Should traditions of religious life be allowed to influence parish life?

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It would be a good discussion. I have asked four times on threads with heavy traffic why people feel that there should be little to no influence betwen religious and secular parishes and quite frankly, you were the only who even attempted an answer. It would make a good thread if you would care to start.
We have been having a side bar on a couple of different threads now so I am starting a thread just on this.

How much influence should practices common in religious/community life affect secular parish life? For example, some religious communities keep the tabernacle in a separate chapel, some keep it in the main church. How and when should secular parishes be influenced by these practices?

What is the standard that tells us where the influence comes from? (ie, is this a traditional Catholic practice from religious life, or is this influence from another source?)

I guess follow on questions would be when are such influences acceptable and who gets to decide?
 
Well, I’ll take the easy question - who gets to decide? It’s always the pastor who has to follow guidelines set by the Bishop.

No for the bigger question. I had a teacher who belonged to, what she called, a Carmelite parish. They were a regular parish in our diocese, with secular priests. But they had a large group of TO Carmelites and they did morning and evening prayer according to the Carmelite tradition. For this parish, the influence was very clear.

However, I don’t think there are “rules” about these influences. It’s very fluid. A lot of our parish traditions originated with some religious order at some point in the Church’s history.
 
I believe that even on a theoretical level this is a very dangerous question.

My position is that it is essentially and necessarily disrespectful of the parish tradition and the religious tradition to mix them unless necessary. This is because it invites an external attitude of equivocation between parish life and religious life, which essentially and necessarily waters their very distinct identities down.

Like I said in the SSPX thread, we do different stuff because, well, we’re DIFFERENT!
 
Well many religious run parishes as part of their mission so there isn’t necessarily a mix up in those cases.

There’s many parishes founded and run by various Franciscan communities for example.
 
Well, I’ll take the easy question - who gets to decide? It’s always the pastor who has to follow guidelines set by the Bishop.

No for the bigger question. I had a teacher who belonged to, what she called, a Carmelite parish. They were a regular parish in our diocese, with secular priests. But they had a large group of TO Carmelites and they did morning and evening prayer according to the Carmelite tradition. For this parish, the influence was very clear.

However, I don’t think there are “rules” about these influences. It’s very fluid. A lot of our parish traditions originated with some religious order at some point in the Church’s history.
This is what I’ve been thinking also - that some of the things we are used to and consider the secular parish way are actually adaptions of things done by religious. It just that the adaption or influence started long enough ago that none of us remember it being different.

I’m wondering what things were like in a small parish in 11th century France for example.
 
800 some odd years ago it was a “modern invention” to have the Tabernacle placed in the middle of the Sanctuary, thanks to St. Francis. Now, thanks to said Franciscans, most people think it should be in the middle.

MEANWHILE…

The Benedictines still put it on the side, and have since forever. Now we’re seeing their influence come into play with some churches having the Tabernacle to the side.

Religious practices have always filtered down to secular parish life, and will continue to do so. This is just one solid example of this.
 
Great example, thanks Melchior.

As another example might be choir seating. If a small parish designed their church with choir seating, would that be an acceptable influence from religious life?

And to Croki’s point, if the bishop says the church design is OK, does it matter where the influence came from?
 
I believe that even on a theoretical level this is a very dangerous question.

My position is that it is essentially and necessarily disrespectful of the **parish tradition **and the religious tradition to mix them unless necessary. This is because it invites an external attitude of equivocation between parish life and religious life, which essentially and necessarily waters their very distinct identities down.

Like I said in the SSPX thread, we do different stuff because, well, we’re DIFFERENT!
I understand that lay/secular parish life and religious life are very different. What I don’t understand is where parish tradition comes from. How does one decide what is “organic” traditional and what might be a borrowing from another tradition like religious life?

If we say the bishop decides, what happens if the bishop is also a religious? Or the Pope?
 
Aside from practices, the Church in general have benefited and will benefit from the spirituality of religious orders.
 
