Ruthenians were told to leave behind ordination of Married men to the priesthood. In exactly the same way the Ukrainians were told to abandon their latinizations.
It’s a practice that’s never been approved of by Rome, merely tolerated by Rome as an artifact of the Indian culture that needed (and continues to need) accommodation, for it is a denial of the Unity of the Church to practice Endogamy within a subset of the Church.
If an individual chooses to restrict their choice of potential spouses on the grounds of ethnic or cultural basis, that’s one thing; it might even be a sin in itself, if the reasoning behind it is itself sinful (racial hatred, for example). It’s another for a diocese to enforce endogamy (as Kottayam does - the Kottayam diocese will not perform the wedding if it violates endogamy), but outside Kottayam (who was granted an exception to the Law), it is utterly reprehensible to expect the bishops to violate extant canon law which calls all Catholics equal before the Church without prejudice on the basis of race, ethnicity, or nationality.
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DL82
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One question which occurs to me is how large is the Knanaya community in the Chicago archdiocese? Could there be a legitimate pastoral concern that endogamy in a small gene-pool could lead to genetic problems down the line? I know this is not a problem in India, but if your parishes in the United States only have a few families, is there a risk that American Knanayas could end up like the Parsees in a few generations’ time?
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Thomas48
Guest
Your saying give up the identity of the Knanaya Community? Merge into the Syro Malabar Church? Why would we abandon our practices that we have upheld for centuries? Along with our Knanaya Jacobite brothers we have every right to continue endogamy. Even in America the Syriac Orthodox Church allows the Knanaya Jacobites to continue endogamy, I do not understand why the Catholic Church has such a problem. In India the Syro Malabar Church granted the Knanaya Catholics personal jurisdiction and exemption. Why has this become such a problem in the U.S.
Yes that is true but Kottayam Archdiocese has the pastoral duty of taking care of Syro Malankara Knananites. Even though they are members of a differant sui juris, Knanaya Syro Malankara Churches are under the Syro Malabar Knanaya Kottayam Diocese. Perhaps a diocese of this sort could be created in the U.S.
Since when was India not the real world? I know you all may think of India of third world nation but the state of Kerala, where the St.Thomas Christians thrive has a 100% Literacy Rate. Endogamy is no artifact of Indian culture, you may want to refer to my earlier post but endogamy is a practice following the teachings of the Jewish Prophets Ezra and Nehemiah. Pope John Paul II on handing over Kottayam Diocese to the newly created Syro Malabar Major Archeparchial Church, reported in 2005 that the customs and traditions of Kottayam Diocese must be preserved and upheld. If endogamy was merely tolerated im sure the pope would not have included this memo.
There are around 30,000 Knanaya Catholics in the U.S with 20 parishes. That number may have increased by now.
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Thomas48
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I think what a lot of you don’t understand is that the Catholic Church actually allows Knanaya Churches just for Knanayas here in the U.S. What that means is only Knanaya persons may be members of these churches. What the Catholic Church does not allow us to do is slate the membership of those Knanayas that marry Non-Knanaya spouses. So what the church is saying is those persons born of two Knanaya parents may retain their membership to Knanaya Churches for their whole life. In India the church allows the revoking of membership when a Knanaya marries a Non-Knanaya and that permission is what the community wants in the U.S.
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Aramis
Guest
No, we get that. Well, at least I do. I think it is also a serious wrong, especially since Canon Law does not permit forced change of ascription. It in fact forbids coercion in the change of ascription.
CCEO Canon 31: “No one can presume in any way to induce the Christian faithful to transfer to another Church sui iuris.”
CCEO Canon 33 essentially bars endogamy within the Catholic Communion: “A wife is at liberty to transfer to the Church of the husband at the celebration of or during the marriage; when the marriage has ended, she can freely return to the original Church sui iuris.”
Endogamy is the most visible reason why the Knanaya are an eparchy within the Syro-Malabar Church, and will probably never attain the autonomy from it they request… because in so doing it would force an end to the enforcement of endogamy of the Knanaya. Being left as a portion of the SMCC means that being removed from the rolls of the Knanaya doesn’t change ascription.
Also, in modernizing societies, endogamy results in shrinking populations and cultural extinction.
