Should this be permitted? Your opinions please

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So there’s the brief of history on Knanaya Christians that we know and from my understanding of the recorded history it does not make sense to me how in anyway the Knanaya Christians would have had intermarriage. The recorded history states the the Knanaya Christians were so strict on being endogamous that they would not even allow other Christians to step inside there parishes. If they didn’t even want other Christians to step foot in there parishes than for what reason would they have intermarriage? You see where I’m going with this?

From understanding this information that is why I have come to the conclusion like I stated earlier the only way people intermarried into the community and the only reason you see Indian contribution within the communities DNA is because of fradulency. Technically speaking if this was the case, the community did not knowingly break tradition but did it unknowingly. And for that reason we continue on with endogamy as our ancestors did but having a diocese and a rectory today makes it a lot easier to know who is Knanaya and who is not. With that being said, today the endogamous nature of the community is preserved without any chance of fraudulency.
 
Departing from traditions is hard.

I guess we of European ancestry have some difficulty understanding endogamy. We think of it as being for health reasons.

But the origination of its discouragement by the Church in Europe arises out of a conscious effort on the part of the Church to break up warring tribalism and encourage a broader “Christendom”. The prohibitions against marrying within degrees of relationship by blood or marriage were much more strict then than now. They were so strict that it was almost impossible to marry within one’s tribe. So, one had to go to some neighboring tribe to find a spouse, or perhaps farther.

We think of early European “tribes” as huge; e.g., Visigoth, Ostrogoth, Burgundian, Frank. But those “tribes” were actually conglomerations of smaller tribes, usually, but not always, of similar linguistics.

Some of that pertained in the past among Catholics in the U.S. My Irish grandmother was appalled that my father married my half-Italian, half-Alsatian mother. She wasn’t “Irish”, you see, and Irish were very clannish at the time. But my grandmother “compromised” by allowing us all to be “Irish” even though we were only half Irish. Nowadays, it would be very hard for American Catholics to marry only within their ethnic group, once one gets outside the east coast.

I do realize this particular community has a much longer history of endogamy than American Irish did. But it seems to me the basic idea is the same.

Regardless, it sounds to me as if this priest is doing is saying it’s ok to marry outside the tribal group. He’s not forcing it.
 
Thomas48 said:
So there’s the brief of history on Knanaya Christians that we know and from my understanding of the recorded history it does not make sense to me how in anyway the Knanaya Christians would have had intermarriage. The recorded history states the the Knanaya Christians were so strict on being endogamous that they would not even allow other Christians to step inside there parishes. If they didn’t even want other Christians to step foot in there parishes than for what reason would they have intermarriage? You see where I’m going with this?

From understanding this information that is why I have come to the conclusion like I stated earlier the only way people intermarried into the community and the only reason you see Indian contribution within the communities DNA is because of fradulency. Technically speaking if this was the case, the community did not knowingly break tradition but did it unknowingly. And for that reason we continue on with endogamy as our ancestors did but having a diocese and a rectory today makes it a lot easier to know who is Knanaya and who is not. With that being said, today the endogamous nature of the community is preserved without any chance of fraudulency.
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thomas, maybe it was fraudulency, but it is mixed now. so your not kna anymore. so either you can accept others and be a proper christian intead of dividing and start welcoming others like a christian should do.
 
beingchristian said:
thomas, maybe it was fraudulency, but it is mixed now. so your not kna anymore. so either you can accept others and be a proper christian intead of dividing and start welcoming others like a christian should do.
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First off, there has never been a DNA test done on even a fourth of the entire Knanaya Community so no one has the right to call us mixed because there are no facts supporting it. If you want you can go ahead and call those people who showed Indian Contribution in there DNA tests mixed but not the entire Knanaya Community.** The only way to determine the genetic background of an entire community is to have test results of at least a portion of the entire community, that would mean you at least need 50,000 contributions**. Now until that test is taken please drop your mixed theory because it is not proven.
 