To anyone who answers “no”; can the Dominicans get a refund on the Rosary?
 
Might as well stop using the Tridentine Form of Mass, which came from the Franciscans, if I remember correctly.
And you might as well give back the Stations of the Cross and the Nativity Scene too. Those came from Franciscans as well.
 
I think we have to stop being disingenuous here.

The dangerous aspect of this is going into a mad frenzy to do something JUST BECAUSE “the Religious do it” in the case of parishes, or JUST BECAUSE “the parishes do it” in the case of Religious. This reminds me exactly! of what happened after Vatican II, with all the crazy change change chaaaanngeeeee, 95% of it for no reason and not even commanded or asked for by the Council (for the sake of argument, let’s leave the Mass itself out of this one; in this post, I mean architecture, art, music, spirituality, basically everything else). Of course, the cause was different, and this wasn’t parishes versus Religious but was everybody at the same time, but the underlying attitude is the same: change, change, change. This is the fear I have and the danger I see.

There is nothing intrinsically wrong with Religious life and parish life affecting each other. Some of this is to be expected and is natural. However, that is the key word, “natural!” We can’t go out looking for stuff to change in our parishes and then justify it with, “Oh but, but, but the Franciscans of that little village in Czechoslovakia do it!” The influence between Religious practices and parish practices must not be actively avoided, but at the same time, it must be natural and as organic as possible. Therefore, I feel the attitude towards it should be one of “leave it alone and if it happens, it happens.” That is the safest thing, IMO.

It would be absolutely scandalous to build a very plain parish church out of concrete with barely a thing inside of it except an altar and a couple of pews when you know you have money, and then justify it with, “But the [insert Religious here] do it!” Much the same way, it would be absolutely scandalous to make a poor monastic community build a gigantic, lavish, florid high Baroque church and then tell them, “But the parishes do it!”

Do you see what I’m saying? It has to be natural and organic, and NOT something that is actively sought out. That is too dangerous.
 
I think we have to stop being disingenuous here.

The dangerous aspect of this is going into a mad frenzy to do something JUST BECAUSE “the Religious do it” in the case of parishes, or JUST BECAUSE “the parishes do it” in the case of Religious. This reminds me exactly! of what happened after Vatican II, with all the crazy change change chaaaanngeeeee, 95% of it for no reason and not even commanded or asked for by the Council (for the sake of argument, let’s leave the Mass itself out of this one; in this post, I mean architecture, art, music, spirituality, basically everything else). Of course, the cause was different, and this wasn’t parishes versus Religious but was everybody at the same time, but the underlying attitude is the same: change, change, change. This is the fear I have and the danger I see.

There is nothing intrinsically wrong with Religious life and parish life affecting each other. Some of this is to be expected and is natural. However, that is the key word, “natural!” We can’t go out looking for stuff to change in our parishes and then justify it with, “Oh but, but, but the Franciscans of that little village in Czechoslovakia do it!” The influence between Religious practices and parish practices must not be actively avoided, but at the same time, it must be natural and as organic as possible. Therefore, I feel the attitude towards it should be one of “leave it alone and if it happens, it happens.” That is the safest thing, IMO.

It would be absolutely scandalous to build a very plain parish church out of concrete with barely a thing inside of it except an altar and a couple of pews when you know you have money, and then justify it with, “But the [insert Religious here] do it!” Much the same way, it would be absolutely scandalous to make a poor monastic community build a gigantic, lavish, florid high Baroque church and then tell them, “But the parishes do it!”

Do you see what I’m saying? It has to be natural and organic, and NOT something that is actively sought out. That is too dangerous.
Yes, I do see better what you are concerned about. I’ve never really seen that problem though. What I do see and hear about is a parish making a decision for multiple reasons - say they are remodeling and move the tabernacle to a side room. After the remodeling they leave it that way. People find it easier to slip in there to pray, the sanctuary can now be more easily used for concerts, etc. The small room is decorated a bit and is renamed the adoration chapel. All these things are good. Later on however, when the decision is questions and someone says “Oh the Benedicians do it this way” instead of going through the whole history, it sounds like it wasn’t an organic and reasonable decision by that pastor and parish at the time.

