Should this be permitted? Your opinions please

[Aramis]

Community practices do not belong enshrined in church laws. Especially when explicitly counter to St Paul’s assertion that there is neither Jew nor Greek within the church.

have no issue with the community being bigoted, so long as they keep it completely outside the church. … which the Knanaya have failed to do.

 

[Thomas48]

I am very sorry. I won’t do it in from now. I am really really sorry.

No don’t apologize its fine but if you have any questions on that topic just PM me because it does not have anything to do with the thread.

Sure, I’ll give it a shot. You said:

"So now tell me why should we be fair to those who are unfair to us?

Because that’s the very essence of what Christianity is all about. Did Jesus insist that His followers demand to be treated fairly by those who were unfair to them? Think about it when you’re listening to the Gospels this week.

So we are to allow minority discrimination? Because to sum it up that is bascially what is happening in the Syro Malabar Church.

Community practices do not belong enshrined in church laws. Especially when explicitly counter to St Paul’s assertion that there is neither Jew nor Greek within the church.

have no issue with the community being bigoted, so long as they keep it completely outside the church. … which the Knanaya have failed to do.

I see what you are saying but the main problem is that Knanayas kept this community practice within the Church since the beginning. It was not eventually implicated in the Church throughout the centuries. Endogamy was apart of the Knanaya Christian Church since the start.

 

[tsunami7]

On Christmas mass vicars at Knanaya Churches explained to their parishes that under the St.Thomas Syro Malabar Diocese of Chicago, Bishop Mar Jacob Angadiath has decreed that endogamy may no longer be practiced in Knanaya Churches. All Knanaya persons who marry non-Knanaya as well as their non-Knanaya spouses may retain and or be permitted membership into Knanaya Churches.

Knanayas have been practicing endogamy for 1700 years, it is a basic fundamental of our community. This new decree only affects those Knanaya Parishes under the Syro Malabar Diocese of Chicago. The Kottayam Knanaya Diocese in India still strictly practices endogamy. I just do not understand how the St.Thomas diocese has the right to take away this basic Knanaya custom. From the Papal proclamation of Pope St.Pius X under the Catholic Church members of Kottayam Diocese may follow endogamy along with other Knanaya Customs. Does this mean when members of the Kottayam Diocese go else where these rights should be surrendered?

Under the St.Thomas diocese, Knanaya Churches were allowed to be built and if they are true Knanaya Churches endogamy will be practiced. But now with this new decree how can they even be called Knanaya Churches? Do you think this fair? I would like your opinions on this topic.

The diocese can do whatever they want. endogamy isn’t a religious belief or doctrine, its a custom. customs often change with time (for example, women wearing veils inside church) and are approved by diocese.

 

[Thomas48]

The diocese can do whatever they want. endogamy isn’t a religious belief or doctrine, its a custom. customs often change with time (for example, women wearing veils inside church) and are approved by diocese.

Actually for Knanayas parishes it is a religious doctrine. The papal decree of Pope St.Pius X states that endogamy may be practiced within Knanaya Parishes. The Congregation for Oriental Churches Unlawfully without authority of the pope overruled this doctrine on the topic of endogamy in Knanaya Parishes in the U.S.

It is unlawful because the decree states that only the successors of Pope St.Pius X may remove or make changes to the decree. The Congregation for Oriental Churches was obviously not Pope John Paul II. This decree protects endogamy and Knanaya traditions the diocese nor Bishop Angadiath for a fact have no right to make any changes to the structure of Knanaya Parishes.

 

[malphono]

Actually for Knanayas parishes it is a religious doctrine. The papal decree of Pope St.Pius X states that endogamy may be practiced within Knanaya Parishes. The Congregation for Oriental Churches Unlawfully without authority of the pope overruled this doctrine on the topic of endogamy in Knanaya Parishes in the U.S.

It is unlawful because the decree states that only the successors of Pope St.Pius X may remove or make changes to the decree. The Congregation for Oriental Churches was obviously not Pope John Paul II. This decree protects endogamy and Knanaya traditions the diocese nor Bishop Angadiath for a fact have no right to make any changes to the structure of Knanaya Parishes.