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Thomas48
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Exception and personal jurisdiction is given to Kottayam Archdiocese, those canons do not apply. Most Knananites including myself have no problem being under the Syro Malabar Church we would just like our customs to be respected,that is all we are asking.
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Aramis
Guest
Demeaning customs have no place.
And those canons definitely apply to the Knananites… the only reason they don’t end endogamy is the status of being a suffragan of the major archbishop rather than a separate eparchial church sui iuris… which is something desired by many of the online members of the Knanaya culture.
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AveChriste11
Guest
I agree with you that your Church should be allowed to observe said customs if they have been taking place for such an extended amount of time. You have already said that those who choose to not practice endogamy, are still considered Catholic but under another Diocese so I don’t see the problem.
I’ve noticed the thought of “giving up my identity” is something that is feared greatly by a lot of Eastern and Oriental Christians. This very fear is still something that divides the Roman Catholic, and Orthodox churches to this very day.
I don’t personally understand the customs of the Knanaya, but it is not my place to say that you should or shouldn’t do something. I think everyone should give respect to cultures and traditions that are far older than their own.
For example, Eastern Catholics back in Europe are allowed to be married and then there was a ruling from the See of Rome that American Eastern Catholic priests must be celibate, in order not to offend the faithful among the Latin Rite. I’m not sure if that decision is still binding, the celibacy of Eastern Catholic priests – but I have never understood why such a decision would be made after they had been married for so long, following the custom of the Eastern Orthodox churches which they came from.
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DL82
Guest
I don’t want to derail this thread, but does Knanaya endogamy mean that they also do not/cannot evangelise or bring new members into their church? The idea of a Christian diocese that is closed to converts seems like an anomaly, but then I really know nothing of the history of this group.
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malphono
Guest
I could be wrong about this but I think that at least some Knanaya do engage in evangelization. If my idea of how it works is correct, any converts would, however, be received into the Syro-Malabar Church (or – and this would seem to be far less likely but, I suppose still possible – into the Syro-Malankara Church) but not into the Archdiocese of Kottayam unless the convert is considered to be ethnically Knanaya. Of course, one has to keep in mind that the vast majority of converts in India, (at least outside of Kerala), would be received into the Latin Church, irrespective of the Church affiliation of the evangelizer.
Note to our Malayali members: please correct me if my understanding of this is incorrect.
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Thomas48
Guest
I don’t know how else to tell you this Aramis but Kottayam Archdiocese is given personal jurisdiction and exemption, those two canons do not apply to the Knanaya Archdiocese.
Precisely, like other Eastern Catholics us Knananites just want to preserve our identity and our customs, that is all we are asking for.
Malphono is right in his reply, Kottayam Archdiocese evangelizes but those persons are sent to another diocese since they cannot by canons of the Syro Malabar Church become a member of Kottayam Archdiocese.
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Aramis
Guest
Racism is sinful, according to the Catholic Church, Thomas.
Endogamy is nothing less than institutionalized racism.
Endogamy is nothing less than institutionalized racism.
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LordVoldemort
Guest
Endogamy is the practice of marrying within a specific ethnic group, class, or social group, rejecting others on such basis as being unsuitable for marriage or other close personal relationships.
Endogamy is common in many cultures and ethnic groups. Several ethnic religious groups are traditionally more endogamous, although sometimes with the added dimension of requiring marital religious conversion. This permits an exogamous marriage, as the convert, by accepting the partner’s religion, becomes accepted within the endogamous rules. Certain groups, such as Orthodox Jews, have practiced endogamy as an inherent part of their religious beliefs and traditions. In the past Roman Catholics traditionally practiced religious endogamy as well.
Endogamy is common in many cultures and ethnic groups. Several ethnic religious groups are traditionally more endogamous, although sometimes with the added dimension of requiring marital religious conversion. This permits an exogamous marriage, as the convert, by accepting the partner’s religion, becomes accepted within the endogamous rules. Certain groups, such as Orthodox Jews, have practiced endogamy as an inherent part of their religious beliefs and traditions. In the past Roman Catholics traditionally practiced religious endogamy as well.
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malphono
Guest
Copy and paste from wikipedia? 
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