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Thomas48
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Technically speaking, the Old Testament allowed and supported endogamy. As Christians we are taught to believe in both the Old and New Testament though they can contradict each other in many ways.
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SyroMalankara
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Thomas,
Mar Mathew Moolakattu, is not your Patriarch, Mar George Alencherry is the head and father of your Church. Mar Mathew is subordinate to him ecclesiastically.
What do you mean by “Being and endogamous Knananite himself”? He is a celibate bishop, neither endogamous nor exogamous.
Mar Mathew Moolakattu, is not your Patriarch, Mar George Alencherry is the head and father of your Church. Mar Mathew is subordinate to him ecclesiastically.
What do you mean by “Being and endogamous Knananite himself”? He is a celibate bishop, neither endogamous nor exogamous.
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beingchristian
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THE BIBLE IS NOT CONTRADICTORY…IF IT WAS THEN THE BIBLE IS FALSE.
HOWEVER THAT IS NOT THE CASE because many of the old testament rules were in context with the situtation at that time period. for example jews did endogamy because they were not meant to mix with the pagans, as they were idolatrous. the jews did not do endogamy within their own community like knanaya’s do within christianity.
THERE ARE OTHER RULES WHICH ARE MEANT TO BE FOLLOWED BY JEWS FROM THE OLD TESTAMENTS like not eating pig, not shaving the five temples of your face, and eye for eye, eating kosher meat… im pretty sure knanaya people dont do that and stick with only endogamy, which makes yourselves hypocrites.
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Thomas48
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Ah I think you misunderstood me, what I mean is that Mar Mathew Moolakattu is seen like a Patriarch to Knanaya Catholics, of course we know that Mar George Alencherry is the the Patriarch of the entire Syro Malabar Church but Mar Moolakattu is seen as a figure of leadership for the Knananites. And yes that is true he is a celibate bishop, my wording may have threw you off, what I mean is that the Moolakattu House has always been a prominent and hard faced family when it came to endogamy and Knanaya Traditions, especially Mar Mathews father the late John Sir Moolakattu.
Hypocrites? No need to be rude my friend, and all I meant by contradictory is that like the example you brought up, the Old Testament taught the Jews to be endogamic and the New teaches us to accept all and share our faith, you see the point I’m getting at? That is what I mean by contradictory, that some of the things in the Old Testament don’t match up with the New but that is of course because of new situations and understandings.
And I would think the Knananites were not hypocrites in the greatest sense the reason being there has been influence from many other Christians to end our ancient customs or change them but you don’t see us bringing a single change to them but instead we fight to maintain them.
But of course throughout the centuries of living side by side with regular St. Thomas Christians we lost many of our customs, perhaps in the past Knanayas did eat only Kosher meat/etc, we will never know. One custom though that the Knananites have maintained is Passover Seder which is celebrated every single year on Holy Thursday. I believe that some St. Thomas Christians observe that tradition well, though historical context has served by scholars that this custom was taught to the St.Thomas Christians by the Jewish Christan Diaspora, Knanaya.
“The Pesaha Appam is derived from the ancient bread of Jewish tradition. It has survived and continued as a tradition by the Knanayas that migrated to Kerala from the levant in the early days of Jewish Christianity.”
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Sources**
Menachery G (1973) The St. Thomas Christian Encyclopedia of India, Ed. George Menachery, B.N.K. Press, vol. 2, ISBN 81-87132-06-X, Lib. Cong. Cat. Card. No. 73-905568; B.N.K. Press
Podipara, Placid J. (1970) “The Thomas Christians”. London: Darton, Longman and Tidd, 1970. (is a readable and exhaustive study of the St. Thomas Christians.)
Leslie Brown, (1956) The Indian Christians of St. Thomas. An Account of the Ancient Syrian Church of Malabar, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press 1956, 1982 (repr.)
