Should this be permitted? Your opinions please

[Thomas48]

Ok but knanaya are very closely related to each other…so how can you not know, if there was admixture couple of years back when there was way less knanaya members than currently?..I have a dna Results of kna’s and it shows it had a lot of indian contribution…and plus since its mixed anyways…then what’s the point? Your not pure and not even kna because you have to be born of a kna parent and since there was a admixture in the past your ancestory is also mixed up…so I think it would make more sense to accept others…

And plus if knanaya community are strict followers of propher ezra…then you should know why he said to endogamy then…so you won’t loose your belief and won’t do what the pagans do…right now , kna’s should mix with other christians and still continue their traditions and customs and make catholics more united…anyways end of the day, your not accepting other christian brothers and sisters…and is division…

It is all based on faith, if you have been a member of either Chingavanam Archdiocese or Kottayam Archdiocese since 1911 and 1910, than you are considered a Knanaya Christian. By some level of relation all of these people are Knanaya because Knanaya blood flows within them. Every single Knanaya across the globe can be matched together to find a relation between both people, even if it is such a small relation as in being 5th or 6th cousins it will always be found. Knanaya Christians are literally a giant family stretched across the globe and that is all due to the endogamous nature of the community for the last 1700 years.

Yes, like you said there has been admixture, but with the rise of Kottayam and Chingavanam Archdiocese endogamy was restrengthened because we actually had a list of which families were considered Knanaya. In the past why there was admixture, neither you or I can know. I believe it was some sort of fraudulency in order to allow a Knanaya to marry a Non-Knanaya but keep them in the community, there can be no other reason besides fraudulency since the community was so close-knit.

During the time of Latin Catholic Reign over the Kerala Christians the Portuguese bishops and clergy men had noted numerous times that the Knanaya Christians did not allow any but there own to enter into marital union. Also the fact the the Knanaya Christians kept there churches to there own and did not allow other St. Thomas Christians to step foot into them. It was also recorded that when the Portuguese Bishop Alexio De Menezes had forced the Knananites and St. Thomas Christians to share parishes, blood shed had occurred. Many a time it was seen that the Knanaya Christians and St. Thomas Christians would get into physical brawls with each other. There was a feeling of great enmity between the two groups.

The blame for this hate between the two Christian groups cannot though, be blamed on just the Knanayas. It was exerted by both groups, the most recent case being in the 1900’s. Mar Mathai Makil was installed by the Vatican as bishop of Changanassery Diocese in 1896. Changanassery was home to mostly Syro Malabar Catholics and they resented his presence as bishop because he was Knanaya Catholic. Mar Mathai was harassed and prostrated by the Syro Malabar Catholics to a level where he had to leave Changanessery. He eventually appealed to the Vatican for a diocese strictly for his people (Knanaya Catholics) and soon after in 1911 Kottayam Vicariate was established and he was transferred out of Changanaserry. From understanding this information I hope you can see why I think the the only way admixture occurred was fraudulency. The Knanaya Community never knowingly acknowledged exogamous marriage.

 

[LilyM]

It is all based on faith, if you have been a member of either Chingavanam Archdiocese or Kottayam Archdiocese since 1911 and 1910, than you are considered a Knanaya Christian. By some level of relation all of these people are Knanaya because Knanaya blood flows within them. Every single Knanaya across the globe can be matched together to find a relation between both people, even if it is such a small relation as in being 5th or 6th cousins it will always be found. Knanaya Christians are literally a giant family stretched across the globe and that is all due to the endogamous nature of the community for the last 1700 years.

Yes, like you said there has been admixture, but with the rise of Kottayam and Chingavanam Archdiocese endogamy was restrengthened because we actually had a list of which families were considered Knanaya. In the past why there was admixture, neither you or I can know. I believe it was some sort of fraudulency in order to allow a Knanaya to marry a Non-Knanaya but keep them in the community, there can be no other reason besides fraudulency since the community was so close-knit.

During the time of Latin Catholic Reign over the Kerala Christians the Portuguese bishops and clergy men had noted numerous times that the Knanaya Christians did not allow any but there own to enter into marital union. Also the fact the the Knanaya Christians kept there churches to there own and did not allow other St. Thomas Christians to step foot into them. It was also recorded that when the Portuguese Bishop Alexio De Menezes had forced the Knananites and St. Thomas Christians to share parishes, blood shed had occurred. Many a time it was seen that the Knanaya Christians and St. Thomas Christians would get into physical brawls with each other. There was a feeling of great enmity between the two groups.