Thomas48 said:
First off, there has never been a DNA test done on even a fourth of the entire Knanaya Community so no one has the right to call us mixed because there are no facts supporting it. If you want you can go ahead and call those people who showed Indian Contribution in there DNA tests mixed but not the entire Knanaya Community.** The only way to determine the genetic background of an entire community is to have test results of at least a portion of the entire community, that would mean you at least need 50,000 contributions**. Now until that test is taken please drop your mixed theory because it is not proven.
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seriously? how much do you contradict yourself? …sometime you agree with mixture within your community and sometimes you dont. and FYI you dont need large sample. you are very similar to each other but your still mixed. dna test shows indian contribution, and so there is no need to avoid the fact.
 
beingchristian said:
seriously? how much do you contradict yourself? …sometime you agree with mixture within your community and sometimes you dont. and FYI you dont need large sample. you are very similar to each other but your still mixed. dna test shows indian contribution, and so there is no need to avoid the fact.
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Before I was theorizing and alluding to what you call mixture, but the fact remains that you need a lot more contributions in order to come up with a plausible thesis, even the Genetics Company “DNA Tribes” recorded numerous times that more contributions would give a clearer analysis. Once again I attest that not just with genetic testing but all forms of scientific analysis requires the use of numerous subjects of a whole in order to receive accurate results, 10 out of 300,000 is ludicrous and means nothing.
 
Thomas48 said:
Before I was theorizing and alluding to what you call mixture, but the fact remains that you need a lot more contributions in order to come up with a plausible thesis, even the Genetics Company “DNA Tribes” recorded numerous times that more contributions would give a clearer analysis. Once again I attest that not just with genetic testing but all forms of scientific analysis requires the use of numerous subjects of a whole in order to receive accurate results, 10 out of 300,000 is ludicrous and means nothing.
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yes you are right, more samples will show more stronger results, obviously because of more people’s contribution. **however **the 10 kna’s who are from the knanaya community, does show indian contribution and it cant just come from nowhere. therefore it does mean mixed and it also could mean others members of the knanaya community will have indian blood also, since your all connected.

another point, it is wrong to segregate anyway, since it no biblical practice but just man-made practice. i dont think that is making christianity stronger.
 
beingchristian said:
yes you are right, more samples will show more stronger results, obviously because of more people’s contribution. **however **the 10 kna’s who are from the knanaya community, does show indian contribution and it cant just come from nowhere. therefore it does mean mixed and it also could mean others members of the knanaya community will have indian blood also, since your all connected.

another point, it is wrong to segregate anyway, since it no biblical practice but just man-made practice. i dont think that is making christianity stronger.
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We will only know until a test with more contribution my friend 🙂 and technically speaking like I mentioned earlier, endogamy was practiced in the Old Testament and by Jews of Old so one could say that the Knanayas do have a basis for there tradition. When I would use the term “man - made” I would use it to compare the Divine Church of Christ and the man made Knanaya Community, not endogamy.
 
Thomas48 said:
We will only know until a test with more contribution my friend 🙂 and technically speaking like I mentioned earlier, endogamy was practiced in the Old Testament and by Jews of Old so one could say that the Knanayas do have a basis for there tradition. When I would use the term “man - made” I would use it to compare the Divine Church of Christ and the man made Knanaya Community, not endogamy.
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We already know brother 🙂 the dna test was done and it showed indian contribution and that is enough to say others should have it also since your doin endogamy and are connected very closely. The old testament endogamy and the endogamy kna’s do. Are totally different. The old testament endogamy was to avoid the pagans and what your doing is avoiding the christians. Which is not christian practice. You still are avoiding my statements. I told you before manmade practices are wrong and shouldn’t be followed if its not uniting christians. Traditions and culture are totally fine to follow but the endogamy you do is not even jewish. Kna’s are very comfused I guess
 
