Should this be permitted? Your opinions please

[Thomas48]

Thomas48, I am confused as to why the genetics are of such importance, since you have called it a matter of being able to maintain custom and culture. I see the difference between and adopted child and an adult convert personally, but I am confused as to why an adopted child would be treated as an outsider in any faith community, especially if they were raised Knanaya from infancy. I know you’ve said in practice they wouldn’t due to the 1986 rewrite, but that initially that would’ve been the intention. Is there any detailed explanation behind this?

I am genuinely curious as to the reasoning, because to me personally that seems very unloving, and my opinion of that actually extends to the children of Knanayas in exogamous marriages. I understand that endogamy has been a tradition, but “because we’ve always done that” is rather lacking in explanation value to an outsider. The differences in how the liturgy and certain Sacraments are carried out are clear to me, so I understand the idea of the separate church and worship, especially since both are legitimate, but the other idea eludes me. Has the Kottayam Diocese done any work into Knanaya apologetics?

Ah I can understand the points you make but accepting an adopted child would be extremely unfair towards non-Knanayas. If we accepted the adopted child, that’s almost like saying anyone can attain membership to Knanaya Churches but the fact of the matter is that you cannot make anyone Knanaya. I see the point you make that the child was raised Knanaya from birth but so were Knanayas who married exogamous. You see where it becomes unfair? These Knanayas who married outside of the community were born members of the community but since they chose to marry outside of the community, they are no longer Knanaya. This adopted child who isn’t even born Knanaya attaining membership is unethical.

Yes Kottayam Diocese has plenty of hierarchy and laymen that are apolgetics. The bishops are even apolgetics and would gladly give you an hour lesson on the reason for endogamy and why Knanayas practice it. Of course I am not as fully understood on the topic as they are but to give you a brief definition, Knanayas follow the custom of endogamy because when our forefathers reached the shores of Kerala they wanted to preserve their Early-Christian customs and traditions. So for centuries their descendants have tried their best to keep safe the communities identity. It is also stated that our ancestors practiced the custom of endogamy even when they were in Mesopotamia. They were strong believers in the Prophets Ezra and Nehemiah and you can still see the veneration of these prophets in Knanaya Parishes today, many of our churches are even name after Ezra and Nehemiah.

You must also understand that the Knanaya community especially in the past was tiny compared to the rest of St.Thomas Christians. A good ratio example would be, if there were 15,000 St.Thomas Christians there would only be 500 Knanayas. Imagine how quickly our identity would be lost if we did not have the custom of endogamy. Our customs would surely be integrated into the greater community and forgotten with time. Even today the Knanayas number lowly compared to the rest of the of the St.Thomas Christians, the ratio would be around 10,100,000 St.Thomas Christians to only 200,000 Knanayas. In the U.S under the St.Thomas Syro Malabar Diocese there are around 100,000 Syro Malabar Catholics and only 10,000 Knanayas.

 

[Aramis]

since the bull mentions the silencing of dissenters as part of its goals, it sure looks like Kottayam was erected as an economia…

 

[BrethrenBoy]

Ah I can understand the points you make but accepting an adopted child would be extremely unfair towards non-Knanayas. If we accepted the adopted child, that’s almost like saying anyone can attain membership to Knanaya Churches but the fact of the matter is that you cannot make anyone Knanaya. I see the point you make that the child was raised Knanaya from birth but so were Knanayas who married exogamous. You see where it becomes unfair? These Knanayas who married outside of the community were born members of the community but since they chose to marry outside of the community, they are no longer Knanaya. This adopted child who isn’t even born Knanaya attaining membership is unethical.

So, is what your saying that in order to be a member of a Knanaya church you must be full blooded Knanaya, regardless if you follow Knanaya culture or not?

 

[Aramis]

So, is what your saying that in order to be a member of a Knanaya church you must be full blooded Knanaya, regardless if you follow Knanaya culture or not?

Thomas has repeatedly implied that if one is exogamous, one has ceased to be Knanaya culturally, as he seems to define endogamy as one of the essential traits to be Knanaya. It is circular reasoning. By that standard, the only way to “become” Knanaya is by deception.

