Should this be permitted? Your opinions please

[beingchristian]

Dear Brother,
The Christian groups that follow endogamous practices consist of the Mennonites, Mandeans, Knanaya Christians, Assyrian Christians and many Arabic Christian Communities. Note that all these Christian Communities have origins in or are found in the MIddle East and the comprising area. To my understanding these Christians are most likely like Knananites and followed the practices of Jews.

Putting that aside, you cannot call Knanaya Christians “Un-Christian” we may not bring followers into our community but we have been for the greater Christian Community. Knanaya priests and lay people have been evangelizing at great lengths for the Syro Malabar Church for decades. There are Knanaya priests on this sole duty all across India, Africa, and Asia. There are three Knanaya priests who became bishops of Missionary Latin Diocese because of there efforts in evangelization by so noted by the Vatican. These men being Archbishop Abraham Viruthakulangara of Nagapur, Bishop George Palliparambil of Miao, and Bishop James Thoppil of Kohima. So I say to you that you cannot by any level call the people of Kottayam Archdiocese, Un-Christian and those who do not spread the word of Christ because you will only find yourself at fault. We may be prideful and uphold Knanaya Traditions but Christianity and Catholicism is not a matter taken lightly within our Community.

The customs and traditions of Knanaya Christians have been noted to be tied to that of Jews and the Middle East by many scholars who have studied and researched the Knanaya people. The only people who have compared Knanaya traditions to that of Hindus is Knanaya bashing St. Thomas Christians. I do not think the Catholic Church would allow Knananites to build shrines of Knai Thoma or allow the crozier of Mar Mathew Moolakattu to consist of ships if our history were inaccurate.

Knanaya Publications by Scholars

1. “The wedding songs of Cochin Jews and of the Knanite Christians of Kerala”, by Prof. P.M. Jussay, a paper submitted at the 39th session of Indian History congress in Hyderabad , 1978.
2. “Jewish Contributions to Indian Society” Volume 16, No.2, 1982 by Dr. Shalva Weil, Professor at Hebrew University , Jerusalem
3. “ India ’s Jewish Heritage” by Dr. Shalva Weil, Volume 54, No.2, 2002
4. “A History of the Jews of Cochin” by Dr. J.B. Segal, a widely respected scholar of the Syriac and Aramaic languages and Professor of Semitic Languages at London University
5. “The Last Jew of Cochin ”, 1993 by Nathan Katz & Ellen S. Goldberg. Dr. Katz is Professor of Religious Studies at Florida International University and is an authority of Jewish history in India . Ms. Goldberg has done extensive research and written several books about Jews in India.

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sorry brother but just because some of your priests converted people doesnt mean they are following christianity properly. the truth is that if you cant bring people into one’s community and if you dont let them follow your traditions and customs then i dont see love in this and its obviouslt dividing christianity. again you speak of pride. its wrong and bible is against it and god is against it.

 

[Filii_Dei]

The customs and traditions of Knanaya Christians have been noted to be tied to that of Jews and the Middle East by many scholars who have studied and researched the Knanaya people. The only people who have compared Knanaya traditions to that of Hindus is Knanaya bashing St. Thomas Christians. I do not think the Catholic Church would allow Knananites to build shrines of Knai Thoma or allow the crozier of Mar Mathew Moolakattu to consist of ships if our history were inaccurate.

Oh, I don’t know about that. We have icons, paintings and shrines to St. George too, but we all know about the historicity of dragons…

Which brings this to mind: if this is the situation in the Western Church, why would it not be possible that your tradition might still be historically inaccurate despite the approval of the Catholic Church? I think we can agree that the Church tries as much as it can to sieve out the purely fictional, but when a tradition has been firmly fixed (as with St George), it is difficult to remove, so how can we say that a similar situation has not occurred with the Knanaya?

 

[Filii_Dei]

Despite the fact that this child would be raised by Knanayas, taught the ways of Knanayas, and knows absolutely nothing about his or her “genetic traditions”, so to speak, in what way would this child be deficient in passing on the traditions of the Knanaya?

