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Felixir
Guest
Just as an interesting aside:
This is precisely what the SSPX are worried about, and why Archbishop Lefebvre ultimately pulled out of the prospective agreement with the Church - that allowances would be made and guaranteed and then withdrawn.
Itâs also why the Church shouldnât enter into agreements with government over exemptions etc. We saw it with abortion, and itâll happen again with same-sex âmarriageâ.
I feel very sorry for the OP and his people, but this does seem to be complicated by geography somewhat.
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RPRPsych
Guest
I have to agree with this.
But - and itâs a small âbutâ, though one which needs to be said - there are degrees of sinfulness. The OP feels that the practice is meant to protect a culture that, though alien to most of us, represents one of the currents of the Catholic faith. This is far less sinful than what happens routinely in India itself, where many Catholics arrange marriages on the basis of Hindu castes and horoscopes, and even arrange weddings on âauspicious daysâ according to Hindu tradition. (For example, some of my own family members were married on a Friday, because Fridays are âgood daysâ in local Hindu tradition.)
Setting this aside, I personally do not like endogamy, and I think faith, not race, should determine whom you marry and how your children are raised. St. Paul said it 2,000 years ago, and we need to catch up with him.
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Thomas48
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This is actually breaking news and very shocking at that but the St.Thomas Syro Malabar Diocese of Chicago maybe soon appointed a Knanaya Auxiliary Bishop. This may be a win for the Knanaya Catholics but I donât think the Syro Malabar members of the diocese will accept thisâŚ
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Thomas48
Guest
It seems that things have already been put into motion. Every Knanaya Church in the U.S along with KCCNA (Knanaya Catholic Congress of North America) has created a resolution that clearly states that we reject and will not adhere to this decree.
Here are some quotes from several resolutions. All of them though began with the line-
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âWe as Knanaya Catholics strongly and unanimously reject, the recent directive from Bishop Mar. Jacob Angadiath regarding the membership within Knanaya parishes established in the St. Thomas Syro-Malabar Diocese of Chicago.â**
Knanaya Catholic Congress of North America (KCCNA)
âWe totally disagree with the decision to allow membership to a non Knanaya Family in Knanaya Churches. By accepting to marry a non knanaya person he/she is accepting to move out of our community. It is their voluntary choice knowing well that they will lose their privillages of Membership. Again this is not a decision to be taken by the bishop Angadiath but by the knanaya members.â
Knanaya Catholic Congress of Central Florida (KCCCF)
âWe were promised endogamous parish and we demand the same. All the Knanaya families present at the meeting will withdraw all and any financial support towards the Sacred Heart Knanaya Catholic Church until the bishop of St. Thomas Syro Malabar Diocese of Chicago declares the above church as a strictly endogamous Parish.â
Knanaya Catholic Association of Arizona (KCAA)
âExecutive Committee of the Knanaya Catholic Association of Arizona disagrees and unanimously rejects the recent directive from Bishop Mar Jacob Angadiath regarding the membership criteria within the Knanaya Parishes. This is an attempt to destroy the community which is in existence for more than 17 centuries.â
Knanaya Catholic Society of Detroit-Windsor (KCSDW)
âWe strongly disagree with the Bishopâs decision to allow membership to non Knanaya family members in Knanaya Churches which will be detrimental to maintain our separate culture and identity which has been safe guarded for centuries by our forefathers.â
Knanaya Catholic Congress of Southern California (KCCSC)
âEndogamy is the cornerstone of Knanaya ancestry. Therefore Knanaya Catholic Congress of Southern California Executive Committee, on behalf of the Knanaya Catholic Congress of Southern California, totally and unanimously rejects the membership criteria that Mar Jacob Angadiath wants to impose upon the Knanaya Community of North America.â
Knanaya Catholic Association At Large (KCAAL)
âWe believe enough is enough, we shouldnât be confused Knanayites who are uncertain about our church system in North America. Therefore, we strongly support KCCNA in their progression to safe guard the existence of Knanaya Community and its environment in North America.â
Knanaya Catholic Soceity of Sant Antonio (KCSSA)
âWe totally disagree with the Bishopâs decision to allow membership to non Knanaya family members in Knanaya Churches, to safe guard our interest in preserving our identity and tradition, with zero tolerance of our endogamous nature, which has been safe guarded for centuries by our forefathers.â
Knanaya Catholic Association of South Florida (KCASF)
âKnanaya Catholic Association of South Florida strongly support the KCCNA executive committee decision to reject the directives of the diocesan and Knanaya region authorities and not to cooperate with them until finding a resolution acceptable to the
Knanaya community on the membership of Knanaya parishes.â
The other twelve churches have similar resolutions.