beingchristian said:
We already know brother 🙂 the dna test was done and it showed indian contribution and that is enough to say others should have it also since your doin endogamy and are connected very closely. The old testament endogamy and the endogamy kna’s do. Are totally different. The old testament endogamy was to avoid the pagans and what your doing is avoiding the christians. Which is not christian practice. You still are avoiding my statements. I told you before manmade practices are wrong and shouldn’t be followed if its not uniting christians. Traditions and culture are totally fine to follow but the endogamy you do is not even jewish. Kna’s are very comfused I guess
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First off, I feel as if we are going in circles for the last 100 or so posts on this thread all of your topics have either been answered or refuted. They’ve also all been off topic for the last 200 comments or so, my original question was if the Re - Script was just and that was all but this has elevated to a whole endogamy lecture. On the first page of this thread I even ever soo openly posted something like, " I don’t care what you think of endogamy or Knanaya History, I am only here asking about the Re - Script". But of course I can’t control what others post in my threads but thats that.

But here we go, I’ve already told you my ideas about genetics so no reason to go there but oh here’s something some what new. Knanaya endogamys first purpose was indeed to keep us away from the pagans “Hindus” of Kerala, there was a saying that went something like “never let your children fall to Hindus”. Since Knanayas had Jewish - Christian ancestry they followed endogamy and this endogamy is similar to that of the Jews of Old except for the fact that Knanayas were in a different land. The reason they continued the practice was perhaps because they just did not want to lose there customs and keep there identity and Knanayas do today.
 
Thomas48 said:
First off, I feel as if we are going in circles for the last 100 or so posts on this thread all of your topics have either been answered or refuted. They’ve also all been off topic for the last 200 comments or so, my original question was if the Re - Script was just and that was all but this has elevated to a whole endogamy lecture. On the first page of this thread I even ever soo openly posted something like, " I don’t care what you think of endogamy or Knanaya History, I am only here asking about the Re - Script". But of course I can’t control what others post in my threads but thats that.

But here we go, I’ve already told you my ideas about genetics so no reason to go there but oh here’s something some what new. Knanaya endogamys first purpose was indeed to keep us away from the pagans “Hindus” of Kerala, there was a saying that went something like “never let your children fall to Hindus”. Since Knanayas had Jewish - Christian ancestry they followed endogamy and this endogamy is similar to that of the Jews of Old except for the fact that Knanayas were in a different land. The reason they continued the practice was perhaps because they just did not want to lose there customs and keep there identity and Knanayas do today.
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yes we have been going in circles because your not understanding the point but just being stubborn.

how is marrying to other christians loosing your customs? other christians groups dont. and i understand the hindu part, but why does this apply to other catholics within india? are we different religion? why are you so bound by tradition? it is not solving anything is it? but making us more divided.
 
beingchristian said:
yes we have been going in circles because your not understanding the point but just being stubborn.

how is marrying to other christians loosing your customs? other christians groups dont. and i understand the hindu part, but why does this apply to other catholics within india? are we different religion? why are you so bound by tradition? it is not solving anything is it? but making us more divided.
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Being stubborn? What? Your saying I should just given to what ever you say? No sir that’s not how a debate works. If I may add, what I was explaining was that the Jews in the Middle East practiced endogamy because they were surrounded by pagans, the Knanaya in Kerala were surrounded by Hindus who were also considered “pagans”, for this reason they continued there custom of endgomy, yes there were St. Thomas Christians around but there customs also differed from the Knanayas.

Other Christians do for a fact practiced endogamy, a few examples include the Mandeans,Mennonites, many Arab Christians, and other Middle Eastern Christian communities. Also do tell me who this is dividing? Knanaya Endogamy doesn’t seem to affect anyone besides those who “speculate” that it affects people. Knanayas who marry exogamous don’t care about the community and tradition, that is why they follow whom they love over the community and there is no fault at all in that. The only people who have openly stated that Knanaya Endogamy has in any form affected them is the KANA Organization.
 