My vague guess is that genetic identity (or in traditional-speak, blood lineage), is as much a part of the tradition of the Knanaya as the customs. However, Thomas48 has previously stated that adopted children can become full members of a Knanaya parish, although according to the tradition they would not if it were not for the 1986 proclamation, which led to an interesting discussion about the fairness of such a decision.

It is also helpful to note that an apostate Knanaya can be welcomed back as a full member of the Church if he is of pure lineage. I believe the reasoning is that customs and practices can be learned, but blood lineage cannot simply be acquired by one already born.

 

[SyroMalankara]

If this blood lineage only custom IS really a Knanaya custom, it cannot be said to have come from the Jews or Middle Eastern Christians, as both groups allow conversions into their sects. The righteous Jethro, father in law of the Prophet Moses, along with Zipporah his wife; Queen Makeda of Sheba; the righteous Prophet Obadiah, the righteous Ruth are Biblical examples among others of this allowance. None were born Jewish.

 

[Peter_J]

One possibility to consider is this: That the pope(s) who granted those Knanaya privileges made a mistake … but now that those privileges have been granted, later popes cannot easily revoke them.

 

[MorEphrem]

This makes me think of “And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham” (Matthew 3:9). The absolute exclusivity is just not Christian. No arguments against that, no valid justifications for separation from other non-Knanaya; it is a human division that only possibility causes issue with things like the Great Commission, etc.

 

[Gidge]

On Christmas mass vicars at Knanaya Churches explained to their parishes that under the St.Thomas Syro Malabar Diocese of Chicago, Bishop Mar Jacob Angadiath has decreed that endogamy may no longer be practiced in Knanaya Churches. All Knanaya persons who marry non-Knanaya as well as their non-Knanaya spouses may retain and or be permitted membership into Knanaya Churches.

Knanayas have been practicing endogamy for 1700 years, it is a basic fundamental of our community. This new decree only affects those Knanaya Parishes under the Syro Malabar Diocese of Chicago. The Kottayam Knanaya Diocese in India still strictly practices endogamy. I just do not understand how the St.Thomas diocese has the right to take away this basic Knanaya custom. From the Papal proclamation of Pope St.Pius X under the Catholic Church members of Kottayam Diocese may follow endogamy along with other Knanaya Customs. Does this mean when members of the Kottayam Diocese go else where these rights should be surrendered?

Under the St.Thomas diocese, Knanaya Churches were allowed to be built and if they are true Knanaya Churches endogamy will be practiced. But now with this new decree how can they even be called Knanaya Churches? Do you think this fair? I would like your opinions on this topic.

I don’t think the decree has any teeth, as it is up to the individuals being joined in wedlock who they choose for a spouse (If it is done this way in Knanaya).

If the local ordinary would not allow marriage within a particular group, I believe he’d be transgressing God’s law, and this edict would not have to be obeyed, as we are not bound by unjust laws.

That’s an average layman’s 2¢ on the subject, FWIW.

 

[SyroMalankara]

I don’t think the decree has any teeth, as it is up to the individuals being joined in wedlock who they choose for a spouse (If it is done this way in Knanaya).

If the local ordinary would not allow marriage within a particular group, I believe he’d be transgressing God’s law, and this edict would not have to be obeyed, as we are not bound by unjust laws.

That’s an average layman’s 2¢ on the subject, FWIW.

Gidge, There was no such decree on whom to marry. The Bishop may have stated that non-Knanaya spouses are to be accepted as members of the parish, if they request it.

 

[Brandon_Cal]

My vague guess is that genetic identity (or in traditional-speak, blood lineage), is as much a part of the tradition of the Knanaya as the customs. However, Thomas48 has previously stated that adopted children can become full members of a Knanaya parish, although according to the tradition they would not if it were not for the 1986 proclamation, which led to an interesting discussion about the fairness of such a decision.