Well … a couple of points:

(1) The fact that the decree was from Pius X does not mean that it is “religious doctrine.” What it does mean is that Pius X allowed the custom to continue.
(2) Now, whether the Oriental Congregation “unlawfully” overruled a Papal decree is debatable. The Oriental Congregation did not upend the decree in respect to Kottayam, which was the point of the decree in the first place, so technically they did not act unlawfully. And I think it’s worth noting that the Oriental Congregation, as do they all, functions with the authority of the Pontiff unless the Pontiff personally demands or countermands a particular action, and I haven’t heard of that having happened in this case.

OTOH, what we do have is a case where the rule (or “law” as it were) is being applied unequally. By that I mean there is now one set of rules for Kottayam and another for the diaspora. While that is not technically unlawful, it seems to me that it is quite unfair. The problem is that there is now a diaspora outside the Archdiocese of Kottayam and indeed outside India. Pius X did not address that because it really wasn’t an issue at the time, and unless or until it is addressed, I don’t see a way out.

It is, of course, possible that Pius X’s decree could be amended or superseded, or even nullified, by a successor, but I tend to think that if the latter happens, whether directly or indirectly through an amendment or a new decree, it will result in a Knanaya exodus. And I think that was the reason for Pius X’s decree in the first place.

 

[Thomas48]

Well … a couple of points:

(1) The fact that the decree was from Pius X does not mean that it is “religious doctrine.” What it does mean is that Pius X allowed the custom to continue.
(2) Now, whether the Oriental Congregation “unlawfully” overruled a Papal decree is debatable. The Oriental Congregation did not upend the decree in respect to Kottayam, which was the point of the decree in the first place, so technically they did not act unlawfully. And I think it’s worth noting that the Oriental Congregation, as do they all, functions with the authority of the Pontiff unless the Pontiff personally demands or countermands a particular action, and I haven’t heard of that having happened in this case.

OTOH, what we do have is a case where the rule (or “law” as it were) is being applied unequally. By that I mean there is now one set of rules for Kottayam and another for the diaspora. While that is not technically unlawful, it seems to me that it is quite unfair. The problem is that there is now a diaspora outside the Archdiocese of Kottayam and indeed outside India. Pius X did not address that because it really wasn’t an issue at the time, and unless or until it is addressed, I don’t see a way out.

It is, of course, possible that Pius X’s decree could be amended or superseded, or even nullified, by a successor, but I tend to think that if the latter happens, whether directly or indirectly through an amendment or a new decree, it will result in a Knanaya exodus. And I think that was the reason for Pius X’s decree in the first place.

Ah I can understand the points you have brought up Malphono but from reviewing the decree it seems to clearly state that a succesor of Pius X may only make revisions/changes etc. That being said I don’t think the Congregation for Oriental Churches can be justified in there actions because no where in the rescript does it state involvement from Pope John Paul II. And yes I pray that it does not come down to that but the Knanayas may happily rejoin there Orthodox counter parts if the Holy See decides to make more changes to the prescriptions.

But another point that must be made is that this is a community practice not one created by the Catholic Church. That being said I do not think hierarchs should meddle with the affairs of a community that they basically have nothing to do with.

 

[Aramis]

Ah I can understand the points you have brought up Malphono but from reviewing the decree it seems to clearly state that a succesor of Pius X may only make revisions/changes etc. That being said I don’t think the Congregation for Oriental Churches can be justified in there actions because no where in the rescript does it state involvement from Pope John Paul II. And yes I pray that it does not come down to that but the Knanayas may happily rejoin there Orthodox counter parts if the Holy See decides to make more changes to the prescriptions.

All bulls are worded that way. Meaningless.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Ah I can understand the points you have brought up Malphono but from reviewing the decree it seems to clearly state that a succesor of Pius X may only make revisions/changes etc. That being said I don’t think the Congregation for Oriental Churches can be justified in there actions because no where in the rescript does it state involvement from Pope John Paul II. And yes I pray that it does not come down to that but the Knanayas may happily rejoin there Orthodox counter parts if the Holy See decides to make more changes to the prescriptions.

