Should this be permitted? Your opinions please

[Thomas48]

From my experience as a born knanaya male that got married out to a non knanaya, you will fell like a second class citizen if you go to knanaya churches. They feel like you are on their mercy to participate in church activities. They will try to avoid you at any chance. All members of the family are affected same way by this discrimination based on what so called blood purity even though DNA evidence shows there is no blood purity in this community, they just want to believe that they are the chosen ones so they can feel special and be superior to others. Just because a wrong decision was made to practice discrimination in Kottayam, Kerala, India churches, it does not make it right to bring it to the United States where we believe in equality

Can you please explain how Bible and discrimination play hand to hand in Knanaya Catholic Churches in USA?

If the DNA analysis done by DNA Tribes, Inc. has any validity, the claim of absolute purity and endogamy has no validity. In addition, the history and ideology of Knanaya ancestors, our look and color, and private beliefs of Knanaites do not support absolute endogamy and purity. Our traditions and practices are simply based on prejudices, and unfounded fears and beliefs. It is time for the community to embrace Christ again and go back to the great traditions of Knanaya ancestors, a tradition based on love, sacrifice, service and missionary spirit.

I see no discrimination and it seems the Syro Malabar,Syriac Orthodox Church,Syro Malankara Church,and Catholic Church see no discrimination. So I think we are good on that topic. If there was such discrimination these institutions surely would not be created. It has been a century since the creation of Kottayam Diocese/ Chingavanam Diocese, I’m sure if what we were doing was discriminatory our mother churches surely wouldn’t allow it but it seems even after a century they have no problem in the matter. Even so, if they some how regretted creating Knanaya diocese’, they would not have allowed the creation of Knanaya based parishes in the U.S in the 21st century. Of course the ideology that Knanayas have a superiority complex is your opinion but I was born and raised Knanaya and never have I noted this. I feel community members rarely even speak of other churches, that they can so called “feel superior over”.

 

[LilyM]

I can understand your point but I do not understand how I was being dishonest? I posted numerous times in this thread how the Non-Knananites are treated in Knanaya churches. But to reiterate, they will receive no membership, will receive sacraments (Holy Eucharist, Annointing of the Sick, Reconciliation) and for the others they need to be members of the Knanaya Parish. I thought the limited sacraments was mentioned earlier? If they would like to receive the other sacraments they must visit the Syro Malabar Church in which they are a member of. They can take part in all Knanaya events, no one is pompous and will tell them not to come just because you are not Knanaya.

Thank you for clarifying - I apologise if it has been mentioned earlier, I didn’t see it. Now someone who can neither be baptised, chrismated nor married in your parish is obviously very far from being able to ‘do what they please’ as I think you said earlier, and it is dishonest to say that they can when half the sacraments are not available to them in your parish! This is no little thing, and no unimportant restriction on your non-members.

Yes, they can go elsewhere, but I know I would be heartbroken if the parish I grew up in and where I went every week refused to marry me or baptise my children simply because I married someone of a different race. And I know of no other parish, Latin or Eastern Catholic, that would do such a, in my opinion, cruel and unnecessary thing.

 

[Thomas48]

Thank you for clarifying - I apologise if it has been mentioned earlier, I didn’t see it. Now someone who can neither be baptised, chrismated nor married in your parish is obviously very far from being able to ‘do what they please’ as I think you said earlier, and it is dishonest to say that they can when half the sacraments are not available to them in your parish! This is no little thing, and no unimportant restriction on your non-members.

Yes, they can go elsewhere, but I know I would be heartbroken if the parish I grew up in and where I went every week refused to marry me or baptise my children simply because I married someone of a different race. And I know of no other parish, Latin or Eastern Catholic, that would do such a, in my opinion, cruel and unnecessary thing.