It is also helpful to note that an apostate Knanaya can be welcomed back as a full member of the Church if he is of pure lineage. I believe the reasoning is that customs and practices can be learned, but blood lineage cannot simply be acquired by one already born.

Thanks for answering my question about an adopted Knanaya, but the rest doesn’t actually address why endogamy is necessary, it simply asserts that it is necessary.

I should think that the new practice of allowing adopted Knanaya goes to show that endogamy is not at all necessary and the entire practice should be done away with.

 

[Peter_J]

Thanks for answering my question about an adopted Knanaya, but the rest doesn’t actually address why endogamy is necessary, it simply asserts that it is necessary.

It’s a good question, although I don’t think I should be the one to try to answer it.

What strikes me is that the energy that went into this 26-page thread could have gone a long way to making a good FAQ page somewhere (or bettering one that already exists). Just saying.

 

[Thomas48]

In my opinion none of you have the right to say whether endogamy be allowed or disallowed. Since 1599 the Catholic Church has known of the existence of the Knanaya Community and our traditions. They have allowed the Knanaya Community to follow its endogamous nature in full understanding of the custom. From Pope Clement VIII to Pope Francis the First there has been no change in the tradition and it will continue to be administered under Kottayam Knanaya Catholic Metropolitinate and the Syro Malabar Eparchy of Chicago. If you think you know more than our Popes and our Bishops on the what the Church accepts than shame on you.

All of you are trying to make the assumption that the Catholic Church has repeatedly made a mistake for the last four hundred years. I do not think that’s the case, the Knanaya Community has been a faithful Christian Community since 345 A.D and we continue to do so by spreading the word of our Lord. Our endogamous community within the Syro Malabar Church is not hurting anyone. If you marry exogamous than you simply get your membership transferred to the nearby Syro Malabar Diocese or the Diocese of your spouse.You may loose membership to the Knanaya Community but that is understood when you marry exogamous. Some people choose the person they love over the community and that is no problem. Also when you marry exogamous you only loose membership to the Community not the Church.

This thread was started because I questioned the authenticity of the Re- Script of 1986 which was administered upon the Knanaya Catholics under the St.Thomas Syro Malabar Diocese of Chicago. The Re-Script from Rome, stated that all Knanaya Parishes in North America must accept all parishioners who marry exogamous bascially stating that we are no longer allowed to assume membership transfer of the exogamous and the spouse of the exogamous must be given membership. That whole decree interludes with Knanaya Traditions and the basic fundamentals of our community, endogamy. In my opinion the Knanaya Community is a man-made institution linked between the Syro Malabar Catholic Church and the Syriac Orthodox Church. The churches are divine institutions created by Christ himself. The Catholic Church should not have the right to over see and regulate the membership policies of parishes of a man-made community.

From Uraha Mar Yoseph in 345 A.D to Archbishop H.G Mar Mathew Moolakattu of the Knanaya Catholic Diocese and Arch Bishop H.G. Kuriakose Mor Severios of the Knanaya Syriac Orthodox Diocese our endogamous nature has been preserved with only few intermarriages within the local community. A community with such long standing history and tradition deserves respect, not to be called Un-Christian because some of you believe endogamy is against Christs teaching. The Church and its Bishops have accepted us and even granted us diocese’ of high standing. I think it is only fair to say that the Knanaya Catholic Community is unexceptionally and equally a whole part of the Universal Catholic Church.

 

[april32010]

Under the St.Thomas diocese, Knanaya Churches were allowed to be built and if they are true Knanaya Churches endogamy will be practiced. But now with this new decree how can they even be called Knanaya Churches? Do you think this fair? I would like your opinions on this topic.

In my opinion none of you have the right to say whether endogamy be allowed or disallowed.

:ehh:

 

[Thomas48]

Yes, your opinions on the Re- Script of 1986 and if it is justified and lawful towards Knananites in North America, not on endogamy as a whole.