Does that make sense to you? I think it some instances this shorthand is used to avoid going through a long history, but also to appease people who are perhaps a little hestitant about things that are outside what they are used to. (Ie, a chapel for the tabernacle as opposed to tabernacle in the sanctuary.)

Edited to add: I’m also opposed to change for change’s sake, no matter what the reasoning.
 
I think a part of the issue is that people are so concerned about Vatican II and what happened after, that they’re afraid of the same things happening. This fear, and fear of the unknown, drives a lot of people into opinions. Some traditionalists don’t understand the charismatic movement for example, and they see it as a threat and form assumptions based off of a couple of web sites or author tract they have read. Not knowing that the older custom is having the Tabernacle off to the side is seen as a threat and a modernist invention. Churches modeled after religious orders is seen as a threat and an affront. A lot of these things are based off of recent events that hurt them, or simply not knowing.

As a result, we have some people ignoring Church history. Things like how the Tridentine Mass came from the Franciscans and still resulted in a big change throughout the Church, with very little gradual procedures. Things like the Divine Office which seeped into the secular parish life, and the Divine Office itself being changed.
 
I think a part of the issue is that people are so concerned about Vatican II and what happened after, that they’re afraid of the same things happening. This fear, and fear of the unknown, drives a lot of people into opinions. Some traditionalists don’t understand the charismatic movement for example, and they see it as a threat and form assumptions based off of a couple of web sites or author tract they have read. Not knowing that the older custom is having the Tabernacle off to the side is seen as a threat and a modernist invention. Churches modeled after religious orders is seen as a threat and an affront. A lot of these things are based off of recent events that hurt them, or simply not knowing.

As a result, we have some people ignoring Church history. Things like how the Tridentine Mass came from the Franciscans and still resulted in a big change throughout the Church, with very little gradual procedures. Things like the Divine Office which seeped into the secular parish life, and the Divine Office itself being changed.
What happened after Vatican II (again, disregarding liturgy itself for sake of argument) was a massive rupture, and that is a historical fact. I am not “afraid of the unknown.” That does not work anyways, because that argument assumes that what is “unknown” is automatically as good as, or better than, what we already have in a given instance. Additionally, it fails on a second level in this instance because I have known for some time now that having the tabernacle in a chapel (assuming that it is truly dignified) is an ancient practice, so it is not “unknown” to me. I have no opinion on the Charismatic Movement other than that, at least for the moment, I see it more genuinely as a personal piety/spirituality movement more than as a broader attempt to “change the Church,” which I appreciate.

I think what people get stuck on is the fact that they equivocate “rupture with tradition” with “it is unknown to Church tradition.” That is not the case; they mean two different things. Rupture with tradition means that we have these practices in order of development: A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I J, K, L; and then all of a sudden, while Church practice is at “L,” someone screams, “Let’s go back to C!” That makes no sense. While C was a venerable tradition in the past, it is not where we are right now. This is further complicated by the fact that someone trying to be wise says, “Well, the Benedictines do C.” That is another flaw in argument. Why does it matter what Benedictines do? We are not Benedictines. Now, does this mean that we can’t adopt C? No! We can. It just means that we have to examine the practice on its OWN merits rather than taking up the practice, “Because we used to do it 1400 years ago,” or, “Because the Benedictines do it.”

It does not matter what the older practice is. That is not my point. My point is that things can’t be justified in parishes with the, “The Religious do it” argument. Nor can things in Religious communities be justified with the, “The parishes do it” argument. That does not mean that Religious and parishes cannot share practices, but it does mean that they should be very cautious unless it works for each individually on the basis that it fits in with their respective charisms. The “sharedness” of a practice should be an incidental, not the driving force behind the adoption of a practice. For example, do lay people in parishes pray the Rosary “because the Dominicans do it?” No, they do it because it is a good prayer and it deepens spirituality. That Religious AND people in parishes do it is just an incidental thing, or perhaps you could say accidental. It just is what it is, which is fine.