The blame for this hate between the two Christian groups cannot though, be blamed on just the Knanayas. It was exerted by both groups, the most recent case being in the 1900’s. Mar Mathai Makil was installed by the Vatican as bishop of Changanassery Diocese in 1896. Changanassery was home to mostly Syro Malabar Catholics and they resented his presence as bishop because he was Knanaya Catholic. Mar Mathai was harassed and prostrated by the Syro Malabar Catholics to a level where he had to leave Changanessery. He eventually appealed to the Vatican for a diocese strictly for his people (Knanaya Catholics) and soon after in 1911 Kottayam Vicariate was established and he was transferred out of Changanaserry. From understanding this information I hope you can see why I think the the only way admixture occurred was fraudulency. The Knanaya Community never knowingly acknowledged exogamous marriage.

You may not be responsible for the start of the tension between Knanaya and non-Knanaya, but you (and those who inflame the situation by getting heated up about issues such as endogamy) are responsible for continuing it, which is equally wrong.

 

[SyroMalankara]

It is all based on faith, if you have been a member of either Chingavanam Archdiocese or Kottayam Archdiocese since 1911 and 1910, than you are considered a Knanaya Christian. By some level of relation all of these people are Knanaya because Knanaya blood flows within them. Every single Knanaya across the globe can be matched together to find a relation between both people, even if it is such a small relation as in being 5th or 6th cousins it will always be found. Knanaya Christians are literally a giant family stretched across the globe and that is all due to the endogamous nature of the community for the last 1700 years.

Yes, like you said there has been admixture, but with the rise of Kottayam and Chingavanam Archdiocese endogamy was restrengthened because we actually had a list of which families were considered Knanaya. In the past why there was admixture, neither you or I can know. I believe it was some sort of fraudulency in order to allow a Knanaya to marry a Non-Knanaya but keep them in the community, there can be no other reason besides fraudulency since the community was so close-knit.

During the time of Latin Catholic Reign over the Kerala Christians the Portuguese bishops and clergy men had noted numerous times that the Knanaya Christians did not allow any but there own to enter into marital union. Also the fact the the Knanaya Christians kept there churches to there own and did not allow other St. Thomas Christians to step foot into them. It was also recorded that when the Portuguese Bishop Alexio De Menezes had forced the Knananites and St. Thomas Christians to share parishes, blood shed had occurred. Many a time it was seen that the Knanaya Christians and St. Thomas Christians would get into physical brawls with each other. There was a feeling of great enmity between the two groups.

The blame for this hate between the two Christian groups cannot though, be blamed on just the Knanayas. It was exerted by both groups, the most recent case being in the 1900’s. Mar Mathai Makil was installed by the Vatican as bishop of Changanassery Diocese in 1896. Changanassery was home to mostly Syro Malabar Catholics and they resented his presence as bishop because he was Knanaya Catholic. Mar Mathai was harassed and prostrated by the Syro Malabar Catholics to a level where he had to leave Changanessery. He eventually appealed to the Vatican for a diocese strictly for his people (Knanaya Catholics) and soon after in 1911 Kottayam Vicariate was established and he was transferred out of Changanaserry. From understanding this information I hope you can see why I think the the only way admixture occurred was fraudulency. The Knanaya Community never knowingly acknowledged exogamous marriage.

Was the dispute due to Knanaya vs. non-Knanaya or differences between Eastern Liturgists vs. Latinizers? If the latter, this is something all Syro-Malabar bishops have had to deal with.

 

[beingchristian]

It is all based on faith, if you have been a member of either Chingavanam Archdiocese or Kottayam Archdiocese since 1911 and 1910, than you are considered a Knanaya Christian. By some level of relation all of these people are Knanaya because Knanaya blood flows within them. Every single Knanaya across the globe can be matched together to find a relation between both people, even if it is such a small relation as in being 5th or 6th cousins it will always be found. Knanaya Christians are literally a giant family stretched across the globe and that is all due to the endogamous nature of the community for the last 1700 years.

Yes, like you said there has been admixture, but with the rise of Kottayam and Chingavanam Archdiocese endogamy was restrengthened because we actually had a list of which families were considered Knanaya. In the past why there was admixture, neither you or I can know. I believe it was some sort of fraudulency in order to allow a Knanaya to marry a Non-Knanaya but keep them in the community, there can be no other reason besides fraudulency since the community was so close-knit.