Ah I am sorry, I only wrote “sacraments” earlier because I thought you had seen it previously mentioned. Yes the whole membership criterion is a very interesting matter, one thing I probably should have mentioned earlier is there is also a rule that if ones Non-Knanaya spouse dies, you and only you (not the children you may have had with the Non-Knanaya spouse), may reclaim your membership as a Knanaya.There have been many cases like that in the Kottayam Diocese, one case being my own aunt. She is Knanaya Catholic but she married my uncle who was a Jacobite Orthodox man. My uncle had sadly died and she was Knanaya again but her children (my cousins) are still considered Jacobite Orthodox. It makes sense, because that was the church they are baptized members of. My aunt on the other hand, was baptized as a Knanaya Catholic.

 

[Filii_Dei]

Thomas48, I thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut in this thread so far. There are a couple of scenarios that I wish to ask. They seem rather academic, I am aware, but it might help give a better idea of the socio-cultural definitions of the Knanaya community.

Let’s say that a full-blooded Knanaya were to be leave the faith and declared themselves an atheist, and subsequently incidentally be married to another Knanaya who also left the faith. If their children were to independently decide to return to the faith of their ancestors, would these children be accepted back into the Knanaya Church?

Also, if a Knanaya Catholic were to be married to a Knanaya Syriac Orthodox, would the Catholic spouse still be a member of their parish? Would the Syriac Orthodox spouse be accepted into the Knanaya Catholic parish if they were to convert? Could their children also be considered Knanaya?

If you have any personal experience or knowledge of such situations, it would be good too. I apologise if these questions seem rather tortuous for the common person. It is alright to not have an answer.

 

[Thomas48]

Thomas48, I thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut in this thread so far. There are a couple of scenarios that I wish to ask. They seem rather academic, I am aware, but it might help give a better idea of the socio-cultural definitions of the Knanaya community.

Let’s say that a full-blooded Knanaya were to be leave the faith and declared themselves an atheist, and subsequently incidentally be married to another Knanaya who also left the faith. If their children were to independently decide to return to the faith of their ancestors, would these children be accepted back into the Knanaya Church?

Also, if a Knanaya Catholic were to be married to a Knanaya Syriac Orthodox, would the Catholic spouse still be a member of their parish? Would the Syriac Orthodox spouse be accepted into the Knanaya Catholic parish if they were to convert? Could their children also be considered Knanaya?

If you have any personal experience or knowledge of such situations, it would be good too. I apologise if these questions seem rather tortuous for the common person. It is alright to not have an answer.

Yes the children would still be members of the Knanaya Community. But since their parents are atheist, in order for them to restore their Knanaya Catholic faith they would have to re-register with Kottayam Archdiocese.

I actually have a lot of personal experience with your second question . My grandmother herself was a Knanaya Jacobite (Syriac Orthodox) but when she married my grandfather a Knanaya Catholic she converted to Catholicism. Their children are considered fully Knanaya because none of their parents (my grandparents) married out of the community, one parent only just switched ritual churches or in the Knanaya case, “ritual diocese”. Since Kerala is a patriarchal society usually the bride converts to the ritual church of the groom.

Knanayas though members of two churches (Catholic and Syriac Orthodox) are one community, that is why you’ll hear people saying “Knanaya Christians” and not just Knanaya Catholic or Knanaya Jacobite. They can visit each others parishes without problem. My aunt is a Knanaya Jacobite converted to Catholicism, her child (one of my cousins) lives in an area without a Knanaya Catholic Parish but does have a Knanaya Jacobite Parish. My cousin was born and raised Knanaya Catholic but instead of going to the local Latin Catholic Parish she chooses to go to the Knanaya Jacobite Parish because of the lack of a Knanaya Catholic Parish. This is just another example of zealotry among the community.

 

[Zekariya]

So, if I have read this correctly, Knanaya Catholics and Knanaya Orthodox (of the Syriac Orthodox) permit intercommunion? That is interesting (in a good and cool way).

 

[malphono]

So, if I have read this correctly, Knanaya Catholics and Knanaya Orthodox (of the Syriac Orthodox) permit intercommunion? That is interesting (in a good and cool way).

If that’s true, it’s similar to the situation in the Middle East.