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beingchristian
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sorry if i offended you but it would make more sense if you followed your traditions and customs fully than picking and choosing; which you prefer.
im sure you can carryon all the of the tradition right now, since now everyone knows what jews followed. so why arent you following it?
lastly, i think your contradicting yourself. in your second paragraph you said , kna’s didnt bring a single change to them and in your last paragraph you say, you have lost many of your customs? huh?
and thankyou if your people brought the pesaha appam custom, it is very nice indeed. at least your sharing that atleast
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Filii_Dei
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I would like to pause here for a moment. Surely that accusation could be leveled toward other Catholics as well? Since the reforms of the 1960s and 1970s, there have been many traditions and customs of the Latin Church that have been (unintentionally) discarded from the Church, but does that mean that Latin Catholics are no longer entitled to call ourselves Catholics and to follow the rest of our traditions that did survive the reforms? Similarly, it could be said that everyone knows what the pre-1960s Catholics followed, so why aren’t we following them?
I think what he is trying to say is that Knanayas did not deliberately water down their traditions nor alter them, but simply forgot them as an unfortunate result of time and history. They cling on to what they still have, lest they lose them like their other traditions.lastly, i think your contradicting yourself. in your second paragraph you said , kna’s didnt bring a single change to them and in your last paragraph you say, you have lost many of your customs? huh?
It’s good to hear charity and kind words.and thankyou if your people brought the pesaha appam custom, it is very nice indeed. at least your sharing that atleast
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SyroMalankara
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It still doesn’t answer the question of the origin of this custom: Jews allow converts in, they allow marriage to converts, Knanaya custom today says no to this. Knanaya also have in the past claimed to have come from Middle East/Persia - this version would make more sense as to endogamy, but this endogamous custom did not come from the Jews but the Manicheans, a small group of which did arrive to India and possibly were, in the South, absorbed into the local Christian group - since having more in common with them than Hindus or others.
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beingchristian
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totally agree
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beingchristian
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I would like to pause here for a moment. Surely that accusation could be leveled toward other Catholics as well? Since the reforms of the 1960s and 1970s, there have been many traditions and customs of the Latin Church that have been (unintentionally) discarded from the Church, but does that mean that Latin Catholics are no longer entitled to call ourselves Catholics and to follow the rest of our traditions that did survive the reforms? Similarly, it could be said that everyone knows what the pre-1960s Catholics followed, so why aren’t we following them?
I think what he is trying to say is that Knanayas did not deliberately water down their traditions nor alter them, but simply forgot them as an unfortunate result of time and history. They cling on to what they still have, lest they lose them like their other traditions.
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beingchristian
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the only reason why i was asking that question is because they only stick with endogamy , when it is separating us. we cant go into their community? what kind of unity is that between christians? the only reason jews did endogamy is because they didnt want to mix with pagans. knanaya are christians now, and they should accept anyone who is christian, i would understand of they are doing endogamy so they dont mix with hindus or muslims. they can still continue their traditions and customs even if they marry non-kna. it can all happen if theyr willing to, and make catholic community more united.I would like to pause here for a moment. Surely that accusation could be leveled toward other Catholics as well? Since the reforms of the 1960s and 1970s, there have been many traditions and customs of the Latin Church that have been (unintentionally) discarded from the Church, but does that mean that Latin Catholics are no longer entitled to call ourselves Catholics and to follow the rest of our traditions that did survive the reforms? Similarly, it could be said that everyone knows what the pre-1960s Catholics followed, so why aren’t we following them?
I think what he is trying to say is that Knanayas did not deliberately water down their traditions nor alter them, but simply forgot them as an unfortunate result of time and history. They cling on to what they still have, lest they lose them like their other traditions.
It’s good to hear charity and kind words.
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Thomas48
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Thank you Filii Dei, you pretty much summed up how I was gonna reply to the comment made by Beingchristian. To add onto this reply, it is said that during the Synod of Diamper in 1599, that the Portuguese forcefully removed many of the religious customs of the St.Thomas Christians and the Knanayas. According to historical context it is said that the Portuguese especially suppressed Knanaya Customs do to the Jewish-Middle Eastern background of the customs.I would like to pause here for a moment. Surely that accusation could be leveled toward other Catholics as well? Since the reforms of the 1960s and 1970s, there have been many traditions and customs of the Latin Church that have been (unintentionally) discarded from the Church, but does that mean that Latin Catholics are no longer entitled to call ourselves Catholics and to follow the rest of our traditions that did survive the reforms? Similarly, it could be said that everyone knows what the pre-1960s Catholics followed, so why aren’t we following them?