During the time of Latin Catholic Reign over the Kerala Christians the Portuguese bishops and clergy men had noted numerous times that the Knanaya Christians did not allow any but there own to enter into marital union. Also the fact the the Knanaya Christians kept there churches to there own and did not allow other St. Thomas Christians to step foot into them. It was also recorded that when the Portuguese Bishop Alexio De Menezes had forced the Knananites and St. Thomas Christians to share parishes, blood shed had occurred. Many a time it was seen that the Knanaya Christians and St. Thomas Christians would get into physical brawls with each other. There was a feeling of great enmity between the two groups.

The blame for this hate between the two Christian groups cannot though, be blamed on just the Knanayas. It was exerted by both groups, the most recent case being in the 1900’s. Mar Mathai Makil was installed by the Vatican as bishop of Changanassery Diocese in 1896. Changanassery was home to mostly Syro Malabar Catholics and they resented his presence as bishop because he was Knanaya Catholic. Mar Mathai was harassed and prostrated by the Syro Malabar Catholics to a level where he had to leave Changanessery. He eventually appealed to the Vatican for a diocese strictly for his people (Knanaya Catholics) and soon after in 1911 Kottayam Vicariate was established and he was transferred out of Changanaserry. From understanding this information I hope you can see why I think the the only way admixture occurred was fraudulency. The Knanaya Community never knowingly acknowledged exogamous marriage.

understand this brother, your are mixed , even if it was done fraudulently or not. according to your own manmade rules, you are not kna, since you have mixed ancestory. fights happen in the past, forget about it, forgive. move on…and plus everyone are mostly educated now and are understanding more about the bible and its teaching and history. there wont be no fights or argument unless knanaya keep saying ‘’ we are pure blood, endogamouse for hundreds of years’’ which is fake scientifically and plus your not even knanaya anymore.

 

[beingchristian]

Yes you must be full blooded Knanaya, being born of both Knanaya parents. It is not really possible to become Knanaya through deception because the community is such a close nit one.

current knanaya members are not full blooded knanaya since you even accepted your mixed.
so this whole kna movement is wrong.

 

[Thomas48]

You may not be responsible for the start of the tension between Knanaya and non-Knanaya, but you (and those who inflame the situation by getting heated up about issues such as endogamy) are responsible for continuing it, which is equally wrong.

Was the dispute due to Knanaya vs. non-Knanaya or differences between Eastern Liturgists vs. Latinizers? If the latter, this is something all Syro-Malabar bishops have had to deal with.

This mostly happened before the rise of Syro Malabar Bishops, the events that I mentioned earlier occurred when we had no hierarchy and the Knanaya and St. Thomas Christians were noted as “Syrian Christians” by the Latin Church. The reasons why these two groups had such a hate for each other, I do not know, no historical text ever gives a reason why. Nearing the end of the 20th century and the start of the 21st century all problems between the two groups began to die down. I think I can say wholey that today these two communities live in a peaceful bond with each other.

understand this brother, your are mixed , even if it was done fraudulently or not. according to your own manmade rules, you are not kna, since you have mixed ancestory. fights happen in the past, forget about it, forgive. move on…and plus everyone are mostly educated now and are understanding more about the bible and its teaching and history. there wont be no fights or argument unless knanaya keep saying ‘’ we are pure blood, endogamouse for hundreds of years’’ which is fake scientifically and plus your not even knanaya anymore.

current knanaya members are not full blooded knanaya since you even accepted your mixed. so this whole kna movement is wrong.

Not exactly, the DNA Test that I provided in this thread had the most contributions than any other Knanaya DNA Test. Even so, the contributions only numbered to 10-15 Knanayas, it is not logical to say that 10-15 Knanaya DNA can compromise the identity of an entire community of 300,000 faithful. Unless you did a DNA test on at least a portion of the entire community, no conclusion can be made that the Knanaya Community has been or has not been endogamous.

 

[Thomas48]

You may not be responsible for the start of the tension between Knanaya and non-Knanaya, but you (and those who inflame the situation by getting heated up about issues such as endogamy) are responsible for continuing it, which is equally wrong.

Was the dispute due to Knanaya vs. non-Knanaya or differences between Eastern Liturgists vs. Latinizers? If the latter, this is something all Syro-Malabar bishops have had to deal with.

This mostly happened before the rise of Syro Malabar Bishops, the events that I mentioned earlier occurred when we had no hierarchy and the Knanaya and St. Thomas Christians were noted as “Syrian Christians” by the Latin Church. The reasons why these two groups had such a hate for each other, I do not know, no historical text ever gives a reason why. Nearing the end of the 20th century and the start of the 21st century all problems between the two groups began to die down. I think I can say wholey that today these two communities live in a peaceful bond with each other.

understand this brother, your are mixed , even if it was done fraudulently or not. according to your own manmade rules, you are not kna, since you have mixed ancestory. fights happen in the past, forget about it, forgive. move on…and plus everyone are mostly educated now and are understanding more about the bible and its teaching and history. there wont be no fights or argument unless knanaya keep saying ‘’ we are pure blood, endogamouse for hundreds of years’’ which is fake scientifically and plus your not even knanaya anymore.

current knanaya members are not full blooded knanaya since you even accepted your mixed. so this whole kna movement is wrong.