 

[Thomas48]

So, is what your saying that in order to be a member of a Knanaya church you must be full blooded Knanaya, regardless if you follow Knanaya culture or not?

Thomas has repeatedly implied that if one is exogamous, one has ceased to be Knanaya culturally, as he seems to define endogamy as one of the essential traits to be Knanaya. It is circular reasoning. By that standard, the only way to “become” Knanaya is by deception.

Yes you must be full blooded Knanaya, being born of both Knanaya parents. It is not really possible to become Knanaya through deception because the community is such a close nit one.

 

[BrethrenBoy]

Yes you must be full blooded Knanaya, being born of both Knanaya parents. It is not really possible to become Knanaya through deception because the community is such a close nit one.

Hmmm This is a complicated issue. My first reaction is that it is wrong to deny a person membership to a church or parish based on their ethnicity. To me, that is discrimination. You gave an explanation earlier about why non-Knanaya children adopted by a Knanaya family should not be allowed membership to a Knanaya parish. Have you tried looking at the situation from the child’s point of view? I can’t imagine being told I could be a member of the church I grew up in because I wasn’t my parents “real” child. I doubt that you explanation would give them any comfort. I get the feelings from your posts that you think that a Knanaya who marries outside of their ethnicity no longer follows any part Knanaya culture. I find that hard to believe. I can easily see a fixation on having pure Knanaya blood leading to a superiority complex on the part of some of the Knanaya.

On the other hand, you are trying to keep your culture alive, something I strongly support. I know some of mine was lost, as my last name translates to “son of a servant of Saint Brigid”, buty family has been part of a denomination that does not recognize Saints for over one hundred years. I am not a part of your community, and do not know your history, so I can not tell you what you should or should not do.

 

[Zekariya]

I blame “political correctness” for many of our modern day problems.

 

[BrethrenBoy]

How much is a Knanaya that marries a Non-Knanaya allowed to participate in the Knanaya community? How much are their children allowed? How are their children viewed by the community?

 

[Knanaya_Justice]

On Christmas mass vicars at Knanaya Churches explained to their parishes that under the St.Thomas Syro Malabar Diocese of Chicago, Bishop Mar Jacob Angadiath has decreed that endogamy may no longer be practiced in Knanaya Churches. All Knanaya persons who marry non-Knanaya as well as their non-Knanaya spouses may retain and or be permitted membership into Knanaya Churches.

Knanayas have been practicing endogamy for 1700 years, it is a basic fundamental of our community. This new decree only affects those Knanaya Parishes under the Syro Malabar Diocese of Chicago. The Kottayam Knanaya Diocese in India still strictly practices endogamy. I just do not understand how the St.Thomas diocese has the right to take away this basic Knanaya custom. From the Papal proclamation of Pope St.Pius X under the Catholic Church members of Kottayam Diocese may follow endogamy along with other Knanaya Customs. Does this mean when members of the Kottayam Diocese go else where these rights should be surrendered?

Under the St.Thomas diocese, Knanaya Churches were allowed to be built and if they are true Knanaya Churches endogamy will be practiced. But now with this new decree how can they even be called Knanaya Churches? Do you think this fair? I would like your opinions on this topic.

Hello

Sathi was a tradition that was fallowed by Hindhus and it was stopped so just because you were practising discrimination in kottayam for years it doesn’t mean it should be implemented in in USA

 

[Knanaya_Justice]

On Christmas mass vicars at Knanaya Churches explained to their parishes that under the St.Thomas Syro Malabar Diocese of Chicago, Bishop Mar Jacob Angadiath has decreed that endogamy may no longer be practiced in Knanaya Churches. All Knanaya persons who marry non-Knanaya as well as their non-Knanaya spouses may retain and or be permitted membership into Knanaya Churches.

Knanayas have been practicing endogamy for 1700 years, it is a basic fundamental of our community. This new decree only affects those Knanaya Parishes under the Syro Malabar Diocese of Chicago. The Kottayam Knanaya Diocese in India still strictly practices endogamy. I just do not understand how the St.Thomas diocese has the right to take away this basic Knanaya custom. From the Papal proclamation of Pope St.Pius X under the Catholic Church members of Kottayam Diocese may follow endogamy along with other Knanaya Customs. Does this mean when members of the Kottayam Diocese go else where these rights should be surrendered?