But another point that must be made is that this is a community practice not one created by the Catholic Church. That being said I do not think hierarchs should meddle with the affairs of a community that they basically have nothing to do with.

It seems to me that meddling created this problem in the first place. First by the Syriac Patriarch, then copied by Rome. If the communities were left to worship within the larger community and continue whatever they wanted to do communally as a sub-group, this problem wouldn’t exist today.

Apparently, the Anglicans in Africa are having a similar problem with the “allowance” they gave the pagan men married to multiple women. Now this “allowance” is being turned into a “local custom”. Multiple marriage is NEVER allowed within the Christian Sacrament, and neither is exclusion based on DNA or local custom - this toleration seemingly left alone, has now become a “religious doctrine” with no basis in reality.

 

[Thomas48]

All bulls are worded that way. Meaningless.

It seems to me that meddling created this problem in the first place. First by the Syriac Patriarch, then copied by Rome. If the communities were left to worship within the larger community and continue whatever they wanted to do communally as a sub-group, this problem wouldn’t exist today.

Apparently, the Anglicans in Africa are having a similar problem with the “allowance” they gave the pagan men married to multiple women. Now this “allowance” is being turned into a “local custom”. Multiple marriage is NEVER allowed within the Christian Sacrament, and neither is exclusion based on DNA or local custom - this toleration seemingly left alone, has now become a “religious doctrine” with no basis in reality.

I would think my diocese was created for a reason, and not that its just meaningless. Pope Pius X for whatever reason it may be allowed the creation of Kottayam Diocese and throughout the years popes after him were aware of the customs of Kottayam Diocese. If the custom of endogamy was against the Church there surely would have been a decree written to counter Kottayam Diocese a long time ago. But seeing there isn’t we can agree Kottayam Diocese is following all doctrines and canons of the Church.

Please do not compare the practices of Kottayam Diocese to that of pagans. The custom of endogamy was practiced by the Catholic Church in the early years, so I’m sure you can understand that it was allowed in the Catholic Church. The Early Catholic Church saw that it was no longer needed, Knanayas see that it still is, that’s the only difference between us.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Endogamy in the early Church?

Timothy’s mother was a Jew, father a Greek.
Jesus mother Mary was of Levi, father Joseph of Judah

Biological Endogamy or Exogamy in the early Church:
digital.library.strathmore.edu/xmlui/bitstream/handle/123456789/1158/Christianity%20and%20endogamy%20-%20commentary.pdf?sequence=1

The only endogamy I see clear evidence for within the early Church, is ecclesiastical endogamy, e.g. preferences to only marry within the Christian community, did not matter whether of Jewish, Greek, or other cultural/ethnic origin - as long as they converted to Christian.

Also do Knanaya uninterruptedly practice ritual circumcision? If not, there is a huge problem with this theory, since circumcision is REQUIRED for Jews for all time. The local Indian custom was (and is) for boys NOT to be circumcised - this is the common custom of today’s Syrian Christians as well:
sites.google.com/site/josekblogger/bible-study-archives/endogamyandknanayasociety

 

[amalthomas]

I would think my diocese was created for a reason, and not that its just meaningless. Pope Pius X for whatever reason it may be allowed the creation of Kottayam Diocese and throughout the years popes after him were aware of the customs of Kottayam Diocese. If the custom of endogamy was against the Church there surely would have been a decree written to counter Kottayam Diocese a long time ago. But seeing there isn’t we can agree Kottayam Diocese is following all doctrines and canons of the Church.

Please do not compare the practices of Kottayam Diocese to that of pagans. The custom of endogamy was practiced by the Catholic Church in the early years, so I’m sure you can understand that it was allowed in the Catholic Church. The Early Catholic Church saw that it was no longer needed, Knanayas see that it still is, that’s the only difference between us.

Read the following article and give me an opinion,
almayasabdam.blogspot.ie/2011/12/blog-post_482.html

 

[Thomas48]

Endogamy in the early Church?