Not exactly, the DNA Test that I provided in this thread had the most contributions than any other Knanaya DNA Test. Even so, the contributions only numbered to 10-15 Knanayas, it is not logical to say that 10-15 Knanaya DNA can compromise the identity of an entire community of 300,000 faithful. Unless you did a DNA test on at least a portion of the entire community, no conclusion can be made that the Knanaya Community has not been endogamous.

 

[beingchristian]

Not exactly, the DNA Test that I provided in this thread had the most contributions than any other Knanaya DNA Test. Even so, the contributions only numbered to 10-15 Knanayas, it is not logical to say that 10-15 Knanaya DNA can compromise the identity of an entire community of 300,000 faithful. Unless you did a DNA test on at least a portion of the entire community, no conclusion can be made that the Knanaya Community has not been endogamous.

sorry thomas for the late reply, i was abit busy…

10 - 15 knas do have indian contribution, so it doesnt matter if you dont have large sample to do dna test, it still has indian contribution. so it does mean its mixed. you could be saying your were similiar but that dont mean your not mixed.

 

[beingchristian]

sorry thomas for the late reply, i was abit busy…

10 - 15 knas do have indian contribution, so it doesnt matter if you dont have large sample to do dna test, it still has indian contribution. so it does mean its mixed. you could be saying your very similiar to each other according to your dna but that dont mean your not mixed.

 

[Thomas48]

sorry thomas for the late reply, i was abit busy…

10 - 15 knas do have indian contribution, so it doesnt matter if you dont have large sample to do dna test, it still has indian contribution. so it does mean its mixed. you could be saying your were similiar but that dont mean your not mixed.

Not exactly, the DNA test says it took the DNA from the KANA group, KANA (Knanaya Association of North America) is the community of about 100 families of Knanayas in North America who believe endogamy is wrong and as long as a person marries into the Knanya Community they can become Knanaya and the Knanaya man/woman retains his membership within the community. KANA is the rivalry minority to our strong KCCNA (Knanaya Catholic Congress of North America). For all I know the KANA Group most likely added whoever they “believe” is Knanaya into the DNA test.

 

[beingchristian]

Not exactly, the DNA test says it took the DNA from the KANA group, KANA (Knanaya Association of North America) is the community of about 100 families of Knanayas in North America who believe endogamy is wrong and as long as a person marries into the Knanya Community they can become Knanaya and the Knanaya man/woman retains his membership within the community. KANA is the rivalry minority to our strong KCCNA (Knanaya Catholic Congress of North America). For all I know the KANA Group most likely added whoever they “believe” is Knanaya into the DNA test.

so the dna test you published in this catholic forum was ‘KANA’??..yeah atleast KANA are the real knanaya more than the kccna. welll the dna test i got is not KANA but frpm one of your groups who believe to be endogomouse for 1700 years.

 

[Thomas48]

so the dna test you published in this catholic forum was ‘KANA’??..yeah atleast KANA are the real knanaya more than the kccna. welll the dna test i got is not KANA but frpm one of your groups who believe to be endogomouse for 1700 years.

I’m not quite sure what your trying to tell me but let me explain to you what the KANA organization is. Knanaya Catholics under Kottayam Diocese number in around 180,000, when us Knanaya Catholics arrived in the U.S we organized KCCNA for all Knanaya Catholic faithful. A few Knanayas who married exogamous in the U.S found it unfair for Knanaya parishes to implicate endogamy in the U.S because in the U.S there is no Kottayam Diocese, which means no endogamic canon. These resentful Knanayas created the KANA organization which, in 1986, sent the letter to Rome to plea for the abolishing of endogamy in Knanaya parishes. Rome replied with the Re-Script of 1986, which basically states our Knanaya Parishes may practice endogamy but not transfer the membership of those Knananites who marry exogamous.

So you see? The KANA organization is the root of all Knanaya problems today, so it is not right for you say that they are more Knanaya than us. From 1986 onward they caused the detriment of the Knanaya Community. The KANA organization numbers in about a 100-150 families spread from the U.S to even groups in Kerala. The KANA in Kerala protest Kottayam Diocese with street marches shouting slogans like “Kottayam Archdiocese is Un-Christian” its very funny to see because I have no idea why they think they could ever over throw a diocese of 180,000 proud Knananites, with a metropolitan who is just as proud.