 

[beingchristian]

In my opinion none of you have the right to say whether endogamy be allowed or disallowed. Since 1599 the Catholic Church has known of the existence of the Knanaya Community and our traditions. They have allowed the Knanaya Community to follow its endogamous nature in full understanding of the custom. From Pope Clement VIII to Pope Francis the First there has been no change in the tradition and it will continue to be administered under Kottayam Knanaya Catholic Metropolitinate and the Syro Malabar Eparchy of Chicago. If you think you know more than our Popes and our Bishops on the what the Church accepts than shame on you.

All of you are trying to make the assumption that the Catholic Church has repeatedly made a mistake for the last four hundred years. I do not think that’s the case, the Knanaya Community has been a faithful Christian Community since 345 A.D and we continue to do so by spreading the word of our Lord. Our endogamous community within the Syro Malabar Church is not hurting anyone. If you marry exogamous than you simply get your membership transferred to the nearby Syro Malabar Diocese or the Diocese of your spouse.You may loose membership to the Knanaya Community but that is understood when you marry exogamous. Some people choose the person they love over the community and that is no problem. Also when you marry exogamous you only loose membership to the Community not the Church.

This thread was started because I questioned the authenticity of the Re- Script of 1986 which was administered upon the Knanaya Catholics under the St.Thomas Syro Malabar Diocese of Chicago. The Re-Script from Rome, stated that all Knanaya Parishes in North America must accept all parishioners who marry exogamous bascially stating that we are no longer allowed to assume membership transfer of the exogamous and the spouse of the exogamous must be given membership. That whole decree interludes with Knanaya Traditions and the basic fundamentals of our community, endogamy. In my opinion the Knanaya Community is a man-made institution linked between the Syro Malabar Catholic Church and the Syriac Orthodox Church. The churches are divine institutions created by Christ himself. The Catholic Church should not have the right to over see and regulate the membership policies of parishes of a man-made community.

From Uraha Mar Yoseph in 345 A.D to Archbishop H.G Mar Mathew Moolakattu of the Knanaya Catholic Diocese and Arch Bishop H.G. Kuriakose Mor Severios of the Knanaya Syriac Orthodox Diocese our endogamous nature has been preserved with only few intermarriages within the local community. A community with such long standing history and tradition deserves respect, not to be called Un-Christian because some of you believe endogamy is against Christs teaching. The Church and its Bishops have accepted us and even granted us diocese’ of high standing. I think it is only fair to say that the Knanaya Catholic Community is unexceptionally and equally a whole part of the Universal Catholic Church.

brother your replying based on what you feel, you have to understand that the pope and catholic church can make mistakes, in the past they have killed people and now they dont, they have changed their viewpoint. the pope is a human and we are the church , we can make mistakes. i think the only reason why they let you carryon your endogamy is because you people make a alot fuss about it, sayin we have been following it for centuries. when you converted to christianity you should have stoped that but sadly you have not. i dont understand why you cant bring others to your community and let them follow it, and stop this endogamy. your obviously trying to be different and make yourselves separate from other christians and you lot dont show any love and the only say excuses that your priests have converted people into syro-malabar church, but that does not mean they are living as good christians! TBH you have not replied to my posts with any valid point and all i can say is that knanaya people are living according to how they feel and not doing what god wants them to do and the only reply i have for that is :

Acts 5:29
But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men.

 

[LilyM]

Yes, your opinions on the Re- Script of 1986 and if it is justified and lawful towards Knananites in North America, not on endogamy as a whole.

Lawful possibly but absolutely unjustified.

 

[Peter_J]

If you think you know more than our Popes and our Bishops on the what the Church accepts than shame on you.

Disagreeing with the pope doesn’t necessarily mean thinking you know more than the church. (That’s the kind of reasoning that gave us Vatican I.)

 

[SyroMalankara]

Thomas,

If Tradition is so important to the community, why does the Syro-Malabar Knanaya community have so many latinized parishes? Why did the Syriac Orthodox Knanaya accept the West Syriac Tradition and loose the Chaldean/East Syriac Tradition that Knanaya were originally supposed to have had? How can this one tradition be the only tradition anyone cares about, and is willing to fight about - and it’s not even Sacred?