Timothy’s mother was a Jew, father a Greek.
Jesus mother Mary was of Levi, father Joseph of Judah

Biological Endogamy or Exogamy in the early Church:
digital.library.strathmore.edu/xmlui/bitstream/handle/123456789/1158/Christianity%20and%20endogamy%20-%20commentary.pdf?sequence=1

The only endogamy I see clear evidence for within the early Church, is ecclesiastical endogamy, e.g. preferences to only marry within the Christian community, did not matter whether of Jewish, Greek, or other cultural/ethnic origin - as long as they converted to Christian.

Also do Knanaya uninterruptedly practice ritual circumcision? If not, there is a huge problem with this theory, since circumcision is REQUIRED for Jews for all time. The local Indian custom was (and is) for boys NOT to be circumcised - this is the common custom of today’s Syrian Christians as well:
sites.google.com/site/josekblogger/bible-study-archives/endogamyandknanayasociety

From reading the selection, it seems endogamy was practiced on a less stricter scale in the Early Catholic Church than the Knanaya Community who in fact were not Catholics. From the Knanaya History I have researched and been taught, our ancestors were Early Christians from the Church of the East, who still practiced some Jewish customs. A research diary from shows there were areas of Mesopotamia where Jews/Early Christians practiced pure lineage.These areas are known as Ezra,Uraha,Uz,Seleucia,Kinai, and surrounding cities. These areas are said to be where Knanayas originated from. Upon reaching Kerala it would only make sense that the Knanayas would continue there practice of pure lineage or what we call today endogamy.

Of course it can clearly be seen just by genetics that Knanayas haven’t kept entirely pure lineage but genetics also show a majority of Middle Eastern ancestory in the Knanaya Community. None of us can know for sure what happened throughout history with the Knanaya Community but my guess is that the community tried there best to keep their lineage pure but ended up having some inter marriages. Throughout the 17 centuries of the Knanaya Communities existence in Kerala its very plausible to say that they lost many of their Jewish/Early Christian customs and we can venture that one of those lost customs could be circumcision. We cannot argue that the Knanaya Community, especially in the past was a tiny group compared to the larger St.Thomas Christian group. It was probably exceedingly hard to maintain many of their customs without loss in originality.

 

[SyroMalankara]

From reading the selection, it seems endogamy was practiced on a less stricter scale in the Early Catholic Church than the Knanaya Community who in fact were not Catholics. From the Knanaya History I have researched and been taught, our ancestors were Early Christians from the Church of the East, who still practiced some Jewish customs. A research diary from shows there were areas of Mesopotamia where Jews/Early Christians practiced pure lineage.These areas are known as Ezra,Uraha,Uz,Seleucia,Kinai, and surrounding cities. These areas are said to be where Knanayas originated from. Upon reaching Kerala it would only make sense that the Knanayas would continue there practice of pure lineage or what we call today endogamy.

Of course it can clearly be seen just by genetics that Knanayas haven’t kept entirely pure lineage but genetics also show a majority of Middle Eastern ancestory in the Knanaya Community. None of us can know for sure what happened throughout history with the Knanaya Community but my guess is that the community tried there best to keep their lineage pure but ended up having some inter marriages. Throughout the 17 centuries of the Knanaya Communities existence in Kerala its very plausible to say that they lost many of their Jewish/Early Christian customs and we can venture that one of those lost customs could be circumcision. We cannot argue that the Knanaya Community, especially in the past was a tiny group compared to the larger St.Thomas Christian group. It was probably exceedingly hard to maintain many of their customs without loss in originality.

So why pretend that it has been maintained when a simple DNA test proves that this hadn’t been the case? Were the DNA negative tested individuals subsequently tossed out of the community? If not, doesn’t this action itself negate the theory?

What’s to show that the original community - if there ever was such thing - ever even practiced endogamy as is claimed? I don’t doubt that it’s held in high esteem today, but is that based on a real tradition or holdover from Hindu conversion or (even if one goes with the Middle Eastern theory, which is disproven from DNA) is it a holdover from Mandean culture (which was prominent in the Iraq region) - unfortunately DNA and evidence lean toward the Hindu convert position realistically.