After the KANA in the U.S got the Re-Script of 1986 implemented, in form of protest Knanaya priest would not perform exogamous marriages in Knanaya Parishes nor would they allow the spouse and children of the exogamous Knananite membership. This angered the KANA even more and so once again they wrote their letters to the Vatican but this time the Vatican replied saying they have done all they can do and to deal with it themselves. Since then the KANA organization has been silent, even with all there efforts they could not touch the united Knanayas of the U.S (KCCNA).

You see, Knanaya equals Endogamy, the two go hand in hand. Endogamy has been prevalent within the Knanaya Community for centuries, DNA testing shows high levels of Middle Eastern ancestry within the Knanayas with some Indian contribution. Through out this whole forum I have brought up thit fact, as well as the fact that even at a scholarly level the Knanaya Christian Traditions have been compared to that of the Old Middle East and Jews of the time. Yes, endogamy was not perfect but it is very hard to keep endogamy perfect for 1700 years continuous. If it had been completely perfect for the last 1700 years there would not be a Knanaya Community today, the community would have died out centuries ago. I do not know how the community decided who was or was not Knanaya in the past but historical reports do attribute that marrying within the community was very strict.

**Since the creation of the Knanaya Diocese’, whichever families were members of the Southist Community (Knanaya) were given membership to the diocese’. No one was doing a DNA test at the doors of the Cathedral. My point is those people who were apart of the Knanaya Community were considered members of Kottayam and Chingavanam Diocese, since the rise of the diocese if you married exogamous your membership was transferred out of Kottayam and Chingavanam Diocese. The endogamous custom was practiced throughout the centuries but as DNA testing shows though, there was some exception to the endogamic custom for reasons unknown, this resulted in the Indian Contribution you see in Knanaya DNA Tests today. The DNA tests do prove though that the Knanaya created there own private genetic cluster (group) which only results from years of endogamy. Which once again proves the Knanaya have been marrying within their certain group for centuries. **

Im sure you would like to argue the fact that for some reason exception to endogamy was made in the past, like I explained in my earlier posts that was most like fradulency but without DNA tests or rectories during these times, the community likely unknowingly had accepted it and carried on. In my previous posts I explained that the Knanaya Community is a man made community with their own guide rules to membership and those guide rules are that one must be born of both Knanaya parents and when the time comes, one must marry a Knanaya spouse. If these rules are not followed you will lose membership to the Knanaya Community and join the Community of your Non-Knanaya spouse. It is as simple as that and the endogamous Knanaya Community will not allow change nor slight variation to the basic fundamentals of our community. That is why for 27 years we have had this constant fight and protest with the St. Thomas Syro Malabar Diocese, it is all a motive to keep safe the identity of our community.
**
As the previous metropolitan of Kottayam stated when the fate of the identity of the Knanaya Community was in jeopardy “I would rather close down the mission and call my priests back than to compromise on the fundamental principles of the community – Endogamy” H E Mar Kuriakkose Kunnachery.**

 

[LilyM]

But how can anyone say ‘knanaya is synonymous with endogamy’ if the evidence is that those who consider themselves Knananya in every sense in fact are of mixed ethnic heritage and therefore not of endogamous stock? Even partially mixed? Doesn’t make sense at all.

 

[beingchristian]

So you see? The KANA organization is the root of all Knanaya problems today, so it is not right for you say that they are more Knanaya than us. From 1986 onward they caused the detriment of the Knanaya Community. The KANA organization numbers in about a 100-150 families spread from the U.S to even groups in Kerala. The KANA in Kerala protest Kottayam Diocese with street marches shouting slogans like “Kottayam Archdiocese is Un-Christian” its very funny to see because I have no idea why they think they could ever over throw a diocese of 180,000 proud Knananites, with a metropolitan who is just as proud.

After the KANA in the U.S got the Re-Script of 1986 implemented, in form of protest Knanaya priest would not perform exogamous marriages in Knanaya Parishes nor would they allow the spouse and children of the exogamous Knananite membership. This angered the KANA even more and so once again they wrote their letters to the Vatican but this time the Vatican replied saying they have done all they can do and to deal with it themselves. Since then the KANA organization has been silent, even with all there efforts they could not touch the united Knanayas of the U.S (KCCNA).