 

[Thomas48]

So, if I have read this correctly, Knanaya Catholics and Knanaya Orthodox (of the Syriac Orthodox) permit intercommunion? That is interesting (in a good and cool way).

If that’s true, it’s similar to the situation in the Middle East.

Yes and I believe that the Knanaya Jacobite who converted to Knanaya Catholicism or vice versa still retains their membership to their diocese of birth. The reasoning for that is because the Knanaya Diocese both Jacobite/Catholic are autonomous and allow their converted members continual membership because they are still a member of the Knanaya community even though they switched ritual churches. The Knanaya Diocese’ are just that diocese for the Knanaya Christian Community. To sum it up, I believe it is possible for a Knanaya to be in both Orthodox and Catholic Communion.

 

[Knanaya_Justice]

I did not post this thread to argue on the ethics of endogamy. I posted this to show you how invalid and unlawful this decree is. Do you not see how it is criminal for the St.Thomas diocese to impose this? It is against papal decree and the right of Knananites. Would you be okay if your community practiced a certain custom for hundreds of years and a bishop with a sign of his pen, stated that your practice is null and void?

Just because you practices it for so many years, it does not make it a right practice. All the wrong practices must come to an end one day. Learn to adopt or be extinct like Dinosaurs. Please keep Endogamy out of Catholic churches.

 

[Thomas48]

The Catholic Church has many different rites and customs that have been practiced for centuries. Just because times change doesn’t mean we should throw away customs which we have withheld for ages.

 

[Aramis]

The Catholic Church has many different rites and customs that have been practiced for centuries. Just because times change doesn’t mean we should throw away customs which we have withheld for ages.

When they are inherently at odds with the Gospels and Epistles, yes, we SHOULD.

 

[DaveBj]

Just because you practices it for so many years, it does not make it a right practice. All the wrong practices must come to an end one day. Learn to adopt or be extinct like Dinosaurs. Please keep Endogamy out of Catholic churches.

The Catholic Church has many different rites and customs that have been practiced for centuries. Just because times change doesn’t mean we should throw away customs which we have withheld for ages.

When they are inherently at odds with the Gospels and Epistles, yes, we SHOULD.

I have been lurking in this thread from the beginning, except for my one post, which really wasn’t on the original topic. Having read through this whole thing, I find myself agreeing with KJ and Aramis. Endogamy, besides being deleterious to the endogamous gene pool, is a social custom that has long since outlived its usefulness. It’s time for the Knanaya to grow up and become like Jesus. Could you imagine Him shutting someone out because they married outside the family?

 

[Thomas48]

When they are inherently at odds with the Gospels and Epistles, yes, we SHOULD.

I have been lurking in this thread from the beginning, except for my one post, which really wasn’t on the original topic. Having read through this whole thing, I find myself agreeing with KJ and Aramis. Endogamy, besides being deleterious to the endogamous gene pool, is a social custom that has long since outlived its usefulness. It’s time for the Knanaya to grow up and become like Jesus. Could you imagine Him shutting someone out because they married outside the family?

It is a community practice from the early centuries. No Archbishop, Major Archbishop, nor the Pope himself has the right to tell the community that they may not continue their practices. Hierarchy should not meddle in community affairs that which they have no connection to and it is true to say that they have no connection to these issues at all.

The Catholic Church noticed a group of Catholics practicing endogamy in 1911 and they allowed them to retain their customs and even granted them a bishop and diocese. I should mention that another reason they granted Knanaya Catholics their own diocese is because the Knanaya Syriac Orthodox had been granted one of their own a year earlier. For fear of loosing the Knanaya Catholics to the Syriac Orthodox Church they erected Kottayam Diocese. Now if the Catholic Church was going to turn back on its word, they should have let us turn to the Syriac Orthodox Church in 1911. Since 1910 the Syriac Orthodox Church has allowed the Knanaya Jacobites full observance of their traditions with no alteration at all. They even have their own bishop in the U.S.

