Should this be permitted? Your opinions please

[g13715]

I am not sure, exactly, what the basis of 2nd Vatican council 4th decree was but that seems to indicate that the ancient traditions can be protected under Catholic rules. It states the following:

Decree on the Catholic Eastern Churches (Orientalium Ecclesiarum) encouraged Eastern Catholics to remain faithful to their ancient traditions, reassured them that their distinctive privileges would be respected, and urged closer ties with the separated Eastern churches, with a view to fostering Christian unity.

From reading what Thomas48 says, it seems to me that the case is not really for preventing people (or inciting as you put it) from marrying outside. Rather it is to preserve the traditions from more liberal practices. Just like, in the US, the church is always trying to protect the faith and teachings from the liberal (anything goes) attitude.

I would like people’s opinion on whether the 4th decree can be used in addition to the precedence from Saint Pius the Xth decree.

Once again, I am taking out the endogamy part of this to make it more simpler. Hope, that will help Thomas48.

Thanks.

 

[theistgal]

If the answer is that one cannot protect this culture then we are not addressing the concern brought out by Thomas48. I think, it is worth it to explore this beyond that.

Is it the Church’s business to be protecting cultures? I thought Christianity was supposed to be countercultural (i.e., “you are in this world but not of it”). That doesn’t just mean counter-Western European or American culture, it means ALL human cultures.

 

[g13715]

That is what i thought too except it was the intention of the 4th decree from 2nd Vatican council.

Seeing what has been going on in the Catholic church, i am sure it is not always only the IDEALs that forms the basis of Vatican decisons. Different cultures have different traditions to worship the same GOD. And we must be sensitive to those with the overall goal in mind. Else, we will be looked upon as aggressors just like the crusades.

 

[SyroMalankara]

What culture is there that is vastly different from the other Syro-Malabars-Syro-Malankaras /St. Thomas Christians? What is it that a cultural association within the church or even an extension outside the church can’t preserve? There are already subgroups within parishes for a certain goal - such as the Knights of Columbus, Women’s Groups, Opus Dei, etc. Isn’t there already a Knanaya Catholic Association which is only for Knanaya people? If so, why can’t they worship with the rest of the Malabar or Malankara Church?

 

[g13715]

Well, i am not sure, it may have been covered earlier. What culture differences are there between syro malabar and syro malankara? In drafting the 4th decree, i am sure they were looking at differences between Latin and eastern.

To help out Thomas48, i am suggesting to use the 4th decree and the decree from st. Pius the xth.

Does anyone know whether any congregation (ex. Oriental) can overrule a Papal ruling especially the one that explicitly states that only a Pope or an earlier document is allowed to overrule it?

 

[Thomas48]

I have two questions for you. I don’t want to seem judgemental, as I strongly support you desire to preserve your cultural traditions, but I am curious and would like your honest answers.

1. I am Protistant. If I were to convert to Catholicism, I would need to learn a new set of tradition and join a new faith community. What is stopping me from learning and joining yours rather than the Latin Church’s, or one of the other Eastern Catholic Church’s?
2. What is stopping a part Knanaya child from learning your traditions from their Knanaya parent and extended family?

That is what I don’t understand, and you haven’t offered any explanation as to how the one thing (having non-endogamous members of your parish) interferes with the other (your freedom to practice endogamy).

If I as a Croatian believed I should only ever marry other Croatians, having members of my parish who married non-Croatians doesn’t interfere with my right to believe that all as far as I can see.
]

Dear friends it all comes back to the Knanaya Communities faith in their lineage. If you are not of the same lineage you cannot be considered a Knanaya.

In order to be considered Knanaya, one thing is being apart of the culture but another thing is following the family linage of Knai Thoma and the 72 families who sailed to the Malabar Coast in 345 A.D, that is why it is impossible to make someone Knanaya.

Hi Thomas48:
I think, bringing endogamy into this discussion is a problem. If you were to strictly go by the original Papa bull and work with the bishops to either extend or create a similar Vicariate in US, will solve the issue.

If one justifies the creation of a new diocese just to protect the tradition with endogamy being a intricate part of it, causes problems because many people interpret endogamy as a bad tradition and thus the whole request is bad. This, then, turns it into a discussion on the validity of endogamy. You will never be able to convince others on that subject.