You see, Knanaya equals Endogamy, the two go hand in hand. Endogamy has been prevalent within the Knanaya Community for centuries, DNA testing shows high levels of Middle Eastern ancestry within the Knanayas with some Indian contribution. Through out this whole forum I have brought up thit fact, as well as the fact that even at a scholarly level the Knanaya Christian Traditions have been compared to that of the Old Middle East and Jews of the time. Yes, endogamy was not perfect but it is very hard to keep endogamy perfect for 1700 years continuous. If it had been completely perfect for the last 1700 years there would not be a Knanaya Community today, the community would have died out centuries ago. I do not know how the community decided who was or was not Knanaya in the past but historical reports do attribute that marrying within the community was very strict.

**Since the creation of the Knanaya Diocese’, whichever families were members of the Southist Community (Knanaya) were given membership to the diocese’. No one was doing a DNA test at the doors of the Cathedral. My point is those people who were apart of the Knanaya Community were considered members of Kottayam and Chingavanam Diocese, since the rise of the diocese if you married exogamous your membership was transferred out of Kottayam and Chingavanam Diocese. The endogamous custom was practiced throughout the centuries but as DNA testing shows though, there was some exception to the endogamic custom for reasons unknown, this resulted in the Indian Contribution you see in Knanaya DNA Tests today. The DNA tests do prove though that the Knanaya created there own private genetic cluster (group) which only results from years of endogamy. Which once again proves the Knanaya have been marrying within their certain group for centuries. **

Im sure you would like to argue the fact that for some reason exception to endogamy was made in the past, like I explained in my earlier posts that was most like fradulency but without DNA tests or rectories during these times, the community likely unknowingly had accepted it and carried on. In my previous posts I explained that the Knanaya Community is a man made community with their own guide rules to membership and those guide rules are that one must be born of both Knanaya parents and when the time comes, one must marry a Knanaya spouse. If these rules are not followed you will lose membership to the Knanaya Community and join the Community of your Non-Knanaya spouse. It is as simple as that and the endogamous Knanaya Community will not allow change nor slight variation to the basic fundamentals of our community. That is why for 27 years we have had this constant fight and protest with the St. Thomas Syro Malabar Diocese, it is all a motive to keep safe the identity of our community.
**
As the previous metropolitan of Kottayam stated when the fate of the identity of the Knanaya Community was in jeopardy “I would rather close down the mission and call my priests back than to compromise on the fundamental principles of the community – Endogamy” H E Mar Kuriakkose Kunnachery.**

what i was saying was that KANA members accept their non-kna spouses and still follow their tradition and culture, which any christian should do. which brings christians united and not left out and that shows love. this is something the kottayam archdiocese doesnt allow because of their own manmade endogamy, which is not biblical and a unchristian practice, which is causing problems because its excluding other christian and their own people just because they marry outside.

thomas what is the difference between your blood and KANA’S blood? i see something. that your MIXED. so overall your not kna at all. and your fighting for something which your not part of. truth hurts but its truth. i see KANA following bible more than you as they are including other chrisitans and they are not bound by their tradition or culture because in the end of the day, we are all christian.

 

[Thomas48]

But how can anyone say ‘knanaya is synonymous with endogamy’ if the evidence is that those who consider themselves Knananya in every sense in fact are of mixed ethnic heritage and therefore not of endogamous stock? Even partially mixed? Doesn’t make sense at all.

what i was saying was that KANA members accept their non-kna spouses and still follow their tradition and culture, which any christian should do. which brings christians united and not left out and that shows love. this is something the kottayam archdiocese doesnt allow because of their own manmade endogamy, which is not biblical and a unchristian practice, which is causing problems because its excluding other christian and their own people just because they marry outside.

thomas what is the difference between your blood and KANA’S blood? i see something. that your MIXED. so overall your not kna at all. and your fighting for something which your not part of. truth hurts but its truth. i see KANA following bible more than you as they are including other chrisitans and they are not bound by their tradition or culture because in the end of the day, we are all christian.

We are Knanaya because we have stayed within the private genetic cluster as the DNA test explained. The DNA test showed that Knanayas retain ancestry to the Middle East, therefore that proves our history of migration but I see that you argue that some of us are mixed. Yes that is true, the Knanaya Community formed into a mixed community, but you see that community of mixed Christians with hailing ancestry from the original 72 families decided to protect endogamy and throughout the centuries they formed the Southist (Knanaya) Community.

As the history cited on Kottayam Archdiocese explains “The Eparchy of Kottayam was erected exclusively for the Southist (Knanaya) Catholics in 1911. The Knanaya Community traces its origin from a group of Jewish-Christian emigrants from Southern Mesopotamia to the South Indian port of Cranganore in AD 345, who formed themselves into an endogamous community”. The keyword there is, “formed”, the community formed themselves into an endogomous community within the centuries, so yes there are people that integrated into the Southist Community but they created the Southist Community.