Here are some quotes from several resolutions. All of them though began with the line-
**
âWe as Knanaya Catholics strongly and unanimously reject, the recent directive from Bishop Mar. Jacob Angadiath regarding the membership within Knanaya parishes established in the St. Thomas Syro-Malabar Diocese of Chicago.â**
Knanaya Catholic Congress of North America (KCCNA)
âWe totally disagree with the decision to allow membership to a non Knanaya Family in Knanaya Churches. By accepting to marry a non knanaya person he/she is accepting to move out of our community. It is their voluntary choice knowing well that they will lose their privillages of Membership. Again this is not a decision to be taken by the bishop Angadiath but by the knanaya members.â
Knanaya Catholic Congress of Central Florida (KCCCF)
âWe were promised endogamous parish and we demand the same. All the Knanaya families present at the meeting will withdraw all and any financial support towards the Sacred Heart Knanaya Catholic Church until the bishop of St. Thomas Syro Malabar Diocese of Chicago declares the above church as a strictly endogamous Parish.â
Knanaya Catholic Association of Arizona (KCAA)
âExecutive Committee of the Knanaya Catholic Association of Arizona disagrees and unanimously rejects the recent directive from Bishop Mar Jacob Angadiath regarding the membership criteria within the Knanaya Parishes. This is an attempt to destroy the community which is in existence for more than 17 centuries.â
Knanaya Catholic Society of Detroit-Windsor (KCSDW)
âWe strongly disagree with the Bishopâs decision to allow membership to non Knanaya family members in Knanaya Churches which will be detrimental to maintain our separate culture and identity which has been safe guarded for centuries by our forefathers.â
Knanaya Catholic Congress of Southern California (KCCSC)
âEndogamy is the cornerstone of Knanaya ancestry. Therefore Knanaya Catholic Congress of Southern California Executive Committee, on behalf of the Knanaya Catholic Congress of Southern California, totally and unanimously rejects the membership criteria that Mar Jacob Angadiath wants to impose upon the Knanaya Community of North America.â
Knanaya Catholic Association At Large (KCAAL)
âWe believe enough is enough, we shouldnât be confused Knanayites who are uncertain about our church system in North America. Therefore, we strongly support KCCNA in their progression to safe guard the existence of Knanaya Community and its environment in North America.â
Knanaya Catholic Soceity of Sant Antonio (KCSSA)
âWe totally disagree with the Bishopâs decision to allow membership to non Knanaya family members in Knanaya Churches, to safe guard our interest in preserving our identity and tradition, with zero tolerance of our endogamous nature, which has been safe guarded for centuries by our forefathers.â
Knanaya Catholic Association of South Florida (KCASF)
âKnanaya Catholic Association of South Florida strongly support the KCCNA executive committee decision to reject the directives of the diocesan and Knanaya region authorities and not to cooperate with them until finding a resolution acceptable to the
Knanaya community on the membership of Knanaya parishes.â
The other twelve churches have similar resolutions.
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LilyM
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Well, youâve got a ways to go before you match Martin Luther, who had 95 such âresolutionsâ, which he called âThesesâ. The central theme of yours are the same as his though - ânon serviamâ (âI will not serveâ), which is the Devilâs favourite refrain.
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RPRPsych
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God is no respecter of persons. St. Peter acknowledged it, St. Paul codified it, and for any group to call themselves âCatholicsâ and still go against this is a grave fault.
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MorEphrem
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I just have a hypothetical. Since these Knanaya parishes are endogenous, I assume it does not permit the entrance of non-Knanaya peoples. What if it meant the difference between the salvation of someoneâs soul; by permitting them to enter and become a church member perhaps theyâd adopt the values - knowing this, would you feel just to stick to custom? (of course, this being truly hypothetical because I donât believe judgment is something that can be broken down into a formula by man).