So, my recommendation is to stay with the decree only. If pushed, further, then the argument should be that you have a need to protect traditions that is 1700 years old and it is consistent with the 4th decree of 2nd Vatican Council. And leave it at that. No mention of endogamy, membership, etc.

From what I understand, your need to protect your tradition requires a diocese and church specifically for your people because that is how you have protected your tradition thus far. And this is because, traditionally, church is where everyone got together, socialized, and found suitable matches for marriage. Having the membership restricted, it guaranteed that only your people showed up to these churches and thus no mix up. Even today, it sounds like, church is what uniting your community and thus this is the ideal vehicle to protect the traditions. Another option that some may suggest is to continue the tradition within your family (in your social gatherings besides church) and do not get the church involved in it. But, this may be tough because yours is a church oriented community.

The question to others is:
Besides using the original Papal bull, what other way is there to protect a culture/community which is strongly linked to the church? Please leave the validity of endogamy aside. If the answer is that one cannot protect this culture then we are not addressing the concern brought out by Thomas48. I think, it is worth it to explore this beyond that.

g13751, the papal bull states that Kottayam Diocese will be erected in respect to the traditions of the Knanaya people. One of the main traditions of the Knanaya people is endogamy. The Catholic Church was not unaware of this when Pope Pius erected Kottayam Diocese. Mar Mathew Makil (first bishop of the Knanayas) clearly stated the customs of the Knanaya people directly to the Pope. Even so if the Catholic Church was by some chance unaware of the endogamous practices, they were made aware again by Mar Kuriakose Kunnassery (fourth bishop of Kottayam).

During the reign of Mar Kuriakose there become incidents when Knanayas married out of the community. Mar Kuriakose was unsure what to do about these Ex-Knanayas, so he reported to Rome for a solution. Together with Rome, Mar Kuriakose devised the membership transfer concept, which meant all Knananites who marry Non-Knananites will loose membership to Kottayam Diocese and be transferred to the nearby Syro Malabar Diocese or the diocese of their Non-Knanaya spouse. So I am sure Rome clearly understands the endogamous practices of Kottayam Diocese.

 

[Thomas48]

I am not sure, exactly, what the basis of 2nd Vatican council 4th decree was but that seems to indicate that the ancient traditions can be protected under Catholic rules. It states the following:

Decree on the Catholic Eastern Churches (Orientalium Ecclesiarum) encouraged Eastern Catholics to remain faithful to their ancient traditions, reassured them that their distinctive privileges would be respected, and urged closer ties with the separated Eastern churches, with a view to fostering Christian unity.

From reading what Thomas48 says, it seems to me that the case is not really for preventing people (or inciting as you put it) from marrying outside. Rather it is to preserve the traditions from more liberal practices. Just like, in the US, the church is always trying to protect the faith and teachings from the liberal (anything goes) attitude.

I would like people’s opinion on whether the 4th decree can be used in addition to the precedence from Saint Pius the Xth decree.

Once again, I am taking out the endogamy part of this to make it more simpler. Hope, that will help Thomas48.

Thanks.

gl1375, There are special canons in the Syro Malabar church called Exemption and Personal Jurisdiction designed specifically for Kottayam Diocese, which allows the practice of strict endogamy. Endogamy is in fact a way of securing our culture but also an ancient religious custom. I know you are trying to seperate Knanaya and endogamy into two different topics but there can be no Knanaya Catholic Church without endogamy. This phrase was mentioned numerous time to Mar Jacob Angadiath after he restated the decree of the Oriental Congregation.

The real issue is not that us Knanayas require our own diocese or even an extension of Kottayam Diocese here in the U.S, all we want is for the diocese to allow our 20 parishes to be respectful of true Knanaya Traditions and not this pseudo Knanaya parish structure that we have currently.

What culture is there that is vastly different from the other Syro-Malabars-Syro-Malankaras /St. Thomas Christians? What is it that a cultural association within the church or even an extension outside the church can’t preserve? There are already subgroups within parishes for a certain goal - such as the Knights of Columbus, Women’s Groups, Opus Dei, etc. Isn’t there already a Knanaya Catholic Association which is only for Knanaya people? If so, why can’t they worship with the rest of the Malabar or Malankara Church?