 

[daffyjoe]

From reading the selection, it seems endogamy was practiced on a less stricter scale in the Early Catholic Church than the Knanaya Community who in fact were not Catholics. From the Knanaya History I have researched and been taught, our ancestors were Early Christians from the Church of the East, who still practiced some Jewish customs.

OMG! These statements only stands for southists!!! I guess there are no Syrian Christian in the forum…

A research diary from shows there were areas of Mesopotamia where Jews/Early Christians practiced pure lineage.These areas are known as Ezra,Uraha,Uz,Seleucia,Kinai, and surrounding cities. These areas are said to be where Knanayas originated from. Upon reaching Kerala it would only make sense that the Knanayas would continue there practice of pure lineage or what we call today endogamy.

Of course it can clearly be seen just by genetics that Knanayas haven’t kept entirely pure lineage but genetics also show a majority of Middle Eastern ancestory in the Knanaya Community.

Is this a confession or claiming of supremacy?

None of us can know for sure what happened throughout history with the Knanaya Community but my guess is that the community tried there best to keep their lineage pure but ended up having some inter marriages.

Like Arabian marriage in Malabar area where an arabi/ middle eastern came and does 1 night intercourse with a lady who is residing in a beach and lady bears a child who is claimed as descendant of Arabi as knanaya bin Arabic?

Throughout the 17 centuries of the Knanaya Communities existence in Kerala its very plausible to say that they lost many of their Jewish/Early Christian customs and we can venture that one of those lost customs could be circumcision. We cannot argue that the Knanaya Community, especially in the past was a tiny group compared to the larger St.Thomas Christian group. It was probably exceedingly hard to maintain many of their customs without loss in originality.

Making fake claims may not have full originality of St.Thomas Christians…

 

[Thomas48]

So why pretend that it has been maintained when a simple DNA test proves that this hadn’t been the case? Were the DNA negative tested individuals subsequently tossed out of the community? If not, doesn’t this action itself negate the theory?

What’s to show that the original community - if there ever was such thing - ever even practiced endogamy as is claimed? I don’t doubt that it’s held in high esteem today, but is that based on a real tradition or holdover from Hindu conversion or (even if one goes with the Middle Eastern theory, which is disproven from DNA) is it a holdover from Mandean culture (which was prominent in the Iraq region) - unfortunately DNA and evidence lean toward the Hindu convert position realistically.

Response

The Middle Eastern theory is not dis-proven but proven through DNA testing. This Knanaya DNA test which was taken in 2007 can be concluded as the most justifiable when it comes to Knanaya DNA because it includes the most sponsors of any Knanaya DNA test .I am proud to say that it states Knanaya ancestry is predominantly of Middle Eastern Origin. This DNA test proves the Knanaya Traditional Origins which other St.Thomas Christians have denounced for near a century. It does also state though that their has been some genetic contribution from the local Kerala state population in the Knanaya Community. This probably resulted from exogamous marriages.

Knanaya Ancestry Project PDF
docs.google.com/file/d/0B8wq5Pgr_SaEOWJvdUhGSW1QSEk/edit?pli=1

Quotes From The DNA Test

1. “Results of this preliminary study indicate the Knanaya are genetically affiliated with Middle Eastern populations confirming the traditional historical narrative of migration from the Middle East. Results also indicate that the Knanaya stand out as a genetically unique population among Middle Eastern genetic groups. This might reflect historical endogamy…” (Page 5).
2. “…This could reflect historical endogamy, which would have the effect of fostering priavate genetic characteristics distinguishing Knanaya from source populations in the Middle East” (Page 5).