Also, Jesus said to make disciples out of every nation. Are the Knanaya somehow self-exempt because they declare themselves so?
Also, Jesus said to make disciples out of every nation. Are the Knanaya somehow self-exempt because they declare themselves so?
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Thomas48
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Wow I had no idea it was schismatic to want to protect ones identity and tradition. Us Knananites do not wish to cause schism. We only wish to safe guard and preserve our communities customs.
All are permitted to take part in the Holy Qurbana at Knanaya Churches, they may come every weekend if they please but they will never be granted membership. To be a member of a Knanaya Church you must be born of both Knanaya parents,**The Holy See accepts this. ** The Knanaya Diocese in Kerala evangelizes but those people do not become members of our diocese, they are sent to a nearby Syro Malabar diocese or Latin Diocese.
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Elizium23
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You do not wish it, but that is the direction you are headed. It is one thing for the laity to grumble among themselves about a bishopâs decree. It is another thing for these organizations to release public statements of defiance such as those you quote. This is absolutely the wrong way to go about a legitimate dispute about the liceity of a bishopâs decree. The principle of subsidiarity should be observed, and proper channels used, in private as much as possible. Your sui iuris Church has a hierarchy; your bishop is obedient to someone above him, and ultimately the Pope. You can appeal to Rome since you are Catholic.
As you say, the Holy Father supports you, so why not turn his ear to your plight? Why this public airing of grievances before he has even been informed or had a chance to act? All these organizations publishing defiant statements are asking for excommunication. Are priests following suit with this? Is this a movement of only the laity? Are priests speaking out from the pulpit? Have they advised what action to take? It seems to me that the priests and other clergy, with a promise/vow of obedience to the bishop, would be the first ones to exercise caution and themselves know the proper channels to use for mediating such a dispute.
This is clearly a grave dispute. I mean no offense to your culture or your faith as a Catholic. I just urge that you observe obedience inasmuch as it is possible, and charity and respect for clergy, particularly to successors of the Apostles. I speak not to you as an individual, but to the groups you cite in your previous message. These groups will be better received by the Holy Father if they are seen to advocate for obedience and charity.
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Vico
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georgewithfaith wrote this in 2010:
âTo be a member of a Knanaya Catholic Church you have to be a full Knanaya. This means your parents must both be Knanaya. A non-Knananite can attend Mass but cannot become a member of the Parish.â
So it seems that it is like a personal parish or personal ordinariate similar to the Anglican Catholic of the Latin Church sui iuris, but for Knanaya faithful ascribed to the Latin, Syro-Malabar, or Syro-Malankara churches sui iuris.
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Thomas48
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Elizium23, Yes things may be heated between the St.Thomas Diocese and the Knanaya Parishes but things will be sorted out. The only reason this issue has become this extreme is become for 26 years Bishop Angadiath(Heâs just doing his job) has kept pushing this decree on the Knanaya Parishes but because of our zealotry it is obvious from the quotes that none will adhere. The Knanaya Parishes will never be in schism with the diocese, us and Syro Malabar Catholics are one people under one shared diocese.
Yet to my surprise it seems that things are already being patched up. Through Gods grace the Syro Malabar Synod because of said events, will be appointing an auxiliary bishop to the St.Thomas Syro Malabar Diocese, and auxiliary Knanaya Catholic Bishop
. Hopefully with the help of our new bishop the Knanaya parishes will have a better say and our communities customs will be safeguarded. One of the priests from the U.S Knanaya parishes will be chosen for this position. So far it is said two priests are being thought of for appointment, Rev. Fr. Thomas Animoottil and Rev. Fr.Mathew Manakkatt.
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daffyjoe
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Mr.Thomas,
I guess you should revert yourself in calling yourself SYRO MALABAR CATHOLIC since calling anybody a knanaya is considered rude in northern kerala. There was a time(there are still) when knanayas begged Syro-Malabar Catholics to marry. After some of this convered tribes migrated to USA, their low caste genes came to work with their mind.There is no documentation when their endogamy started, and nor His Highness pope PIUS Xth created a parish with endogamy apart their claims. If they had endogamy for 1700 years then they may had extinguished because of the limited gene pool and their newer generation will be full of mentally disabled people(Now are they acting like that???