Little by little Knanaya Catholics loose what we were once promised. When Kottayam Diocese was elevated to an archdiocese in 2005, the Catholic Church said Kottayam Diocese may have no suffragan diocese. How can this be justified when every other Syro Malabar Archdiocese’ were allowed suffragans? In 1986 the prompt from the Oriental Congregation for Eastern Churches decreed to Knanaya Parishes in the U.S “You may not pracitce endogamy here in the U.S”. Now us Knanaya Catholics fear that soon this will be implemented in Kottayam as well. I can only imagine what more will be lost until the decree of St.Pius X is a complete lie.

**Opinions **

Everyone repeatedly says Knanaya Catholics discriminate against other Syro Malabar Catholics but no it is actually the complete opposite. Why should we open our doors to Syro Malabar Catholics (we technically do) who don’t open their doors to us ? Do any of you know that the Syro Malabar Church denied the Knanaya Vicar General the chance to become auxiliary bishop of the St.Thomas Syro Malabar Diocese when it is supposed to be a diocese for both Knanaya Catholics and Syro Malabar Catholics. Knanaya Catholics have no chance what so ever to gain equal status in the Syro Malabar Church as the other Syro Malabar Catholics. Even simple things, like if you go to the St.Thomas diocese website you’ll see no mention of Knanaya Catholics and the Syro Malabar Church website briefly mentions us in a sentence. Another factor is hierarchical status, the St.Thomas diocese will most likely never see a Knanaya priest as bishop nor will the Syro Malabar Church elect a Knanaya Major Archbishop.So now tell me why should we be fair to those who are unfair to us? Knanayas have supported the growth of the Syro Malabar Church since the start but Kottayam Diocese is degraded always.

 

[DaveBj]

Thomas, you can argue community practices and cultural customs from now til doomsday, but the one piece of evidence you cannot produce is how the custom of endogamy and the enforced exclusion of those who violate that custom make the Knanaya community more like Jesus Christ.

 

[truthquester]

It all sounds a little weird to me, I thought judism was a religion not a race.
To each his own I guess.

 

[Thomas48]

Thomas, you can argue community practices and cultural customs from now til doomsday, but the one piece of evidence you cannot produce is how the custom of endogamy and the enforced exclusion of those who violate that custom make the Knanaya community more like Jesus Christ.

I told you it is a community practice not a divine one, the word community gives it up. The community chose to follow the teachings of elder Jewish Prophets and the church which is the divine body of Christ, chose to allow them to retain said practices.

You can pull that question out on many Catholic practices and find them not to help one become more like Christ. Though you will see that for centuries the Catholic Church has practiced that certain custom.

Can anyone answer the opinions portion on my reply post #252 for me?

 

[amalthomas]

I found the following video very interesting on knanaya catholic church in kerala.
youtube.com/watch?v=9o-yuRvBflw

 

[Thomas48]

I found the following video very interesting on knanaya catholic church in kerala.
youtube.com/watch?v=9o-yuRvBflw

Why do you keep bringing up the Sister Abhaya Case in all Knanaya threads where it seems irrelevant to the topic? What are your intentions?

 

[amalthomas]

Why do you keep bringing up the Sister Abhaya Case in all Knanaya threads where it seems irrelevant to the topic? What are your intentions?

I am very sorry. I won’t do it in from now. I am really really sorry.

 

[theistgal]

I told you it is a community practice not a divine one, the word community gives it up. The community chose to follow the teachings of elder Jewish Prophets and the church which is the divine body of Christ, chose to allow them to retain said practices.

You can pull that question out on many Catholic practices and find them not to help one become more like Christ. Though you will see that for centuries the Catholic Church has practiced that certain custom.

Can anyone answer the opinions portion on my reply post #252 for me?

Sure, I’ll give it a shot. You said:

"So now tell me why should we be fair to those who are unfair to us?

Because that’s the very essence of what Christianity is all about. Did Jesus insist that His followers demand to be treated fairly by those who were unfair to them? Think about it when you’re listening to the Gospels this week.