I think what he is trying to say is that Knanayas did not deliberately water down their traditions nor alter them, but simply forgot them as an unfortunate result of time and history. They cling on to what they still have, lest they lose them like their other traditions.
It’s good to hear charity and kind words.
You make a good point SyroMalankara but there are two Jewish Groups found in India that practice endogamy at the same level of the Knanaya Christians. These groups being the Cochin and Paradesi Jews of Kerala. Out of these two groups it is has been noted by historians the astonishing similarities between Knanaya Christians and Cochin Jews. The history and traditions of the Cochin Jews are extremely similar to that of the Knanaya Traditions.
Historical context states that the Knanaya migrated in the year 345 and the Cochin Jews migrated in the year 379. The Knanaya were granted 72 privileges by the local king and the Cochin Jews were granted 72 privileges by the local king. The scholar P.M Jussay furthers to asses that the traditional songs of the Knanaya and the Cochin Jews were closely related and sometimes almost exactly the same. For example one of the Knanaya Wedding songs begin “Vazhvanna vazhu ninakake thannen” and the Cochin Jew wedding song begins “Vazhvanna vazhu ninaka yirike”.
From researching the works of P.M Jussay and the similarities he has noted, I believe one conclusion could be that the Knanaya and the Cochin Jews were at a time joined as one community? But the Knanaya later wholey accepted Christianity and become closer to the St. Thomas Christians?
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Sources on the works of P.M Jussay related to the Knanaya and Cochin Jews**
- “The wedding songs of Cochin Jews and of the Knanite Christians of Kerala”, by Prof. P.M. Jussay, a paper submitted at the 39th session of Indian History congress in Hyderabad , 1978.
- “Jewish Contributions to Indian Society” Volume 16, No.2, 1982 by Dr. Shalva Weil, Professor at Hebrew University , Jerusalem
- “ India ’s Jewish Heritage” by Dr. Shalva Weil, Volume 54, No.2, 2002
- “A History of the Jews of Cochin” by Dr. J.B. Segal, a widely respected scholar of the Syriac and Aramaic languages and Professor of Semitic Languages at London University
- “The Last Jew of Cochin ”, 1993 by Nathan Katz & Ellen S. Goldberg. Dr. Katz is Professor of Religious Studies at Florida International University and is an authority of Jewish history in India . Ms. Goldberg has done extensive research and written several books about Jews in India .
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SyroMalankara
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You are speculating wildly. The Cochin Jews and the Chaldean-Syrian Christians in general also had similar practices. That does not mean endogamy. Here a recent wedding of a Cochin Jew, his wife isn’t a Cochin Jew:
hindu.com/2008/12/29/stories/2008122956551800.htm
From another historian/site, you can see that the Syriac Christians and Jews share a commonality, no need for endogamy to bolster such claims:
jewsofcochin.blogspot.com/2012/04/dr-johanna-spectors-documentary-on-jews.html
She described how the Cochin intonation was Sephardic in origin and in many places resembled the cantillation found in Yemen. There was also some relationship with Kurdish sounds, which is ‘one of the oldest elements of all Babylonian cantillation.’
Further: jewsofcochin.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2013-07-14T20:16:00-04:00&max-results=1
As to endogamy, it has fallen by the wayside:
Cochin Jew - Kinship
Kin Groups and Descent. Cochin Jews observed strict caste endogamy, only marrying other Jews. However, there was no intermarriage between “White” and “Black” Jews. Even within the “White” Jewish subgroup, the “White” meyuhasim (privileged), who claimed direct descent from ancient Israel, did not accept their meshurarim, or manumitted slaves, as marriage partners. Similarly, the “Black” meyuhasim did not marry their freed slaves or proselytes. Today in Israel, more than one in every two Cochini marriages is contracted between Cochin Jews and other Israeli Jews.