**My Thoughts **

Yes through DNA testing we see that Knanaya have had some exogamous marriages. In my opinion the Knanaya Community through out the centuries **tried there best ** to maintain the ancient customs of Ezra and Nehemiah (endogamy). In the past the Knanaya Community was a close nit group but they had no way of knowing who was Knanaya and who was not. Perhaps during these ancient times they had allowed others to adopt the customs of the Knanaya Community? My wholesome conclusion is that when the diocese was granted to the Knanaya Community they tried to restrengthen and make stricter the practice of endogamy. Having a diocese of their own most likely gave them a lot of pride and being so different from the other Syro Malabar Diocese’ they most likely wanted to protect there distinguishable identity.

 

[daffyjoe]

@so called southists,
Now the world finally knows the fact that the purity in your blood is just a myth. I wish to invite the attention to another similar project by Syrian Christians but unfortunately this also contains the self called southists/knanaya (one named Raju Makkil).
familytreedna.com/public/syrianchristiansofindia/default.aspx?section=yresults
To identify the Jews, it is almost easy. They might have so called J2 COHEN haplogroup (I am telling this on general knowledge. experts, kindly reply to forum if I am wrong and pardon me).
From the chazhikadan story, They are pure jews (because of endogamy) who are migrated from Uraha/Cana/or some where from Mars (don’t consider this as anything wrong, the places changes from church to church in their parishes.) If so then their haplogroup might contain full of COHEN DNAs. BUT unfortunately None yet. Oh come on Thomas48, please show atleast one J2 COHEN haplogroup in your whole group and I will accept that you are pure jew and you are the descendant or direct emigrant from Levant. Other wise I challenge you to join catholic faith in all sense disregarding all false myths you are going with.

 

[Thomas48]

You asked for a Knanaya with Jewish Ancestry? Well here you go Daffy, don’t go back on your word now okay? I present to you DNA test of Kna3. Remember you promised to accept us as pure Jews if you saw one and here it is.

Knanaya Ancestry Project PDF (Sponsor Kna 3)
docs.google.com/file/d/0B8wq5Pgr_SaEcGVrQ3FUMUlCVXM/edit?pli=1

 

[Thomas48]

@so called southists,
Now the world finally knows the fact that the purity in your blood is just a myth. I wish to invite the attention to another similar project by Syrian Christians but unfortunately this also contains the self called southists/knanaya (one named Raju Makkil).
familytreedna.com/public/syrianchristiansofindia/default.aspx?section=yresults
To identify the Jews, it is almost easy. They might have so called J2 COHEN haplogroup (I am telling this on general knowledge. experts, kindly reply to forum if I am wrong and pardon me).
From the chazhikadan story, They are pure jews (because of endogamy) who are migrated from Uraha/Cana/or some where from Mars (don’t consider this as anything wrong, the places changes from church to church in their parishes.) If so then their haplogroup might contain full of COHEN DNAs. BUT unfortunately None yet. Oh come on Thomas48, please show atleast one J2 COHEN haplogroup in your whole group and I will accept that you are pure jew and you are the descendant or direct emigrant from Levant. Other wise I challenge you to join catholic faith in all sense disregarding all false myths you are going with.

You asked for a Knanaya with Jewish Ancestry? Well here you go Daffy, don’t go back on your word now okay? I present to you DNA test of Kna3. Remember you promised to accept us as pure Jews if you saw one and here it is. This Knanaya sponsor (noted as Kna 3) shows a high match to Jewish Populations.

Knanaya Ancestry Project PDF (Sponsor Kna 3 Jewish Match)
docs.google.com/file/d/0B8wq5Pgr_SaEcGVrQ3FUMUlCVXM/edit?pli=1

Response

The Middle Eastern theory is not dis-proven but proven through DNA testing. This Knanaya DNA test which was taken in 2007 can be concluded as the most justifiable when it comes to Knanaya DNA because it includes the most sponsors of any Knanaya DNA test .I am proud to say that it states Knanaya ancestry is predominantly of Middle Eastern Origin. This DNA test proves the Knanaya Traditional Origins which other St.Thomas Christians have denounced for near a century. It does also state though that their has been some genetic contribution from the local Kerala state population in the Knanaya Community. This probably resulted from exogamous marriages.