Under the St.Thomas diocese, Knanaya Churches were allowed to be built and if they are true Knanaya Churches endogamy will be practiced. But now with this new decree how can they even be called Knanaya Churches? Do you think this fair? I would like your opinions on this topic.

Please help to stop the discrimination that all knanaya Catholic Churches are trying to implement in USA as in kottayam. ( Endogamy the Devil ). All the knanaya church members are indirectly supporting cast system and racism by excluding their own brothers and sons in the name of blood purity. We are asking you as the citizens of United States to put a stop to this discrimination in knanaya Catholic Churches of United States by writing letters to the right people and getting the media involved to point out this discrimination in the name Jesus. Please look up all the knanaya church locations in USA and write letters along with march infront of churches to end discrimination based on Blood Purity ( Endogamy ). Like a bad tradition Sathi of hindhu religion, endogamy should be stopped in United States. Thanks

 

[Thomas48]

How much is a Knanaya that marries a Non-Knanaya allowed to participate in the Knanaya community? How much are their children allowed? How are their children viewed by the community?

Dear Brethren, they can do all they please. The other Knanayas wont look at them in strife/etc, they just won’t have membership to the parishes that is the only difference. Usually though, after a Knanaya marries out of the community he regularly attends the parishes of his Non-Knanaya spouse.

Hello

Sathi was a tradition that was fallowed by Hindhus and it was stopped so just because you were practising discrimination in kottayam for years it doesn’t mean it should be implemented in in USA

Please help to stop the discrimination that all knanaya Catholic Churches are trying to implement in USA as in kottayam. ( Endogamy the Devil ). All the knanaya church members are indirectly supporting cast system and racism by excluding their own brothers and sons in the name of blood purity. We are asking you as the citizens of United States to put a stop to this discrimination in knanaya Catholic Churches of United States by writing letters to the right people and getting the media involved to point out this discrimination in the name Jesus. Please look up all the knanaya church locations in USA and write letters along with march infront of churches to end discrimination based on Blood Purity ( Endogamy ). Like a bad tradition Sathi of hindhu religion, endogamy should be stopped in United States. Thanks

This is quite interesting, you made an account just to bash Knanaya Christians? Of course this is just your opinion on the Knanaya Christians and a quite one sighted view. You seemed to have already stated your view that all Knanayas are evil so I can’t and won’t try to change that. All I can say is the see of Kottayam for the Knanaya Catholics and the see of Chingavanam for the Knanaya Orthodox will always exist. They follow wholey the canons of their mother churches, Catholic and Syriac Orthodox and have since their existence evangelized and spread the word of Christ.

Kottayam Diocese has set up 6 colleges, 141 schools, 6 hospitals, 1 retreat center, and 2 charitable societies. These institutions are for all people and have for years helped and carried for the citizens of Kerala. But I’m sure you are going to propose these are of the devil as well?

Our mother churches set up special Knanaya regions for us in the United States to expand and grow and there is no stopping that. I hope you understand that Knanayas are backed by the Catholic Church and the Syro Malabar Church.

 

[LilyM]

Dear Brethren, they can do all they please. The other Knanayas wont look at them in strife/etc, they just won’t have membership to the parishes that is the only difference. Usually though, after a Knanaya marries out of the community he regularly attends the parishes of his Non-Knanaya spouse.

Obviously non-members can NOT do all things. There is clearly a very real difference between members and non-members. Otherwise firstly no-one would bother becoming a member of the parish, and secondly no-one would care whether the non-endogamous were allowed to be members or not.

At least be honest enough to admit it.

 

[Thomas48]

LilyM, they are allowed to do all they please. Besides attaining membership these people can do whatever they want. They may take part in Knanaya events, Holy Qurbana, etc.

I am starting to get the feel that you think us Knanayas evilly stare at someone Non-Knanaya that enters our parish and that we ask them to leave or something along the lines of that. Dear Lily please understand we are not some sort of KKK type group. Knanayas are a friendly community who have done much in the word of our Lord. Do not let the practice of endogamy muddle your view on a community you have never experienced.