You understand my point? The Knanaya Community claims ancestry from the Southist Community which was formed by the 72 original Knanaya families and throughout the centuries other people that formed that Southist Community. So it doesn’t matter if we have perfect Jewish or Middle Eastern Ancestry because all that matters is that your family has been apart of the ancient Southist Community. The Southist Community contains DNA from the original 72 families and other people who the 72 families allowed into the community, together those two groups create the Southist Community. Historical context does say that the Knanaya Community did allow people from the Cochin Jew Community to enter into matrimony because of similar customs etc(they also practiced a light fashion of endogamy). So perhaps this is where the Indian Contribution enters into fact? We will never know.

So you see, our ancestry hails from the Southist (Knanaya) Community and in order to remain a member of the Knanaya Community you must maintain, in a researchers terms, the private genetic cluster that the Knanaya Community created. We don’t count the KANA as Knanayas because they married out of the community and therefore lost connection to our ancestral lineage. As the decree for the creation of Kottayam Vicariate states, Kottayam will be erected exclusively for and only for the endogamous Southist Christians.

 

[LilyM]

We are Knanaya because we have stayed within the private genetic cluster as the DNA test explained. The DNA test showed that Knanayas retain ancestry to the Middle East, therefore that proves our history of migration but I see that you argue that some of us are mixed. Yes that is true, the Knanaya Community formed into a mixed community, but you see that community of mixed Christians with hailing ancestry from the original 72 families decided to protect endogamy and throughout the centuries they formed the Southist (Knanaya) Community.

As the history cited on Kottayam Archdiocese explains “The Eparchy of Kottayam was erected exclusively for the Southist (Knanaya) Catholics in 1911. The Knanaya Community traces its origin from a group of Jewish-Christian emigrants from Southern Mesopotamia to the South Indian port of Cranganore in AD 345, who formed themselves into an endogamous community”. The keyword there is, “formed”, the community formed themselves into an endogomous community within the centuries, so yes there are people that integrated into the Southist Community but they created the Southist Community.

You understand my point? The Knanaya Community claims ancestry from the Southist Community which was formed by the 72 original Knanaya families and throughout the centuries other people that formed that Southist Community. So it doesn’t matter if we have perfect Jewish or Middle Eastern Ancestry because all that matters is that your family has been apart of the ancient Southist Community. The Southist Community contains DNA from the original 72 families and other people who the 72 families allowed into the community, together those two groups create the Southist Community. Historical context does say that the Knanaya Community did allow people from the Cochin Jew Community to enter into matrimony because of similar customs etc(they also practiced a light fashion of endogamy). So perhaps this is where the Indian Contribution enters into fact? We will never know.

So you see, our ancestry hails from the Southist (Knanaya) Community and in order to remain a member of the Knanaya Community you must maintain, in a researchers terms, the private genetic cluster that the Knanaya Community created. We don’t count the KANA as Knanayas because they married out of the community and therefore lost connection to our ancestral lineage. As the decree for the creation of Kottayam Vicariate states, Kottayam will be erected exclusively for and only for the endogamous Southist Christians.

But if your revered ancestors themselves were not endogamous, that goes to show that it is quite possible to preserve your traditions and culture without endogamy, just as they did theirs. So what gives?

 

[Thomas48]

But if your revered ancestors themselves were not endogamous, that goes to show that it is quite possible to preserve your traditions and culture without endogamy, just as they did theirs. So what gives?

That was just explained above Lily, people tell Knananites that we have not been following edogamy purely because we are “mixed”. The word mixed does not make sense, because our endogamous ancestors were both the 72 original families that migrated to Kerala and people who they chose to allow into the community. Together these two groups create the Knanaya Community, the 72 families + these people(whoever the families allowed into the community) have been an endogamous community since 345 A.D. Since endogamy was so strict I’m sure whoever the 72 families allowed into the community were given this special privilege because of some distinct reason.

The 72 families + the joinees together formed the endogamous community from which we claim ancestry from. So that is why today you see both Middle Eastern and Indian DNA within the genetic testing of Knanayas, because that is what the Southist Community comprised of throughout its existence. This private genetic cluster of the Knanaya Community is only distinguished from the rest of Kerala Society and attributed to genetic groups of the Middle East only because of the strict practice of endogamy amongst.