SyroMalankara, please look back at page six, I presented a list of numerous traditions that distinguishes Knanayas from other Christians. Group such as the Knights of Columbus have not been around for 1700 years. They are Christian organizations who come together for prayer/religious activities/etc. The Knanayas have KCCNA (our national council) and many other local groups but the difference between us and the groups such as the Knights of Columbus is that for centuries we have practiced our traditions within the Church. That is why many people note the Knanaya Community as the Knanaya Catholic Church not just the Knanaya Catholic Organization/etc.

 

[Thomas48]

Also can someone answer this question for me? Why is it that the Knanaya Kottayam Archdiocese is not allowed suffragan diocese’ when all other archdiocese’ of the Syro Malabar Church are?

 

[LilyM]

Dear friends it all comes back to the Knanaya Communities faith in their lineage. If you are not of the same lineage you cannot be considered a Knanaya.

But this goes further - you are talking about banning membership for people who ARE of the same lineage - who are Knanaya - but who marry people who aren’t. Yet adopted children, who are not of the same lineage, are allowed. The way I see it, if a child can be adopted into Knanaya culture then so can an adult.

 

[BrethrenBoy]

Dear friends it all comes back to the Knanaya Communities faith in their lineage. If you are not of the same lineage you cannot be considered a Knanaya.

But what about part Knanaya children or adult Knanayas who marry outside their ethnicity? They have the Knanaya lineage. The adults grew up on your culture, and the kids can be taught it by the Knanaya side if their family. I see you mentioned that Jew believe themselves be be descended from Abraham. Judaism allows adult converts, if they prove to be sincere in their desire to convert, and learn all the Jewish laws and customs.

 

[Zekariya]

But what about part Knanaya children or adult Knanayas who marry outside their ethnicity? They have the Knanaya lineage. The adults grew up on your culture, and the kids can be taught it by the Knanaya side if their family. I see you mentioned that Jew believe themselves be be descended from Abraham. Judaism allows adult converts, if they prove to be sincere in their desire to convert, and learn all the Jewish laws and customs.

Jewish is an ethnicity and a religion combined together. Knanaya is an ethnicity. Intermarriage would make one’s children no longer full-blooded Knanaya. The Knanayites are protecting a bloodline.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Except this hasn’t been proven genetically.

Jewish blood can be proven and one can also convert to Judaism.

How can one convert to Knanaya? and why does DNA show there is no distinction between them and other Syro-Malabar/Malankara Catholics or Orthodox. If anything, the DNA shows less Jewish/Middle Eastern DNA, according to the earlier posted research.

 

[LilyM]

Jewish is an ethnicity and a religion combined together. Knanaya is an ethnicity. Intermarriage would make one’s children no longer full-blooded Knanaya. The Knanayites are protecting a bloodline.

What bloodline? They have neither genealogical nor DNA records to verify this so called bloodline - and they let adopted children join, which pollutes the bloodline just as much as intermarriage.

 

[Zekariya]

What bloodline? They have neither genealogical nor DNA records to verify this so called bloodline - and they let adopted children join, which pollutes the bloodline just as much as intermarriage.

They believe that they have a bloodline to preserve whether you believe they do or not. They had permission of a previous pope to practice endogamy and they are trying to keep this practice of theirs.

 

[Thomas48]

But this goes further - you are talking about banning membership for people who ARE of the same lineage - who are Knanaya - but who marry people who aren’t. Yet adopted children, who are not of the same lineage, are allowed. The way I see it, if a child can be adopted into Knanaya culture then so can an adult.

What bloodline? They have neither genealogical nor DNA records to verify this so called bloodline - and they let adopted children join, which pollutes the bloodline just as much as intermarriage.

But what about part Knanaya children or adult Knanayas who marry outside their ethnicity? They have the Knanaya lineage. The adults grew up on your culture, and the kids can be taught it by the Knanaya side if their family. I see you mentioned that Jew believe themselves be be descended from Abraham. Judaism allows adult converts, if they prove to be sincere in their desire to convert, and learn all the Jewish laws and customs.

Except this hasn’t been proven genetically.

Jewish blood can be proven and one can also convert to Judaism.

How can one convert to Knanaya? and why does DNA show there is no distinction between them and other Syro-Malabar/Malankara Catholics or Orthodox. If anything, the DNA shows less Jewish/Middle Eastern DNA, according to the earlier posted research.

That adopted child is allowed membership to Knanaya Parishes because of the 1986 Re-Script, if it were up to the community, according to traditional customs the child would not be given membership.