 

[Thomas48]

Do not let the practice of endogamy muddle your view on a community you have never experienced.

I ask this of everyone who may read this thread.

 

[LilyM]

LilyM, they are allowed to do all they please. Besides attaining membership these people can do whatever they want. They may take part in Knanaya events, Holy Qurbana, etc.

I am starting to get the feel that you think us Knanayas evilly stare at someone Non-Knanaya that enters our parish and that we ask them to leave or something along the lines of that. Dear Lily please under we are not some sort of KKK type group. Knanayas are a friendly community who have done much in the word of our Lord. Do not let the practice of endogamy muddle your view on a community you have never experienced.

So - if they can do literally any and everything within all spheres of the parish that you can, and have all the exact same access to all your parish’s liturgies and sacraments that you do, then they are in fact full members and deserve to be formally enrolled as such, and you are being dishonest by saying they are not.

If, as I suspect is the case, you DO deny the sacraments to non-endogamous people then that is a serious thing and you are being dishonest in saying that they can do anything you can.

Please understand that my problem has nothing whatsover to do with endogamy. I repeat - endogamy is not the issue for me.

If you and other members of your community want endogamy, fine. If you want to only ever wear red clothing, fine. If you want to only ever enter your church with your left foot and never your right foot, fine.

But I see no point or purpose in making endogamy, or any other rule that you want to live by binding on all members of your parish. Such practices have absolutely nothing to do with how you worship God or practice your faith. If they did, you would forbid the non-endogamous from worshipping with you.

You may have been given these concessions in the past, as Jesus said, out of the hardness of your hearts, but that does not mean it is a good or prudent thing to continue to impose them upon all who would seek membership of your parish.

 

[Filii_Dei]

The way I see it, this debate seems to revolve around several premises.

1. 
   *]Endogamy is a crucial aspect of Knanaya identity and culture.
   *]Knanaya need to preserve the identity of their small community against the larger Syro-Malabar congregations.
   *]All cultures within the Universal Church should have the right to retain their cultural practices and customs where approved by the Church.
   *]The Pope has implicitly approved the practices and culture of the Knanaya by setting up separate jurisdictions for the Knanaya.
   *]A parish is a powerful means of maintaining the cultural practices of a community and orienting the community around parish life.
   *]The Catholic Church is universal to all Catholics,
   *]Every Catholic should be permitted the opportunity to be a member in another parish of their own rite.
   *]No single ethnicity has a special right to their own hierarchy and jurisdiction within the Catholic Church by virtue of their ethnic identity.
   *]Knanaya parishes are closely associated with non-Knanaya parishes anyway, so there will always be an alternative for non-Knanaya nearby.
   
   The problem is, if you look at each of these principles individually, one does not find a problem with any single one, but when taken together as in the current situation, we find ourselves to be in a bit of a fix.
   
   And this is why I considered this to be a difficult question for me to answer as an outsider.

 

[Knanaya_Justice]

How much is a Knanaya that marries a Non-Knanaya allowed to participate in the Knanaya community? How much are their children allowed? How are their children viewed by the community?

From my experience as a born knanaya male that got married out to a non knanaya, you will fell like a second class citizen if you go to knanaya churches. They feel like you are on their mercy to participate in church activities. They will try to avoid you at any chance. All members of the family are affected same way by this discrimination based on what so called blood purity even though DNA evidence shows there is no blood purity in this community, they just want to believe that they are the chosen ones so they can feel special and be superior to others. Just because a wrong decision was made to practice discrimination in Kottayam, Kerala, India churches, it does not make it right to bring it to the United States where we believe in equality

 

[Knanaya_Justice]

Dear Brethren, they can do all they please. The other Knanayas wont look at them in strife/etc, they just won’t have membership to the parishes that is the only difference. Usually though, after a Knanaya marries out of the community he regularly attends the parishes of his Non-Knanaya spouse.

This is quite interesting, you made an account just to bash Knanaya Christians? Of course this is just your opinion on the Knanaya Christians and a quite one sighted view. You seemed to have already stated your view that all Knanayas are evil so I can’t and won’t try to change that. All I can say is the see of Kottayam for the Knanaya Catholics and the see of Chingavanam for the Knanaya Orthodox will always exist. They follow wholey the canons of their mother churches, Catholic and Syriac Orthodox and have since their existence evangelized and spread the word of Christ.