Knanaya Ancestry Project PDF
docs.google.com/file/d/0B8wq5Pgr_SaEOWJvdUhGSW1QSEk/edit?pli=1

Quotes From The DNA Test

1. “Results of this preliminary study indicate the Knanaya are genetically affiliated with Middle Eastern populations confirming the traditional historical narrative of migration from the Middle East. Results also indicate that the Knanaya stand out as a genetically unique population among Middle Eastern genetic groups. This might reflect historical endogamy…” (Page 5).

Is my previous post not evidence enough that Knanaya DNA shows ancestry from the Levant or the Middle East? This DNA test proves that Knanayas show predominant ancestry from the Middle East as East Syriac Christians.

 

[daffyjoe]

You asked for a Knanaya with Jewish Ancestry? Well here you go Daffy, don’t go back on your word now okay? I present to you DNA test of Kna3. Remember you promised to accept us as pure Jews if you saw one and here it is.

Are you nuts? I said,”Prove that you have a J2 Cohen haplogroup”, which there is none in your results.whether kna3 has one? He is just on L type which is prevalent among thiyyas and vellalla gowders.

This Knanaya sponsor (noted as Kna 3) shows a high match to Jewish Populations.

Knanaya Ancestry Project PDF (Sponsor Kna 3 Jewish Match)
docs.google.com/file/d/0B8wq…VXM/edit?pli=1
Is my previous post not evidence enough that Knanaya DNA shows ancestry from the Levant or the Middle East? This DNA test proves that Knanayas show predominant ancestry from the Middle East as East Syriac Christians.

Whether you had gone through my suggested link? Dear Thomas48, first study about history and science. dont say blah blah and yell ,”Finally we found DNA evidence, WE ARE 100% JEWISH, but the maternal side is pure dravidian”. Also go through the DNA results of Syrian Christians, it contains J2 Cohen (Jewish), R1a (Brahmin), and last but not least and sadly southist ones, L type (Thiyyas/vellalla gowders). Come on, Yell again, gowder thomman. FYI, some of Syrian christians has more relation with middle east genes from the data, please go through it.

 

[Thomas48]

Are you nuts? I said,”Prove that you have a J2 Cohen haplogroup”, which there is none in your results.whether kna3 has one? He is just on L type which is prevalent among thiyyas and vellalla gowders.

Whether you had gone through my suggested link? Dear Thomas48, first study about history and science. dont say blah blah and yell ,”Finally we found DNA evidence, WE ARE 100% JEWISH, but the maternal side is pure dravidian”. Also go through the DNA results of Syrian Christians, it contains J2 Cohen (Jewish), R1a (Brahmin), and last but not least and sadly southist ones, L type (Thiyyas/vellalla gowders). Come on, Yell again, gowder thomman. FYI, some of Syrian christians has more relation with middle east genes from the data, please go through it.

Kna 3 posses a high match to Isreal, so how can you say he does not posses “J2Cohen”. In the summary of the first DNA report the summary clearly states “this community has a unique genetic grouping because of historical endogamy with minimal exogamous marriages from the local Kerala Community”. It also states " this DNA report has given truth to the historical narrative of Knanayas migrating from the Middle East". Knanaya history clearly states that for one of two reasons these East Syriac Christians left the Middle East, one was to help restore the Church of Malabar or two which was to escape Christian persecution in the Middle East.

I don’t understand where people always get the assumption Knanayas were Jewish. They were just Early Christians who still clung to Jewish practices. Note that not once in this thread I posted Knanayas were Jewish but only that they were Early Christians. Also note that even on the Knanaga History written on the website of Kottatam Archdiocese it claims no where that we were Jews, only that we were Jewish Christians, which means Early Christians that still practiced Jewish Custom.

I understand your stance on Knanayas not being Jewish as the Chazikan theory goes and after viewing the DNA results I can understand your point. But you must agree that by viewing the DNA results, Knanayas were endogamous East Syriac Christians from the Middle East who, I guess we can say tried there best to keep endogamy pure? But initially had few exogamous marriages? The evidence from the DNA and the summary of the Dna Tribes Company supports the historical Knanaya Claim.