About bloodline, like I posted earlier most Jews believe that they are for a fact the descendants of the 12 tribes of Israel, if you do a DNA test on all the Jews I’m sure you will find that a good percentage of them are not. But the Jews because of their high faith believe that they are. In that same sense Knanayas have faith in their bloodline. Also SyroMalankara, that DNA test was done on few Knanaya families, in no way does it pertain to the entire community.

Jewish is an ethnicity and a religion combined together. Knanaya is an ethnicity. Intermarriage would make one’s children no longer full-blooded Knanaya. The Knanayites are protecting a bloodline.

They believe that they have a bloodline to preserve whether you believe they do or not. They had permission of a previous pope to practice endogamy and they are trying to keep this practice of theirs.

Thank you for that post Zakariya, this is a good way to sum it up.

 

[LilyM]

They believe that they have a bloodline to preserve whether you believe they do or not. They had permission of a previous pope to practice endogamy and they are trying to keep this practice of theirs.

But science appears to show that they don’t - their DNA is no different from that of the people around them, which indicates that there is in fact no special bloodline. Certainly if they had been inbreeding for 1600-some years there would be such an indication in their DNA.

 

[LilyM]

That adopted child is allowed membership to Knanaya Parishes because of the 1986 Re-Script, if it were up to the community, according to traditional customs the child would not be given membership.

About bloodline, like I posted earlier most Jews believe that they are for a fact the descendants of the 12 tribes of Israel, if you do a DNA test on all the Jews I’m sure you will find that a good percentage of them are not. But the Jews because of their high faith believe that they are. In that same sense Knanayas have faith in their bloodline. Also SyroMalankara, that DNA test was done on few Knanaya families, in no way does it pertain to the entire community.

Most Jews believe no such thing. Most rabbis are fine with allowing non-Jewish people from outside their communities to convert and become full members if they so choose. Most Jews do not exclude the genetically non-Jewish spouses or children of members of their community from themselves being members should they wish, as long as they adhere to the tenets of the Jewish faith…

 

[Thomas48]

But science appears to show that they don’t - their DNA is no different from that of the people around them, which indicates that there is in fact no special bloodline. Certainly if they had been inbreeding for 1600-some years there would be such an indication in their DNA.

LilyM, im not quite sure where your pulling your source from. Yes for a fact there was a DNA test done on Knanaya Christians but from what I know of the test it was done on less than 20 Knanaya persons, which surely does not account for the 200,000 Knananites world wide. Also the test was never publicized so we have no idea what these tests state.

Most Jews believe no such thing. Most rabbis are fine with allowing non-Jewish people from outside their communities to convert and become full members if they so choose. Most Jews do not exclude the genetically non-Jewish spouses or children of members of their community from themselves being members should they wish, as long as they adhere to the tenets of the Jewish faith…

Abrahamic lineage is one of the highest aspects of the Jewish Tradition. Most of the Non converted Jews do follow this faith and ideology, that at some time during history they were in fact descended from one of the original 12 tribes.

 

[Thomas48]

The lineage of our Middle Eastern ancestors has been passed down for centuries. I can show you two pure examples from patrons of my church. Note the light skin and ginger hair of the children in the picture on the left and the same on the man in the picture on the right. These traits are found in Knanayas globally, another trait is freckles which other Indians do not generally posses.

View attachment 16586 View attachment 16587

 

[InAllThingsLove]

Thomas48, I am confused as to why the genetics are of such importance, since you have called it a matter of being able to maintain custom and culture. I see the difference between and adopted child and an adult convert personally, but I am confused as to why an adopted child would be treated as an outsider in any faith community, especially if they were raised Knanaya from infancy. I know you’ve said in practice they wouldn’t due to the 1986 rewrite, but that initially that would’ve been the intention. Is there any detailed explanation behind this?

I am genuinely curious as to the reasoning, because to me personally that seems very unloving, and my opinion of that actually extends to the children of Knanayas in exogamous marriages. I understand that endogamy has been a tradition, but “because we’ve always done that” is rather lacking in explanation value to an outsider. The differences in how the liturgy and certain Sacraments are carried out are clear to me, so I understand the idea of the separate church and worship, especially since both are legitimate, but the other idea eludes me. Has the Kottayam Diocese done any work into Knanaya apologetics?