 

[SyroMalankara]

That was just explained above Lily, people tell Knananites that we have not been following edogamy purely because we are “mixed”. The word mixed does not make sense, because our endogamous ancestors were both the 72 original families that migrated to Kerala and people who they chose to allow into the community. Together these two groups create the Knanaya Community, the 72 families + these people(whoever the families allowed into the community) have been an endogamous community since 345 A.D. Since endogamy was so strict I’m sure whoever the 72 families allowed into the community were given this special privilege because of some distinct reason.

The 72 families + the joinees together formed the endogamous community from which we claim ancestry from. So that is why today you see both Middle Eastern and Indian DNA within the genetic testing of Knanayas, because that is what the Southist Community comprised of throughout its existence. This private genetic cluster of the Knanaya Community is only distinguished from the rest of Kerala Society and attributed to genetic groups of the Middle East only because of the strict practice of endogamy amongst.

This is making less and less sense. If they allowed others in from the beginning, why not do so today?

 

[beingchristian]

That was just explained above Lily, people tell Knananites that we have not been following edogamy purely because we are “mixed”. The word mixed does not make sense, because our endogamous ancestors were both the 72 original families that migrated to Kerala and people who they chose to allow into the community. Together these two groups create the Knanaya Community, the 72 families + these people(whoever the families allowed into the community) have been an endogamous community since 345 A.D. Since endogamy was so strict I’m sure whoever the 72 families allowed into the community were given this special privilege because of some distinct reason.

The 72 families + the joinees together formed the endogamous community from which we claim ancestry from. So that is why today you see both Middle Eastern and Indian DNA within the genetic testing of Knanayas, because that is what the Southist Community comprised of throughout its existence. This private genetic cluster of the Knanaya Community is only distinguished from the rest of Kerala Society and attributed to genetic groups of the Middle East only because of the strict practice of endogamy amongst.

I think you are the first kna to say …that knanaya community consists of 72 families and plus joinees…all I see from this is that…it doesn’t make any sense at all to make it endogomous and you are segregating, just because you people feel like it…if you peoplew can include others in past then why not now? This is totally wrong! Its very clear!

 

[Thomas48]

The joinee Idea is just a theory of mine because I see a dilemma in this topic. Knanaya Christians claim ancestry from 72 families who migrated to Kerala for either 1 of two reasons. To strengthen the church of the St. Thomas Christians or escape persecution of Christians in the Middle East. Being an already endogamous Jewish-Christian Community upon arriving in Kerala they continue the endogamous practice. Knanaya Christians today claim ancestry from these original 72 families and that they continued endogamy purely but DNA testing proves the migration theory but not that Knanaya have been perfectly endogamous due to some India contribution found in the DNA. A pertaining problem is that there isn’t much written history of Knanayas and the history that is written or recorded has century bumps in between but lets look at what we know.

345 - Knai Thoma, Uraha Mar Yoseph, and 72 families arrive in Kerala.
345 - Copper Plate granted to Knanayas with written permissions.
500 - Marth Mariam Knanaya Church built in Kaduthuruthy.
1518 - Portuguese Laymen notes strife between Thomas Christians and Knanayas
1579 - Portuguese Jesuit writes on the traditions of Knanaya Christians.
1579 - St. Mary’s Knanaya Church built in Idukki.
1603 - Portuguese Officials notes the situation between Thomas Christians and Knanayas has become violent.
1603 - Bishop Francis Roz finds there to be two types of Christians in Kerala, those who are descended from those who St. Thomas baptized and those who descend for Thomas of Cana and his party.
1603, Bishop Francis Roz records that Thomas Christians accept converts from pagans and other people while Cana Christians take no converts.
1603 - Bishop Francis Roz notes the strict endogamous nature of the Knanaya Christians, they are not even willing to allow other Christians to enter there churches.
1604 - Bishop Francis Roz notes that the Knanaya Christians under any circumstance will not make exception to endogamy.
1625 - St. Thomas Knanaya Church built in Punnathara.
1631 - St. Stephens Knanaya Church built in Uzhavoor.
1653 - Knanayas split into Knanaya Catholic and Knanaya Jacobite, due to Koonan Kurishu Oath.
1770 - First written history of the Knanaya Christians documented by Knanaya Jacobites in Malayalam and Syriac.
1910 - Knanaya Jacobite Diocese under the Syriac Orthodox Church erected.
1911 - Knanaya Catholic Vicariate under the Catholic Church erected.
1923 - Knanaya Catholic Vicariate raised to the status of diocese.
1986 - Re-Script Imposed on Knanaya Catholic in the U.S
2005 - Knanaya Catholic Diocese raised to the status of Metropolitanate.
2013 - Knanaya Catholics rally numbering in the thousands to protest the removal of the Re - Script of 1986.