). And not finally their genetic results shows a 100% local population.
regards
jo:thumbsup:
I guess you should revert yourself in calling yourself SYRO MALABAR CATHOLIC since calling anybody a knanaya is considered rude in northern kerala. There was a time(there are still) when knanayas begged Syro-Malabar Catholics to marry. After some of this convered tribes migrated to USA, their low caste genes came to work with their mind.There is no documentation when their endogamy started, and nor His Highness pope PIUS Xth created a parish with endogamy apart their claims. If they had endogamy for 1700 years then they may had extinguished because of the limited gene pool and their newer generation will be full of mentally disabled people(Now are they acting like that???
). And not finally their genetic results shows a 100% local population.regards
jo:thumbsup:
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Thomas48
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Thank you for your words Mr.Joe, I read a previous thread where you pestered a Knanaya user and only had rude comments to make about the community. So I would prefer if you didnât post in my threads. After this comment I wonât be replying to any of your posts,Mr.Thomas,
I guess you should revert yourself in calling yourself SYRO MALABAR CATHOLIC since calling anybody a knanaya is considered rude in northern kerala. There was a time(there are still) when knanayas begged Syro-Malabar Catholics to marry. After some of this convered tribes migrated to USA, their low caste genes came to work with their mind.There is no documentation when their endogamy started, and nor His Highness pope PIUS Xth created a parish with endogamy apart their claims. If they had endogamy for 1700 years then they may had extinguished because of the limited gene pool and their newer generation will be full of mentally disabled people(Now are they acting like that???
regards
jo:thumbsup:
Thank you
-Thomas
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devoutchristian
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Racism and schism are sinful.
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Thomas48
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The definition of the term racism-
âPrejudice or discrimination directed against someone of a different race based on such a beliefâ. Please give me an example where Knanayas have discriminated against any other community or culture. Like I have posted many times, though we practice endogamy **every other christian on this earth may take part in our Holy Qurbana, and attend our churches in so far as every week if they please but they will not be granted membership because they do not follow the same traditions and customs as us. **
The St.Thomas Syro Malabar Diocese of Chicago belongs to both us Knanayas and Syro Malabar Catholics. We would not go into schism against our own diocese, the quotes in my earlier post are just petitions for our bishop to hear our voice. All we ask is that our traditions and customs are respected and maintained, as does every other community.
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devoutchristian
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Thomas48
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And please explain to me how the Knanaya Church marrying within itself is discriminatory against other communities.
**Also those who have been following this thread, please excuse my post about the Syro Malabar Synod choosing a Knanaya bishop, that seems to only have been a rumor.
**Also those who have been following this thread, please excuse my post about the Syro Malabar Synod choosing a Knanaya bishop, that seems to only have been a rumor.
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LilyM
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You are discriminating against people of EVERY non-Knanaya race and culture!
You are saying that even if we were to look, speak, write, think, believe and act exactly like a Knanaya in every possible way, and adopt every one of your cherished customs, we STILL would be unworthy to marry you or be a member of your parish.
Why? Why should it matter who my mother and father were?
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Thomas48
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Ah and here is the underlying problem, all people who have not met Knanayas think the quote written above is our ideology. Please everyone who may read this thread,please understand The Knanaya Christians DO NOT discriminate against other Christians, we are for our traditions and customs, and an important custom being endogamy. Trust me there is not a single Knanaya who thinks we are above other Christans or other Christians are unworthy to celebrate in our churches. This is not the ideology of the Knanaya Church, we are just zealots for our faith and traditions, nothing more.
In all honesty do any of you think the Catholic Church would allow a diocese to grow and continue on racist ideals? And also please remember endogamy is a choice, no one is forcing this upon anyone. Once the individual is eligible for marriage he/she makes a personal decision whether to marry Knanaya or not to and if he chooses not to, there is no problem and no one is stopping him/her to do so. I myself have plenty of cousins and even siblings who married Non-Knanaya, even though they married out of the community I see them no differently, they are still my family and the lot of them still come to Knanaya Church though there membership is with the parish of their Non-Knanaya spouse.
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