Kottayam Diocese has set up 6 colleges, 141 schools, 6 hospitals, 1 retreat center, and 2 charitable societies. These institutions are for all people and have for years helped and carried for the citizens of Kerala. But I’m sure you are going to propose these are of the devil as well?

Our mother churches set up special Knanaya regions for us in the United States to expand and grow and there is no stopping that. I hope you understand that Knanayas are backed by the Catholic Church and the Syro Malabar Church.

Can you please explain how Bible and discrimination play hand to hand in Knanaya Catholic Churches in USA?

 

[Knanaya_Justice]

What bloodline? They have neither genealogical nor DNA records to verify this so called bloodline - and they let adopted children join, which pollutes the bloodline just as much as intermarriage.

If the DNA analysis done by DNA Tribes, Inc. has any validity, the claim of absolute purity and endogamy has no validity. In addition, the history and ideology of Knanaya ancestors, our look and color, and private beliefs of Knanaites do not support absolute endogamy and purity. Our traditions and practices are simply based on prejudices, and unfounded fears and beliefs. It is time for the community to embrace Christ again and go back to the great traditions of Knanaya ancestors, a tradition based on love, sacrifice, service and missionary spirit.

 

[Thomas48]

So - if they can do literally any and everything within all spheres of the parish that you can, and have all the exact same access to all your parish’s liturgies and sacraments that you do, then they are in fact full members and deserve to be formally enrolled as such, and you are being dishonest by saying they are not.

If, as I suspect is the case, you DO deny the sacraments to non-endogamous people then that is a serious thing and you are being dishonest in saying that they can do anything you can.

Please understand that my problem has nothing whatsover to do with endogamy. I repeat - endogamy is not the issue for me.

If you and other members of your community want endogamy, fine. If you want to only ever wear red clothing, fine. If you want to only ever enter your church with your left foot and never your right foot, fine.

But I see no point or purpose in making endogamy, or any other rule that you want to live by binding on all members of your parish. Such practices have absolutely nothing to do with how you worship God or practice your faith. If they did, you would forbid the non-endogamous from worshipping with you.

You may have been given these concessions in the past, as Jesus said, out of the hardness of your hearts, but that does not mean it is a good or prudent thing to continue to impose them upon all who would seek membership of your parish.

I can understand your point but I do not understand how I was being dishonest? I posted numerous times in this thread how the Non-Knananites are treated in Knanaya churches. But to reiterate, they will receive no membership, will receive sacraments (Holy Eucharist, Annointing of the Sick, Reconciliation) and for the others they need to be members of the Knanaya Parish. I thought the limited sacraments was mentioned earlier? If they would like to receive the other sacraments they must visit the Syro Malabar Church in which they are a member of. They can take part in all Knanaya events, no one is pompous and will tell them not to come just because you are not Knanaya.

The way I see it, this debate seems to revolve around several premises.

1. 
   *]Endogamy is a crucial aspect of Knanaya identity and culture.
   *]Knanaya need to preserve the identity of their small community against the larger Syro-Malabar congregations.
   *]All cultures within the Universal Church should have the right to retain their cultural practices and customs where approved by the Church.
   *]The Pope has implicitly approved the practices and culture of the Knanaya by setting up separate jurisdictions for the Knanaya.
   *]A parish is a powerful means of maintaining the cultural practices of a community and orienting the community around parish life.
   *]The Catholic Church is universal to all Catholics,
   *]Every Catholic should be permitted the opportunity to be a member in another parish of their own rite.
   *]No single ethnicity has a special right to their own hierarchy and jurisdiction within the Catholic Church by virtue of their ethnic identity.
   *]Knanaya parishes are closely associated with non-Knanaya parishes anyway, so there will always be an alternative for non-Knanaya nearby.
   
   The problem is, if you look at each of these principles individually, one does not find a problem with any single one, but when taken together as in the current situation, we find ourselves to be in a bit of a fix.
   
   And this is why I considered this to be a difficult question for me to answer as an outsider.

1. 
   That’s a good way to summarize this entire thread.