However, people repeatedly will argue, “The [insert Religious] have done it for 1100 years so it MUST be okay for our parish to do it!” which shows a clear flaw in thinking, and it makes no sense. It necessarily disregards the fundamental differences between Religious and parishes, that these two groups have very different lives and charisms and purposes. That line of thinking automatically refutes even the consideration of any other information, therefore the argument just fails.

My point is not to keep Religious and parish practices segregated. No, my point is that if one considers adopting a practice of the other, it MUST be judged on if it will work best for the Religious group individually or the parish individually, and NOT be adopted “because they do it” or “because it was done 1400 years ago.”

Do you see what I’m saying?

PS: From everything that I have seen, for most dioceses the Missal as mandated for use by Pius V in 1570 wasn’t a very large change at all. That is, the change cannot be compared to what happened after Vatican II. Although I would like to see more historical discourse on that topic.
 
I think there is more commonality between religious communities and secular parishes than there are differences, and I’m not talking about just liturgy or architecuture. I also believe that there is more diversity among communities of any given order than we realize.

There is a great deal to be learned from the Religious. Stability. Obedience. Humility. Deference. Silence. Stillness. Perseverance. Vigilance.

I went to St. Francis of Assisi parish in Raleigh, North Carolina for a funeral about ten years ago. I knew extremely little about St. Francis at the time and was barely Christian myself. The Church itself was an education. We sat on benches without backs. We kneeled on the brick floor. The building itself spoke about St. Francis. It was beautiful in and of itself. Not totally my style, but beautiful nontheless.

-Tim-
 
When the Pope, or a Bishop, places a Benedictine in charge of something, you can expect Benedictine flavors. When an Benedictine Oblate or Secular Franciscan gets assigned something, you can expect certain flavors. When a Pope is in a Third Order, epxect some of that to happen. A Lay Dominican stays within his/her original parish. They bring Dominican spirituality to the parish they belong to. If a Lay Dominican happens to take on a leadership role, obviously they’re going to utilize and promote a charism.

Using your example of ABCDEFGHIJKLETSGOBACKTOC, if a Benedictine is in charge of designing a Church, where do you think the Tabernacle will be placed? For the Benedictine, it’s been ABC for 1000 years. Like I’ve said before, back then when the Franciscans were moving Tabernacles, that was seen as a “modern invention”, just like some of the stuff people say about “Spirit of Vatican II” and whatnot.

There’s a lot of richness to be drawn from the entire Church, and we have seen that throughout the years. If something is an authentic practice and it has been thought out by a parish, why can it not be adopted?
 
When the Pope, or a Bishop, places a Benedictine in charge of something, you can expect Benedictine flavors. When an Benedictine Oblate or Secular Franciscan gets assigned something, you can expect certain flavors. When a Pope is in a Third Order, epxect some of that to happen. A Lay Dominican stays within his/her original parish. They bring Dominican spirituality to the parish they belong to. If a Lay Dominican happens to take on a leadership role, obviously they’re going to utilize and promote a charism.

Using your example of ABCDEFGHIJKLETSGOBACKTOC, if a Benedictine is in charge of designing a Church, where do you think the Tabernacle will be placed? For the Benedictine, it’s been ABC for 1000 years. Like I’ve said before, back then when the Franciscans were moving Tabernacles, that was seen as a “modern invention”, just like some of the stuff people say about “Spirit of Vatican II” and whatnot.

There’s a lot of richness to be drawn from the entire Church, and we have seen that throughout the years. If something is an authentic practice and it has been thought out by a parish, why can it not be adopted?
This is something I was thinking would be the case also - that if the pastor or bishop belongs to a certain religious community, that it would filter into to his decisions about parish life.

Isn’t it true that popes wear white now because Pope X (who was it?) was a Dominican? What did popes wear before that? Same as cardinals?
 
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