 

[Filii_Dei]

Thanks for answering my question about an adopted Knanaya, but the rest doesn’t actually address why endogamy is necessary, it simply asserts that it is necessary.

I’m afraid I can’t answer that because I can’t pretend to know the Knanaya answer. I’m still trying to wrap my head around it!

 

[Filii_Dei]

My understanding is that what is lawful is not necessarily what is desirable or correct. I draw my attention to a somewhat different topic of indults on the reception of communion in the hand as opposed to on the tongue in the Latin Church. The common understanding is that while it is permitted for communion to be received on the hand, it does not mean it is the best way. In fact, up to this day, the ideal method of receiving communion is still kneeling and on the tongue.

This is why I have some reservation over simply taking the fact that the Church allowed a certain practice and jumping to the conclusion that there cannot be any problems with it. Nonetheless, I recognise that there is certainly something to be said about the decree having been issued with magisterial authority, and that it has been largely retained when they had every opportunity to scrap it during the 1986 rescript.

 

[Thomas48]

brother your replying based on what you feel, you have to understand that the pope and catholic church can make mistakes, in the past they have killed people and now they dont, they have changed their viewpoint. the pope is a human and we are the church , we can make mistakes.

You think every Pope since Clement VIII has made a mistake? I would think at least one of them would have the wits to disband the Knanaya Community if we were so “Un-Christian”.

Thomas,

If Tradition is so important to the community, why does the Syro-Malabar Knanaya community have so many latinized parishes? Why did the Syriac Orthodox Knanaya accept the West Syriac Tradition and loose the Chaldean/East Syriac Tradition that Knanaya were originally supposed to have had? How can this one tradition be the only tradition anyone cares about, and is willing to fight about - and it’s not even Sacred?

SyroMalankara, I think maybe perhaps you are thinking about the Archdiocese of Ernakulam - Angamaly, that is the Latinized Diocese. Kottayam Archdiocese follows the East Syriac Tradition to its up most understanding in the Syro Malabar Church. For Jacobites I cannot say but perhaps like the large majority of St. Thomas Christians at the time, they did not agree with the Latin customs that were being pushed upon them?

Guys, I don’t mean to cause any controversy here, I am just trying to protect my community and its values. I don’t want it to have a tarnished name and put the wrong idea in the heads of those of you who have never met Knanaya Catholics. Do not judge us just because we practice endogamy, we are just like the majority of Catholics world wide.

We Knanayas fight so hard to maintain our customs because they are the base to the identity of the Knanaya Community. No endogamy means no Knanaya Community, don’t you see? You take away endogamy and the Knanaya Community gets eatin up by the larger community and everything is lost. Amongst the St. Thomas Christians the Knanaya Christians are a tiny minority. I think I have brought up this point before but the ratio would be 100 St.Thomas Christians to 1 Knanaya. If we had not practiced endogamy our community would have vanished centuries ago. Endogamy is the only factor that has kept the Knanaya Community alive to the 21st century. Take away endogamy, give it 50-100 years to play its course and there will be no more Knanaya Community.

I hope you all can understand why we have had all the petitions and protests. When the Re-Scirpt was administered in 1986 it was a slap in the face to Knanayas that our customs were not “acceptable” in North America but when our Eastern Catholic brothers bring their customs to North America there is no adjustment to it. Also please understand like I have said plenty of times before, the Knanaya Community is not a hateful one, endogamy means preservation not expulsion. Knanayas may be extremely prideful and zealous but don’t get the wrong idea and think we’re some sort of supremacist group. We do not discriminate against anyone or any group, that is not the definition of Knanaya Endogamy. We are a loving community of Christians like the rest of Universal Church, please don’t get the wrong idea and judge us just because of endogamy.

It looks as if things are brightening up for the community though. The Archbishop of Kottayams website had a newsreel topic titled “Endogomous Ecclesial Units to be Given to the Knanites”, perhaps the protest document has reached the eyes of Pope Francis?