Kinship Terminology. Cochin Jews in general tend to encourage cross-cousin marriage. Kinship terminology reflects local Malayalam terminology, while in Israel dod (uncle) and doda (aunt) refer to one’s mother’s and father’s siblings without specification.
Read more: everyculture.com/South-Asia/Cochin-Jew-Kinship.html#ixzz2ZuSC5hW0
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Thomas48
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I understand the connections you make but these are blogs you know? The connection found between Knanayas and Cochin Jews is at a scholarly level by Professor P.M Jussay, Dr. Shalva Weil, Dr. J.B Segal, Dr. Nathan Katz, and the researcher Ellen S. Goldberg. All of their writings include inserts and portions that have shown the close relation between the groups of Joseph Rabban (Cochin Jews) and Knai Thoma (Knanaya Christians). What I mean by connections in tradition is not just endogamy but the numerous other traditional aspects that are similar.
But yes it seems that from what the blogs state that the Cochin Jews have put endogamy aside, though it seems that the Paradesi did practice endogamy on an even stricter level than the Knananites. Why I say this is because of the break down of their community, the Paradesi according to a record in 2006, only number in 12 people, that number is most likely even less today. If the community is not large enough, and endogamy is perfectly practiced, the communities population diminishes. Of course this is not the case with Knanaya Christians because as we all know, my community has not practiced perfected enodgamy, as DNA testing supports there has been some admixture.
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beingchristian
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If knanaya community had admixture…then what is the purpose of your community to carryon endogamy? Then why can’t any christian jus come into it…if it was done in the past?
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Thomas48
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This question has already been answered in the thread.
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beingchristian
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not answered properly…you gave excuses…kna’s know their relatives as they are so closely related. so how did admixture happen?..there is no reason to carry it on…since its not pure…and i dont understand what the purpose is for this anyway.
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BrethrenBoy
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If Old Testament Jews followed endogamy to the extreme your community does, wouldn’t King David not be a Jew because he was descended from Ruth, a convert to Judaism?
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beingchristian
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the thing is from what i know of knanaya people is that, they are very stubborn. even if they know they are mixed. they would still continue what theyr doing by excluding other christians and still say we are not segregating. their whole endogamy status is fake and theyr not doing this biblically but in self interest. which is causing problems
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Thomas48
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Knanayas are not a community from that time period, they only came around after the time of Jesus. We do not know much about our ancestors when they were in the Middle East but what we do know is that they lived in the Southern part of Mesopotamia and they strictly followed the teachings of the Prophets Ezra and Nehemiah. Also once again I will reiterate Knanayas were not Jews but Early Christians who still clung to some Jewish practices. The community that I compared to the Knanayas who follow endogamy to such a strict level is the Paradesi Jews of Kerala.
Like I have said before, in the past there was no directory of all the Knanayas in Kerala. There was not a diocese membership form like we have today, so there was no way of knowing if that person was Knanaya or not. It is very hard to keep perfect endogamy for 1700 years continuous. There will of course be some admixture here and there but in the past it was not known if this was admixture because of course there was no such thing as DNA testing etc.
Endogamy though, did prevail because DNA testing of the Knanaya Community has proved that most of the community still retains ancestry from the Middle East. Also another assisting factor is that the DNA testing proved that the Knanaya Community had shown a “private genetic group due to endogamy”, which means members of the Knanaya Community shared private common genetic characteristics.
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beingchristian
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Ok but knanaya are very closely related to each other…so how can you not know, if there was admixture couple of years back when there was way less knanaya members than currently?..I have a dna Results of kna’s and it shows it had a lot of indian contribution…and plus since its mixed anyways…then what’s the point? Your not pure and not even kna because you have to be born of a kna parent and since there was a admixture in the past your ancestory is also mixed up…so I think it would make more sense to accept others…
And plus if knanaya community are strict followers of propher ezra…then you should know why he said to endogamy then…so you won’t loose your belief and won’t do what the pagans do…right now , kna’s should mix with other christians and still continue their traditions and customs and make catholics more united…anyways end of the day, your not accepting other christian brothers and sisters…and is division…
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