Thomas48 said:
Being stubborn? What? Your saying I should just given to what ever you say? No sir that’s not how a debate works. If I may add, what I was explaining was that the Jews in the Middle East practiced endogamy because they were surrounded by pagans, the Knanaya in Kerala were surrounded by Hindus who were also considered “pagans”, for this reason they continued there custom of endgomy, yes there were St. Thomas Christians around but there customs also differed from the Knanayas.

Other Christians do for a fact practiced endogamy, a few examples include the Mandeans,Mennonites, many Arab Christians, and other Middle Eastern Christian communities. Also do tell me who this is dividing? Knanaya Endogamy doesn’t seem to affect anyone besides those who “speculate” that it affects people. Knanayas who marry exogamous don’t care about the community and tradition, that is why they follow whom they love over the community and there is no fault at all in that. The only people who have openly stated that Knanaya Endogamy has in any form affected them is the KANA Organization.
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so what if customs are different? why are you making it so important? the only reason they go out of you churches is because you dont really allow them in. indians allow others, any they have different customs too but its still flourishing. you just cant bring in other chrsitians communities who practice endogamy to backup your point. it doesnt make them right neither you.
 
I mean you did just say other Christian Communities don’t practice endogamy and I was just pointing out that they do… But I’m curious to know why you believe we should assimilate and forget about our customs?
 
Thomas48 said:
I mean you did just say other Christian Communities don’t practice endogamy and I was just pointing out that they do… But I’m curious to know why you believe we should assimilate and forget about our customs?
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i dont know about you brother, but my only intention is to bring peace and unity. i feel more closer to you now since we debated, and my love to you has only increased.

brother i was just saying you can follow your traditions and culture, and make it even more bigger, if you just include others, and make your community more welcoming and spread love. you wont loose anything. my community hasnt. why should blood and wthnicity be so important?
 
beingchristian said:
i dont know about you brother, but my only intention is to bring peace and unity. i feel more closer to you now since we debated, and my love to you has only increased.

brother i was just saying you can follow your traditions and culture, and make it even more bigger, if you just include others, and make your community more welcoming and spread love. you wont loose anything. my community hasnt. why should blood and wthnicity be so important?
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My friend, that is because the Syro Malabar Community is huge, numbering in the millions, if Knanayas hadn’t practiced endogamy, especially in the past, our customs would have been assimilated within the larger St. Thomas Christian Community centuries ago and there would be no Knanaya Community today.
 
SyroMalankara said:
Mandeans are not Christian, they specifically reject Jesus. Mennonites in general do not practice endogamy, the Amish do to some extant and have severe problems due to it.. Other Middle Eastern Christians like who? I dispute this claim.
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I took a second look at these references and they don’t seem to be cited, so forgive me for bringing them up, you may be correct. But one has to remember that many Christian Communities across the globe practice a form of endogamy but only Knanayas are badgered for it because it is apart of the official membership criteria of our diocese.
 
Well it is commonly known that intermarriage in a singular gene pool isn’t the best because it interesting the probability of having recessive deficiencies. And I do feel citing Middle Eastern Christians as endogamous as an example is a bit unfair; while Middle Eastern Christians do tend to marry other Christians (inter-Catholic/Orthodox is big, probably a response to Islam) of their locale it isn’t explicit custom nor would a Middle Eastern person be effectively disowned for doing contrary.

That being said, reflecting more upon the matter of Knanaya endogamy, it doesn’t seem to be offensive as I initially perceived it. So long as a Knanaya parish/priest were never to turn someone away in a manner that would dispose that person to losing orthodox faith or some psyche-related malignancy I don’t see endogamy as a problematic custom within the confines of episcopally approved perimeters. However, I should reiterate that I see it as somewhat divisive within the Syro-Malabar Church for the reason you stated: if it served for the practical purpose of saying separate from pagans (just as the Middle Eastern Christians marry other Middle Eastern Christians in the Middle East) the elusiveness of Knayaya only marrying Knayaya becomes problematic outside a context were it is unnecessary.
 
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